Pathfinder Online User Accounts: Against Multiple Account Cheating

[Nihimon]

My knowledge is second-hand, and there's not a snowball's chance that I could pinpoint it to a specific server, guild, or even year or expansion. It was rare, but not unheard of is the point I was trying to make.

[Waruko]

The fact I never heard of it despite being in and affiliating with those high end raiding guilds for over six years makes it by definition "unheard of." from my point of view. There is "rare" and there is Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian rare. My point is if it does exist it is the latter even less than the latter example. The fact that you got it second hand makes it even more dubious for me to swallow. You understand my skepticism I hope. Frankly, I'm shocked by the idea.

[Nihimon]

I think most of us are shocked by the idea. However, the fact that Ryan spoke of it as a near certainty makes me believe my second-hand source was probably telling the truth.

[Waruko]

OK fair enough, you believe in your friend. I'm going to believe my experience. And if in the PFO EULA its a banning offense to share account info I will make sure to find and report every single settlement that uses such practices as I would in any other MMO.

[Blaeringr]

Don't worry Nihimon, we already know you're not asking for stuff like that before letting people into the inner circle of you're company ;)

And Waruko, if you want to make gold for getting people banned then you can always talk to Tony. He'll ask around and see what it's worth to others and maybe get you an official hit if you're willing to hold off for a client. The price for a perm-hit could be pretty lucrative if your target has made enough enemies.

Don't worry: we sub contract. So you don't have to join us to dabble in assassination from time to time.

[Waruko]

Let's just say when/if WoD comes out I'll be into Blood Hunt politics. (The game will host PERMA-DEATH via Prince and Primogen voting for Blood Hunts.)

Hmmm...keep me posted on that. If I'm going to do a job anyway might as well get paid.

EDIT: I'm not above killing douches for a pay check, nor making that a known fact to anyone else.

[DeciusBrutus]

Yeah, anyone committing a crime over PFO (unauthorized background checks, fraudulent access to a computer system) should probably be charged and their business relationship with Goblinworks terminated.

[Obakararuir]

Waruko wrote:

Let's just say when/if WoD comes out I'll be into Blood Hunt politics. (The game will host PERMA-DEATH via Prince and Primogen voting for Blood Hunts.)

Hmmm...keep me posted on that. If I'm going to do a job anyway might as well get paid.

+1. Blood Hunts are definitely whats up. Gonna be interesting to see how the Jyhad plays out in real time.

[hewhocaves]

With Respect, Ryan.. It's *just* a game. The people who can't make that distinction need psychological or medical assistance. The moment some other user demands my account # and password, or my drivers' license or SSN, he gets banned, screenshotted and reported with the expectation that his account be terminated.

That shouldn't be a difficult or controversial position to hold. After all, we don't play Monopoly with real money...

[Xeriar]

I suspect this is another feature of authenticators that Ryan likes.

No way to get into someone's account without them being physically present means that this sort of verification won't be possible.

[Mogloth]

Xeriar wrote:

I suspect this is another feature of authenticators that Ryan likes.

No way to get into someone's account without them being physically present means that this sort of verification won't be possible.

Quite possibly.

There is no way in the world I give out private numbers and info simply to join a group in a game. The most I would be willing to do would be to take a picture of my login screen with my camera while holding a piece of paper giving the day's date on it.

[Rafkin]

I don't think passive controls to stop botting ever works. They just find ways around it. You need customer service people activley in game stopping them.

It will be especially annoying in PFO to see gold sellers because they will be taking up a coveted spot during the population control phase.

[Misere]

Wow....Holy control freak, Batman!

[Tasarak]

Rafkin wrote:

You need customer service people activley in game stopping them.

This is the only real way to rid of gold spammers/bots/farmers etc. They need to dedicate separate staff to monitor " in-game " 24/7/365. It's an additional cost companies don't want to spend & would rather have software do their work for them. Once again, something hard or expensive to do is not attractive.

[Valkenr]

The only way to make that level of paranoia non-existant, or atleast completely unreasonable, is to make it impossible for real money to exist in the game in any form that is not 100% secure. In EVE, PLEX was real currency, it had a real money value, and could be destroyed or stolen. And when I see: '$20,000 destroyed in battle' that does not make me want to give EVE another shot.

I would suggest that any items bought with real money are stored in a magical bag that cannot be stolen, and cannot be destroyed. There should never be an instance where GW sees a bonus income because $ purchased items are destroyed.

[Ryan Dancey]

@Valkenr - the PLEX or PLEX equivalents getting destroyed are not why groups have high barriers to membership. PLEX is just money. There's a lot of people in EVE who could burn $100 bills for warmth and not care.

What matters is time. Player time spent contributing to the assets and holdings of the group. CCP estimated that the cumulative amount of time required to construct the first Titan (biggest, most complicated item in the game) was greater than the person-years required to build the Great Pyramid.

The time investment is the meaningful value. The richest player in the game still only has 24 hours a day of life. So when thousands and thousands of hours of work by thousands of players gets compromised by a scam or theft or retaliation, it's a HUGE deal. The larger the organizations become, and the more Time Asset they accumulate, the more they take precautions to protect themselves. And ironically the bigger target they become for those who want to inflict that pain.

At a certain point knowing who your character is becomes less important than knowing who YOU are. There are patterns in people's history and behavior that can indicate there is a risk to trust. So organizations implement security on membership.

This is a feature, not a bug. It means the game has earned meaningful value in the hearts & minds of its players. Their actions (both pro and con) are evidence of this underlying value.

[Onishi]

Valkenr wrote:

The only way to make that level of paranoia non-existant, or atleast completely unreasonable, is to make it impossible for real money to exist in the game in any form that is not 100% secure. In EVE, PLEX was real currency, it had a real money value, and could be destroyed or stolen. And when I see: '$20,000 destroyed in battle' that does not make me want to give EVE another shot.

IMO I don't think that would have any impact on the level of paranoia. To an eve player lets say for simplicity $20,000 of plex sells for 100 billion ISK (the in game non cash currency, and no I don't play eve so I have no idea what the actual conversion numbers are). Now perhaps to a non-player/outsider $20,000 USD makes a much better and more sensational headline for the gaming media to pick up on, but to a hardcore corperation of who's blood, sweat and real world wallets were used to make that 100 billion lost in that battle, the cost is the same, the impact is the same. The paranoia to prevent something like that from happening, is also the same. Whether the losses are given in USD, Plex, ISK, Ships, Starbases etc...

IMO, if eve say did not have the plex system at all, everyone payed their set fees per month, and everything was earned in due time. Do you think the removal of a USD number for say a starbase or ship that took lets say a hypothetical 5,000 man hours to build, not to be extremely paranoid about everyone new? Even if you remove all ties of real world money to the game, time = money.

The same will go for pathfinder, Whether the losses are indeed counted in USD, skymetal, castles, gear or good old fashioned man hours the greater the consequence of loss, the greater the levels of paranoia will be, and the greater the steps to prevent such will be. The only way to reduce or prevent paranoia is to make things easy enough to get that people just don't care about it, at which point why even play the game.

[septembervirgin]

Nihimon wrote:

I also want to be clear that I'm not talking about generally requiring Video Voice Chat just to join. I'm talking about requiring it for a very small subset of members who are asking to be given access to extremely high value assets.

I think that if you asked for retina scans it would be well within your purview, given that you're talking about what you do with your guild, presuming that's what you're describing.

I mean, they could always refuse and not have high responsibility. I'm not sure if the player base en masse will want to submit to security checks of that nature, but I think you're forward thinking to consider the value of "time played" and the sadness that irresponsible behavior can cause.

[Nihimon]

@septembervirgin, your name totally makes me think of this old Bangles song...

September Gurls

[GrumpyMel]

Again, from my perspective whatever I do with my time in a game...whether it's contributing to building a great pyramid or a kingdom or a spaceship or just hanging out...that activity has to be inherently fun, regardless of the goal striven for... If it's not and it becomes more "investment" then entertainment and everything is about the end goal (which can be destroyed)... then I think the game inherently fails as it's basic mission of a game, which is to provide entertainment to the players.

I mean, I can see from a practical sense, why organizations might get nervous about allowing access to things that effect the organization as a whole.....but from my perspective it's a very sad statement on gaming as a hobby that they feel the need to do so. When we're more concerned about things that occur outside the context of the game then within, it's a sad statement on the lengths people will goto to "win" in a make believe world thats supposed to about people having fun and fair competition. I feel no differently about it then I do about the guy bribing an umpire at his kids Little League game. YMMV.

[Vixeryz]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

We won't try to stop it but we won't design the game assuming that you're doing it.

hmmm would this also apply to PFS Organized play?

[LazarX]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Here is what will happen once the game has reached a certain level of sophistication and paranoia. Say, 48 hours after launch....

You apply for membership in a Settlement.

The recruiting officer for that Settlement contacts you and directs you to go to a webpage they have built. On that page you're asked a variety of personal questions - your real name, maybe a driver's license or social security number.

You'll also be asked for your account username and password. For all accounts you have.

You'll be asked to disclose all alt characters you have created, across all accounts you may have.

The Settlement will run a background check on you, and flag you for a variety of reasons uncovered in that check as undesirable.

Assuming you clear the background check, a script will be run that will log into your account and extract as much information as possible. It will look through your private messages and through the transaction log.

It will know all the characters on that account.

The script will flag potential alt characters based on behavior patterns, like giving a lot of money to a character or a valuable asset to a character without any reciprocal payment in kind.

The recruiting officer will then compare the list of alts detected to alts disclosed and will flag any ommissions for follow up questioning. Maybe you can convince the recruiter that they're characters of friends that you just give stuff too. Depends on how paranoid the recruiter is.

They'll also flag interactions with any characters known to the Settlement to be trolls, spies, RMT sellers, false fronts, etc. You'll have to explain those interactions as well.

Maintaining two strictly separate identities is very hard, thus few people are able to do it. Of course those that can do it are pretty valuable as double agents, spies, thieves, backstabbers, etc. so it can be lucrative.

There's an entity in EVE (Guiding Hand Social Club) that makes epic stories out of their ability to do this. But for every Guiding Hand...

Let me get this straight Ryan. YOU EXPECT ALL OF THIS TO BE A NORMAL STYLE OF PLAY? I wouldn't have put up with that kind of crap from any MMORG that I've played. My MMORG lives and my private life are separated by nonnegotiable barriers. If there is anything that would make me kiss off PFO, It'd be hard to find a reason greater than this post.

[Bluddwolf]

Wow talk about a necro thread....

I believe Ryan was showing an extreme and probably unique example. Bottom line, there will be multiple accounts and it is in GW's best interest not to limit them.

Goblin Works is a business, selling a product. The more product that they sell, the better their business is able to continue to invest in their product. The more they are able to build upon their product, the more their product will sell.

[Keovar]

Arise, vile thread, from thine eternal slumber!

[Lam]

Ryan: Would GW support multiple multi factor authentication option, paid for by character who wish it, e.g. RSA smart cards or similar ( I use a company paid one on my smart phone but would use a different one for gaming [for oh so many reasons])? It would reduce identity theft. It would not address multiple character having same name, John, but is this John the one I have worked with?

There is no reason I ever need my real identity in game, though GW already knows enough to know who I am. In game that is private, unless I choose to share some brews outside game.

Lam

[Sadurian]

I was planning to have multiple alts, probably just two to start with, but there is no way I would share private information with anyone in an MMORPG. If an in-game organisation requires me to reveal account details or personal data like driving licence numbers, I'll happily just walk away from that organisation.

If the game gets to the point where it become difficult for me to play because I 'have' to join an organisation but can't (due to the above), well, goodbye game.

It's a game. Something to wile away a few hours of leisure time. My Real Life is the important part of the equation.

I'm also unlikely to get so involved as to feel the need to start infiltrating opposition organisations and playing office politics. I don't want to do all that in a game (not that there is anything fundamentally wrong in playing a character that does). I'd be just as happy not joining any larger organisation, but the game expectation is that you need to be part of one or face all sorts of hurdles.

[Xeen]

No group in eve has asked for all of that. If they have, they dont exist now. API keys do all the work, and are non invasive.

I dont think we need to have this discussion again, multiple accounts is going to happen, and GW would be fools to not allow it. I think GW knows this quite well and are not going to stop it.

[Ryan Dancey]

@Xeen - I have been told that at the level above which key Alliance assets are at risk, most of the large EVE organizations require security checks like those I outlined above.

Remember we're talking about <50 entities, and probably < 1,000 humans out of a reported 500,000 accounts, so it's not something that most people will ever encounter.

[Xeen]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

@Xeen - I have been told that at the level above which key Alliance assets are at risk, most of the large EVE organizations require security checks like those I outlined above.

Remember we're talking about <50 entities, and probably < 1,000 humans out of a reported 500,000 accounts, so it's not something that most people will ever encounter.

I was meaning at the levels you stated, you did exaggerate a bit. They do not ask for login info (that I have ever seen, and I was in BoB at one point).

In case your curious, I have been in leadership roles in a couple large alliances. The biggest was about 2500 players (Axiom recruiter).. With others like Aggression (US FC) and LAWN. I was a PVP director in LAWN when we were at about 800 members.

Now, pre API stuff they may have asked for all that. Probably caused a couple accounts to be banned by doing so. I started in 2006.

[Psyblade]

Here is a fun snipbit of info...

- Pandemic Legion has security checks built in as described by Ryan (Been there, seen them personally)
- Goonswarm has it in the way Something Aweful where you have to donate before being accepted in the begining of the game else no corp invite (so they had alot of personal details already that they can look up).

Eve is a game that thrives on Paranoia, impersonation and the likes that will make you wonder wtf is going on (Person I know who scammed in 4 days for well over 400b isk, a bunch of titans and SC's. He put down a note that the service was endorsed by an ISD member in the wiki. This account is now perma banned and the EULA / TOS of eve got a review).

There are people in eve who make a living of infiltrating a corp, clean it out and walk away.
Those old enough might know the BoB incident where someone pushed a button and Band of Brothers lost their sov. He was disgruntled, realised something, switched sides and dropped sov. https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/976-the-mittani-sends-his-regards-d isbanding-band-of-brothers )

welcome to the wonderful world of Eve, where this is happening on a daily basis and where people are living with it.

(2003 old char, former member of DICE, PL, Shinra to name my infamous history ;) )

[Xeen]

Really, PL asks for the login info for membership?

Damn, good way to get people banned.

I remember the 400 bill ISK scam... I didnt know why he was banned though.

Thats interesting though, I heard about groups asking for login info but did not realize it was actually going on in an honest(ish) sense. I lost an account that way, wouldnt figure anyone else would take that chance.

[Psyblade]

Reason it was done was to use Supers / titans. There are people who would get to that level and then park the char somewhere. And when needed, log in and DD / SC / Bridge away!

the 400b isk one is a recent one ;) The scam that changed the TOS

it is an interesting read

[Xeen]

Psyblade wrote:

Reason it was done was to use Supers / titans. There are people who would get to that level and then park the char somewhere. And when needed, log in and DD / SC / Bridge away!

the 400b isk one is a recent one ;) The scam that changed the TOS

it is an interesting read

Ahh, thanks, havent been on his page in a while. I was actually thinking of another big heist from a couple years ago. It wasnt a scam but a theft.

I see exactly where he went wrong. Discussing a CCP employee or volunteer has been against the rules from very early on. Even if it was in an indirect way. Also modifying the Wiki... but have never seen a rule against it... but CCP always say to look there for good info.

The last guy that impersonated Chribba was banned to, couple years ago.

Eh, I have never been much on scamming. Doing price things on the market or contracts, fine... But scamming like that is a bit much lol.

[DeciusBrutus]

Psyblade wrote:

Reason it was done was to use Supers / titans. There are people who would get to that level and then park the char somewhere. And when needed, log in and DD / SC / Bridge away!

the 400b isk one is a recent one ;) The scam that changed the TOS

it is an interesting read

Other than the timing, why is that the scam that caused that change?

[Xeen]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Psyblade wrote:

Reason it was done was to use Supers / titans. There are people who would get to that level and then park the char somewhere. And when needed, log in and DD / SC / Bridge away!

the 400b isk one is a recent one ;) The scam that changed the TOS

it is an interesting read

Other than the timing, why is that the scam that caused that change?

It was the only scam of its kind. (over all)

They really just made it clear, prior to this they did ban people for impersonations... Mostly of CCP employees or volunteers, but other players as well.

[Psyblade]

For a few reasons

1. He edited the wiki to got his name in there so that he could be used as a 3rd party contract (the wiki is in place to help people and now it was used to scam)
2. He posted that an ISD member (a volunteer for CCP) had endorsed this service and thus impersonating a CCP "employee".

Now scamming is known and will always happen in eve.. goons scamming for selling a system, oh so much happening... But those 2 things were a major issue on a change in the TOS.

[Ryan Dancey]

I'm actually really, really surprised CCP banned this player and reversed the trades.

May be a sign that there's been a radical sea-change in attitude about what CCP has to do to keep the game growing.

[Xeen]

There has been lately. Adding a flagging system was a big one.

Although, one of the reasons for the ban is something I have seen going on for a few years. Didnt happen much.

I think his biggest thing was all with the Wiki... CCP has said its the place to go for information, if that can be changed so people can scam then it has nothing useful to offer. The ISD guy was just icing on the cake.

[Psyblade]

the change of the ToS has caused an uproar in the eve community, I am in a corp with one of the CSM members and it is kinda astounishing about what is going on (from what he can release due to NDA etc). But it seems like the CSM isn't happy about the wording of the ToS either and will see what they can do to battle it.

As for the Ban and reversal, it caught me offguard as well, it is one of the rare few that I have heard CCP reverse a scam and payback the owner. Then again, with the usage of an ISD name it might have been a reason to use it to create some goodwill in a cutthroat world that is Eve.

[Ryan Dancey]

When I was there, nothing that player did would have warranted a ban. The company had a very laissez-faire attitude about that sort of thing. Since the player didn't outright pretend to be a CCP staffer or member of a volunteer organization, they would not have acted (in my opinion). They would have chalked the misleading graphic on the wiki up to clever players finding loopholes, and closed the loophole (or written a rule post facto forbidding use of the loophole).

In general, my opinion was that CCP would not seek to reverse this kind of thing, and would not punish this kind of thing, but would instead look to a process improvement to reduce the impact of future similar acts.

It's a big change for them. I wonder if it's an isolated case of someone in management just getting pissed at this player for subverting the wiki, or if it reflects a real change in approach all the way to the top.

[Xeen]

Thats a good question. Could be the wiki, or it could be that he scammed a member of management that relied on the wiki thinking he was dealing with Chribba.

LOL

[Ryan Dancey]

If it were the latter, I'd have hoped that at some level either internal to customer service or at least at the CSM level that someone would have put a stop to that. CCP is ultra-sensitive to the idea that insiders have advantages and the last thing they need is another "scandal" where insiders get "special treatment" (return of scammed ships, return of scammed ISK, scammer banned, etc.) That leads me to think this actually might be something more strategic. It is the summer though, and that's when strange things happen at CCP - the Icelandic staff goes on "holiday" for a month and the skeleton crew has been known to make some whacky decisions.

[Psyblade]

Keep in mind this is a player blog / view on it, but the points raised/posted with answers from a GM and there stance is just scary. And it almost seems like someone took a toy from CCP and used it against them

GM responses (themittani.com)

[Andius]

Do you know what that website is, and who that author is?

You just cited someone who makes his living in EVE by having his henchmen suicide gank high sec miners so they'll pay a protection fee, which I've heard he does not honor.

I would be hardpressed to find an individual who more clearly fits the definition of "griefer" or who's actions more clearly fit the term "toxic behavior". And all this written on a Goon Swarm website. Drinking the Kool-Aid much?

I didn't read the article because I don't really care what EVE devs are up to, and I care even less about his perspective on it. Just figured I'd point that out.

[Psyblade]

*sighs* thanks for your "input" andius.

I think I know more then enough about Goons/Something Aweful/Themittani.com etc.

The article highlighted the GM's responses to valid player questions in regards of impersonating someone else.

[Andius]

Just pointing out the author's bias to those who may be less familiar. James 315 isn't a concerned citizen, he's a scammer of the worst sort. Every comment he makes and snippets of a discussion he offers are going to be presented in order to cast any anti-scamming policies on the worst possible light. It's like a bank robber bringing up safety concerns with a new, and more secure vault. The bank robber doesn't care about anyone's safety, and James 315 doesn't care about anything but getting money from gullible newbs.

[Neadenil Edam]

lol ... why do people resurrect dead threads instead of starting new ones ?

Anyway .... only last week a Wormhole residing online EVE friend of mine had gotten seriously sick of pretty much running her corp single handed (they were in a wormhole so most of her time was spent finding POS fuel) . The rest of the members only logged in once a week at most so she ejected all their ships into space, blew up any she didn't want, stole the ones she did want and dismantled the corp POS and left.

I actually think this was reasonable behavior under the circumstances.

It's doubly amusing because they were in a worm hole and so if any of her former corp mates log in they will find themselves in a space with no ship, no ability to clone jump out and no scanners to find a wormhole exit. Basically they will have to self destruct and lose any implants to escape the wormhole.

[Juda de Kerioth]

septembervirgin wrote:

I hope that you do not permit a person to purchase multiple accounts for her or himself...

Dude, just go buy and play the game... if theres people buying more accounts... then, i guess goblinworks will have more coins...

in the DDO one can create at most 2 players for free per account, and if you want more characters, then you need to bleed coins...

I believe that the Account buyer is an expensive task

[Xeen]

Andius wrote:

Do you know what that website is, and who that author is?

You just cited someone who makes his living in EVE by having his henchmen suicide gank high sec miners so they'll pay a protection fee, which I've heard he does not honor.

To think he makes his Eve living off high sec ganks shows your lack of knowledge of the game.

Andius wrote:

I would be hardpressed to find an individual who more clearly fits the definition of "griefer" or who's actions more clearly fit the term "toxic behavior". And all this written on a Goon Swarm website. Drinking the Kool-Aid much?

Just because his alliance are griefers does not mean he cannot provide information honestly. If you cut out his opinions, the information you are left with in most of his blogs is honest and vast.

Andius wrote:

I didn't read the article because I don't really care what EVE devs are up to, and I care even less about his perspective on it. Just figured I'd point that out.

Then why comment? You should pay attention to what the devs are up to, this game will make changes based on what the predecessors do. Eve is the basis for PFO with tweaks that Ryan did not like in Eve... but of course Fantasy instead of SciFi.

[Bringslite]

Xeen wrote:

Eve is the basis for PFO with tweaks that Ryan did not like in Eve... but of course Fantasy instead of SciFi.

Basis for? With tweaks?

lol

That seems a very simplistic view. Anyone that has been around here awhile and feels that way is either:

a. Not reading enough, ignoring what they read, or misunderstanding what they read.

b. Wishing and propagandizing.