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How does your black blade lose 1/3rd of his pool? Even without taking the extra pool feat this is my results:
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.Regular B B % of pool for going black blade
4 4 100
4 4 100
4 4 100
5 4 80
5 4 80
7 6 85.71428571
7 6 85.71428571
9 7 77.77777778
9 8 88.88888889
11 9 81.81818182
11 9 81.81818182
12 10 83.33333333
12 10 83.33333333
13 10 76.92307692
13 11 84.61538462Average arcane pool size for black blade is 86% over 15 levels. NOT including the part where I can rob my sword over the last few levels... which by the way pushed it to 90% of the regular magus pool over the first 15 levels.
Assumptions are a 16 starting int, +2 int item at 7th and first two stats in int by 8, and then a +4 item by 11. These assumptions were loaded for both sides.
SO THERE. MATH :-)
Also with an arcane pool of 4/5 I wouldn't be blowing it on +int to hit for a round until after the pool is bigger, I'm saving it to enchant my weapon every fight for the most part. You're trying to frame this as though the black blade is horrible, but he loses virtually nothing, especially considering the mandatory weapon bonus he's getting in exchange.
Last edit: I would also suggest the black blade starts out STRONGER than a regular magus due to mandatory enchants. Especially considering he can divert the cost of his weapon to a mile long pearl necklace of pearls of power, giving him more damage far faster than his regular counterpart.
I did not say he loses a third of his pool, but a third of his spell recall ability.
But lets respond to your comments in reverse order to keep it simple.
The black blade without a doubt starts off weaker then every other archetype, it trades it's normal arcane pool for a weaker version of it but doesn't gain the black blade until 3rd level. It spends the first 2 levels of the class weaker then a normal magi for no benefit at all until then. This is the definition of weaker then normal.
Now at 3rd level instead of becoming a more powerful caster it gets a class feature that pushes it MORE towards being a martial class and prevents it from getting access to the most powerful customization ability the class has: Arcana.
This class feature is a drain on the character build forcing you to spend more resources focusing on swinging a piece of metal at a target instead of blasting them to pieces. The lose of Arcana for a 3rd to half of the characters career is a massive lose in flexibility and power but more to the point the reduction in arcane pool points is a more restrictive change in play style.
You lose 4 arcane points over the 20 possible levels of the class, and though you can steal SOME of those back from the blade it is something that you can only do once per day with a full round action and the strong chance of being fatigued when you do it. It's not an in combat ability, and it's NOT an automatic recovery either.
With a smaller pool and fewer possible arcana with a class feature strongly pulling the character towards more martial endeavors Bladebound Magi are more likely to deviate from the spell delivery system the class specializes in then every other archetype available. If they don't then why bother with the archetype in the first place if they aren't going to use what it offers?
Skipping out on the archetype you'd have a full arcane pool and can enchant your weapon every fight and still be able to add your int to hit (and damage if it matters).
Now what I am saying here is that the black blade isn't horrible but it's play style is diametrically opposite of what the Magus is designed to do, be a phenomenal magical damage/debuff delivery system.
The black blade however is an amazing melee damage delivery system for a class that isn't designed to do melee damage.
I can definitely recommend this archetype for the Magi who wants to hand his weapon over to the party fighter so the blade can enhance their damage output while using a different weapon (it would shoot the fighters damage through the roof) but that is metagaming a bit too much for me.
You don't lose any PP by level UNTILL 3rd, at which point you get your black Blade. Untill 3rd level, a Bladebound Magus is just a regular Magus.
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I have an 10th level blade bound magus I don't have any trouble dealing damage. I one shoted two hill giants last night in King of the Stroval stairs. Dealing 116 points with an intensified shocking grasp hit and 125 points on the second giant via crits. I have very seldom used spell recall for my shocking grasps I invested 3000gp on 3 pearls of power 1st level. Lat nights game was the first time I ran out of shocking grasps in a combat. Used spell recall twice for fireballs combined with empowered meta magic rod is a real killer.
As far as arcana goes I have enduring blade and Hasted Assault. I have used Hasted assault lately because I have a wand of haste that I can use to hast all of my party.
I did not say he loses a third of his pool, but a third of his spell recall ability.
You said they gut a third of the arcane pool. NOW you've said they lose a third of spell recall, which is also baffling me. Can you explain how they lose any spell recall? It's not sacrificed in the BB option.
It spends the first 2 levels of the class weaker then a normal magi for no benefit at all until then
No, they have the same for levels 1 and 2, exactly the same. 1+int arcane pool. At third the BB loses the arcana, which neither version has the points to really use much of at this level anyway. BB snags it at 6th anyway, and by that time each has a healthy amount of arcane pool.
Now at 3rd level instead of becoming a more powerful caster it gets a class feature that pushes it MORE towards being a martial class and prevents it from getting access to the most powerful customization ability the class has: Arcana.
You don't count a weapon flurry full attack + shocking grasp as the most powerful? Arcana aren't even as powerful as feats. They're not rage powers. They're nice, but they're demonstrably worth less than a feat to DPR.
You lose 4 arcane points over the 20 possible levels of the class
OK, you just throw out anything after 12 in your previous discussion due to lack of access. Had you limited this to the 12-15 range you already may have seen it's completely a minor difference.
You'll be glad to know that levels 15-20 result in one MORE arcane pool point as a blackblade than a standard magus has assuming he can make the save. Again, math, this is reproducible if you take the time to look at the class option. It's not a 100% recovery, but it is my good save, one I've pumped with Heroism and other items/buffs. I'm not worried.
With a smaller pool and fewer possible arcana with a class feature strongly pulling the character towards more martial endeavors Bladebound Magi are more likely to deviate from the spell delivery system the class specializes in then every other archetype available. If they don't then why bother with the archetype in the first place if they aren't going to use what it offers?
Again, you're forcing a horrible playstyle on a straw man character. In reality go figure out how much you spent on your weapon, and figure out how many pearls of power 1 that is, then figure out how soon a blackblade can afford a dozen level 1 pearls which will give him a full load of shocking grasps for 3 encounters a day. I'd say the blackblade is able to focus on spell delivery better than a standard magus, but that's just my opinion. It's not like I've backed it up with math and a demonstrably more flexible cash pool from not having to ever enchant a weapon. Oh wait. I did do that :-)
Now what I am saying here is that the black blade isn't horrible but it's play style is diametrically opposite of what the Magus is designed to do, be a phenomenal magical damage/debuff delivery system.
The black blade however is an amazing melee damage delivery system for a class that isn't designed to do melee damage.
What I am saying here is that the black blade is in a position to deliver more shocking grasp. For the low price of delaying your first arcana until 6th you get a TON of money in exchange.
I don't think the black blade is amazing at melee damage, he's only got what amounts to the same thing GMW could be giving a normal guy plus a few other nice features (force damage melee!). It's the tons of money he has augmenting him that push him over a standard magus.
I can definitely recommend this archetype for the Magi who wants to hand his weapon over to the party fighter so the blade can enhance their damage output while using a different weapon (it would shoot the fighters damage through the roof) but that is metagaming a bit too much for me.
I'm concerned you've dismissed the blackblade on false grounds. I would ask that you attempt to play one as I have outlined and then comment. Your praise of the blackblade on a single point was misplaced, and every flaw you pointed out was completely blown out of proportion or totally in error in my opinion. I hope you get a chance to give one a shot so you can change your mind on it.
TLDR: -1 arcana and a slight arcane pool decrease in exchange for a free weapon of very high enchantment does not make the blackblade worse, in fact it can make him better. What ruins the blackblade is unfounded claims and assumptions.
And don't think the blade is 'free money.' 9 times out of 10, a GM is going to see that you get a free sword with nice enhancements and he'll seed the adventures with cool items for the others to keep the balance. Yeah, you'll probably stay a bit ahead, but it definitely won't be the full value of the sword.
9 times out of 10 is a rather big exaggeration. Have you in fact played with 10 GM's with a BB magus only to have 9 of them penalize you gold purely because you have a fun plothook blade?
Out of curiosity Mthwei do you have a build or two lying around building a magus under your philosophy? Like a full character or another?
If the other members of your party are being given extra gold to nullify one of your class features, I think I'd consider that a penalty too. It'd be the same if everyone in an item-crafting wizard's party got to buy their magic items at half price, except the wizard.
Out of curiosity Mthwei do you have a build or two lying around building a magus under your philosophy? Like a full character or another?
His full Defiler Hexcrafter Build is in the Hexcrafter Guide.
I took some convincing but it is potent.
It's a class feature. smh
What does 'extra' gold mean? You think you should be able to maintain a huge gold lead because you gave up an arcana and a couple power points? Please. The sword itself has inherent value (else you woudlnt have taken it). There's no reason it should be ignored when balancing the character's wealth.
...uh, yes there is. Because it isn't part of their wealth, it's part of their class abilities. The magus should have the same WBL as every other PC in the party, and that does not include the blackblade.
'Very high enhancement?' Who's exaggerating now? At low levels, the bb is very nice in terms of enhancement. Toward the mid levels it starts to lose it's luster. In the teens, while the fighter is finding stuff like a +4 flaming keen greatsword of doom, you have a +4 sword with a few limited use abilities. (Being able to do force damage is pretty sweet, but you can only do that a couple times a day, for one round.)
Pardon my ignorance, again I based my assumptions on the rules as I know them. WBL is very clear on what you ought to have, and I believe it states you shouldn't own a single item worth more than 20% of your WBL. If you went and opened an excel sheet to show you this you would see the following. Note the fist number is WBL, the second is 20% single item suggested cap, the third is the enhancement a character is supposed to be working with and the fourth is what the BB is.
1st 0 0
2nd 1,000 200 0 0
3rd 3,000 600 0 1
4th 6,000 1200 0 2
5th 10,500 2100 1 2
6th 16,000 3200 1 2
7th 23,500 4700 1 2
8th 33,000 6600 1 3
9th 46,000 9200 2 3
10th 62,000 12400 2 3
11th 82,000 16400 2 3
12th 108,000 21600 3 4
13th 140,000 28000 3 4
14th 185,000 37000 4 4
15th 240,000 48000 4 4
Also note the blackblade is effectively working with all the nice enchants pretty much every combat in my experience because he's charging his sword with his arcane pool. Arcane pool tracks up with the blackblade, so just double the bonus to see the relative power compared to a "normie"
What does 'extra' gold mean? You think you should be able to maintain a huge gold lead because you gave up an arcana and a couple power points? Please. The sword itself has inherent value (else you woudlnt have taken it). There's no reason it should be ignored when balancing the character's wealth....uh, yes there is. Because it isn't part of their wealth, it's part of their class abilities. The magus should have the same WBL as every other PC in the party, and that does not include the blackblade.
Indeed. This is sort of like giving wizard's a discount on scrolls because the party sorcerer gets "free" spells while the sorcerer pays full price. Or raining figurines of wondrous power from the sky because the druid got a neat pet.
It's a penalty in that another character is allowed a benefit over the others purely because of the choices another character made in building themselves.
In this case by giving other party members extra gold to "catch up" with the magus you are penalizing him for a choice of class features nullifying much of the advantage he had in choosing it while maintaining all of the weaknesses.
Agreed. I started a new game (6th level) with a Hexcrafter Blade bound.
Having a FREE +2 weapon was freaking awesome. I got all the usual Xmas tree gear and had enough gold left over for a Ring of Sustenance and a Headband of Intellect.
Everyone else had to make a choice between awesome weapon OR belt/headband/widget of awesome. I got both.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that sees the blade bound as a benefit.
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Well I see I'm going to have to be a bit more specific when I explain my argument highlighting the flaws of this archetype. LEt's go over the main points addressed first.
1. Extra Cash. you keep saying that going Black blade will save you a ton of money by not having to buy a magic weapon, I disagree.
There are only two cases where this is true, one is if you actually intend to spend a fortune on your weapon (a route I highly recommend against doing) OR if you intend to never have a spell storing weapon.
The first case is a bad investment since for a single point from your arcane pool you can equal whatever bonus the BB has. The BB does have the advantage of being able to have an extra weapon enchant or 2 on his blade each combat.
The second case is far more important, Spell Storing is the strongest enchant a magus can have effectively allowing him to rattle off 4 or 5 spells in a single round of combat. The black blade can never do this since spell storing is not a allowed bonus from your arcane pool and you can't add any enchants on BB that doesn't come from his arcane pool.
This alone is enough for me to never take this archetype but I'll ask it this way to you all.
Would you rather be able to drop 40-50D6 a round (at 10th level) or would you want to swing your sword for an extra 6-8pts per swing?
2. Extra weapon damage. I will fully agree that a magus swinging a BB can do more damage with that weapon then most other archetypes. The free enchant and energy attunement the BB offers are extremely nice.
My point has always been that this kind of damage is counter-productive to how the magus is designed to play and penalizes the player more and more as they get into higher level play.
Each time a player makes a choice to increase their melee damage they are not taking the opportunity to increase their spell effectiveness.
Spend a feat on weapon spec means you don't spend that feat on empower, intensify or spell pen. Spend a level increase or a few thousand gold to increase your strength or dexterity to get more or harder swings of your blade means you didn't up your int to get more and more powerful spells.
The magus is a class entirely based around resource management both in and out of combat. Every decision you make for this class has an opportunity cost in missed spell damage and the black blade archetype is constantly nudging you towards reducing that spell damage.
I say this simple because the primary point of this archetype is a melee potent weapon and yes it can be very attractive to be swinging it hard and cutting your foes down (if that's not what you want to do then why'd you take it?) with regular, consistent melee damage. Or you can just hit them with a spell and take them out of the fight in 1 round. The weapon should be a good backup but this archetype pushes towards using the weapon as your primary option instead.
Simply put I embrace the basic rule of the pathfinder system,
past 10th level casters rule melee drools.
I'm not saying you all are wrong about what your understanding of what the black blade can do, what I'm saying is you are playing the wrong game. Higher level games are won or lost on the magical powers that are brought to the table and playing a melee focused arcane caster is like playing chess with 15 pawns. You get a lot of little attacks but you left the big hitters at home.
Once you get to the level of play where 5th level and up spells are getting thrown around caster damage, effectiveness and survivability leaves melee characters choking on their dust. This is one of the more vocal arguments on this board and will stay this way until pathfinder 2.0 (at the earliest). For this reason any choice that prevents you from throwing out 1 more spell or raising your DC by a single point is an option I'm uncomfortable with.
I build for mid-high level play where the game is less forgiving, the Black Blade is an option for low to mid level play.
edit: my Defiler build is how my design philosophy works. It can completely destroy any solo or duo opponent challenge in a single round of combat with a minimal expenditure of resources. Doesn't matter what the target is this build simply destroys it in one round and moves on to the next. All because it embraces the simple rule, melee options are there strictly to deliver spell effects.
The Bladebound is the opposite using arcane power to deliver melee effects.
Again, you're creating a straw man argument and framing it as mine. You're also not acknowledging all the things you've been incorrect on in assuming so I am not sure if I am getting through to you and if its worth continuous explanation.
Spell Storing is the strongest enchant a magus can have effectively allowing him to rattle off 4 or 5 spells in a single round of combat. The black blade can never do this since spell storing is not a allowed bonus from your arcane pool and you can't add any enchants on BB that doesn't come from his arcane pool.
Nothing in RAW is stopping a black blade from being enchanted in addition to its existing enchants. Please reference the rule that states otherwise or withdraw this false claim and recognize your error.
This alone is enough for me to never take this archetype
HOORAY! Problem solved. You can play one now.
Would you rather be able to drop 40-50D6 a round (at 10th level) or would you want to swing your sword for an extra 6-8pts per swing?
Strawman, I never said this is what BB does. Stop it.
I will fully agree that a magus swinging a BB can do more damage with that weapon then most other archetypes.
Your entire second point is trying to force this crappy opinion on me as though I am suggesting a black blade is about physical weapon damage. This causes me to worry about your comprehension of my point.
what I'm saying is you are playing the wrong game.
Of course you think this, because you're not acknowledging anything i've brought up. You continue to try to force the BB to be a melee damage issue.
The Bladebound is the opposite using arcane power to deliver melee effects.
Only when YOU frame it that way. Go reread what I've posted. They play EXACTLY THE SAME. The BB just has one less arcana and a slightly reduced arcane pool in exchange for more cash on hand to buy stuff with.
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Again, you're creating a straw man argument and framing it as mine. You're also not acknowledging all the things you've been incorrect on in assuming so I am not sure if I am getting through to you and if its worth continuous explanation.
Spell Storing is the strongest enchant a magus can have effectively allowing him to rattle off 4 or 5 spells in a single round of combat. The black blade can never do this since spell storing is not a allowed bonus from your arcane pool and you can't add any enchants on BB that doesn't come from his arcane pool.Nothing in RAW is stopping a black blade from being enchanted in addition to its existing enchants. Please reference the rule that states otherwise or withdraw this false claim and recognize your error.
This alone is enough for me to never take this archetypeHOORAY! Problem solved. You can play one now.
Would you rather be able to drop 40-50D6 a round (at 10th level) or would you want to swing your sword for an extra 6-8pts per swing?Strawman, I never said this is what BB does. Stop it.
I will fully agree that a magus swinging a BB can do more damage with that weapon then most other archetypes.Your entire second point is trying to force this crappy opinion on me as though I am suggesting a black blade is about physical weapon damage. This causes me to worry about your comprehension of my point.
what I'm saying is you are playing the wrong game.Of course you think this, because you're not acknowledging anything i've brought up. You continue to try to force the BB to be a melee damage issue.
The Bladebound is the opposite using arcane power to deliver melee effects.Only when YOU frame it that way. Go reread what I've posted. They play EXACTLY THE SAME. The BB just has one less arcana and a slightly reduced arcane pool in...
There is nothing in my comment that was ever directed at you, I am responding to everyone but you at this time. Now if you wish I will respond to your points.
The black blade is a sentient item without a set cost so there is no way to compute how much it actually costs to add an enchantment onto it on top of that it's not a real weapon, it's a class feature so doesn't follow any of the rules for item construction to begin with.
Since there are no rules for improving sentient items and no rules or provision for modifying class features you cannot enchant a black blade.
The rest of your comments are you trying to make it sound like I'm trying to force the black blade to be something more than it is, a melee instrument which I am not. My only comment in that vein is that it is a melee instrument that will likely get the player thinking along the melee route. Noone is forcing anyone to do anything, just simply pointing out that if you build a character designed around a specific weapon that will likely be the focus of that character.
If it isn't then why take the archetype?
Except its enchantment cost is labelled right on it. Also intelligent items can be created right in the rules, so I'm not clear what you're on about. Nothing in RAW suggest you can't enchant a black blade, and you failed to acknowledge that point or cite the relevant rule to back your claim.
Therefor, my point stands, and I assume you're working with a unique set of house rules.
Also: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/intelligent-items
"An intelligent magic item has a base price increase of 500 gp. When determining the total value of an intelligent item, add this value to the sum of the prices of all of its additional abilities gained through being intelligent, before adding them to the magic item's base price."
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Except its enchantment cost is labelled right on it. Also intelligent items can be created right in the rules, so I'm not clear what you're on about. Nothing in RAW suggest you can't enchant a black blade, and you failed to acknowledge that point or cite the relevant rule to back your claim.
Therefor, my point stands, and I assume you're working with a unique set of house rules.
Also: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/intelligent-items
"An intelligent magic item has a base price increase of 500 gp. When determining the total value of an intelligent item, add this value to the sum of the prices of all of its additional abilities gained through being intelligent, before adding them to the magic item's base price."
Not quite, there are 2 distinctly different problems here that you are missing.
First, the rules you have quoted are for CREATING a normal intelligent item and the cost for the special abilities it has. The black blade is not a normal item. It automatically gets new abilities every few levels and none of those abilities have set costs or even use the magic weapon ability chart.
How much does the energy attunement ability cost? Or the teleport blade or the unbreakable enchant. Even if you could come up with a price for each of these and get an arbitrary number what happens when the magus levels and his blade gets a new ability ?
example; lets say it's now counted as a base +5 weapon worth 50,000 gold and you spend 22,000 to put spell storing on it and the magus levels and the blade suddenly becomes a base +6 weapon. To put spell storing on that you needed to spend an extra 26,000 gold so you are out of sync with the regular cost for that +7 item which is completely against the rules.
The second and far more important issue is the black blade is not a real item. It is a class feature like a familiar or a monk's unarmed strike and you cannot modify a class feature. Even if that feature is considered a weapon it can't be modified like this.
We learned this with the monks unarmed strike and the rangers claws. You can't put a permanent enchant on a class feature, every time someone has tried the devs have disallowed it. Your black blade is limited to just the enchants it gets normally and the temporary boosts from spells and the arcane pool.
You're obfuscating. The price of an enchantment is current cost minus future cost. If you're taking it from +1 to +2 with an enchantment, that's pretty basic math.
Would you complain that you can't enchant a normal +1 weapon to +2 because some day that weapon might later be enchanted to +3? I'd need to see an actual source from paizo backing you up.
Your second point, that the black blade isn't a real item, isn't at all valid. You've consistently failed to cite sources for your conclusions, and it happened again.
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If you are not going to bother to look at any of the DOZENS of threads on this board regarding this exact same question then there is no reason to continue this line of questioning. Rehashing the same argument for the dozenth time does not interest me. If you have a GM who will allow you to enchant this class feature then congratulations and have fun.
I will be bowing out of this particular conversation now and returning to the OP's questions at this time.
Good day to you.
Playing Devils advocate here.
I agree with Mathwei that Spell Storing is the Best Enchant a Magus can get on his weapon.
My MOST POWERFUL Magus is actually a straight Hexcrafter with a Familiar (to use wands of Ill Omen) and a Wyroot Scimitar (Made Via Bought Ironwood spell and Masterwork Transformation)upgraded with Spell Storing. Said Magus also has Hair hex to hold rods of Elemental Spell for him.
But I am playing that Magus in a game already. He rules.
So when the opportunity came up to play in a game set in the Worldwound,where energy resistant foes would be the norm, I chose BLADEBOUND HEXCRAFTER for something a bit different and because I knew my spellist would be less useful. Consequently I have a +2 Weapon, that I pump to +4 for fights and extra money that went on getting a higher DC (Headband of Intellect) for my spells AND hexes.
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How do hexes put you on par with the average melee? I can see the appeal of hexcrafter if you want(or need) to branch out and do the debuff thing, but if you have a primary caster it's not worth it imo. Waiting 11 levels for spell recall is really, really painful. Not to mention you can't deliver those hexes with spell combat, so it has no synergy with your primary damage method.Most of them do, the hexcrafter is the exception however. I find that archetype to be leaps and bounds ahead of even the straight magus. Delaying access to spell recall isn't really that big a deal in comparison to all you get from adding at-will hexes and curses to your abilities. It removes the biggest disadvantage the class has (limited magical resources and low attack bonus) while MASSIVELY increasing their everyday abilities and sustained PR. Being on par with average melee'er all day while still being able to burst like the sun when desired is just obscenely entertaining.
Woops, missed this question in the rush of all the others.
Not all Witch hexes are about debuffing, many of them are extremely useful for increasing your effectiveness and damage.Prehensile Hair for instance suddenly replaces your strength bonus with your int bonus and can function like a 2hder while still letting you attack with your normal weapons if you want. That's an extra attack a round which does wonders for your sustined DPR. Add to that the Evil Eye hex (dropping your opponents AC or saves by 2 is like adding +2 to your own attack bonus or the DC's to all your spells), or throw slumber out and one shot (CDG) any opponent who fails. Even picking up the flight hex will give you a +1 to hit and lets you ignore most terrain modifiers.
And this is only looking at the basic hexes, as soon as you get access to the major hexes you start throwing 3D8+paralysis+unconsciousness every round (icy Tomb), turning all outgoing damage the target does back onto itself (retribution) or just take complete control of the creature and have it beat itself to death or jump into a woodchipper at your command (waxen image).
All of these things are at will and cost you nothing more then a standard action while moving into position. The most important fault is it frees you up from having to burn your finite resources to defeat a target since these are effectively infinite resources.
edit: As for the spell recall issue I originally had that concern as well but a very wise optimizer in the Magus thread showed me just how much of an unnecessary crutch it was before 11th level, and how easy it was to just buy a couple of pearls to replace it. Since a hexcrafter has so many options to use (spells, hexes, consumables, etc) to resolve a problem he will use a lot less spells per encounter and so have a much lower need to recover any. The ones he does need to recover are usually only 1st-2nd level spells and the pearls do an excellent job of that.
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Playing Devils advocate here.
I agree with Mathwei that Spell Storing is the Best Enchant a Magus can get on his weapon.
My MOST POWERFUL Magus is actually a straight Hexcrafter with a Familiar (to use wands of Ill Omen) and a Wyroot Scimitar (Made Via Bought Ironwood spell and Masterwork Transformation)upgraded with Spell Storing. Said Magus also has Hair hex to hold rods of Elemental Spell for him.
But I am playing that Magus in a game already. He rules.
So when the opportunity came up to play in a game set in the Worldwound,where energy resistant foes would be the norm, I chose BLADEBOUND HEXCRAFTER for something a bit different and because I knew my spellist would be less useful. Consequently I have a +2 Weapon, that I pump to +4 for fights and extra money that went on getting a higher DC (Headband of Intellect) for my spells AND hexes.
Ranger, HOW are you pumping it to a +4 weapon?
The normal black blade gets an ENHANCEMENT bonus to it based on it's wielders level and the Arcane Pool gives you an ENHANCEMENT bonus as well. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, there is no way to improve that blades bonus without some other class giving you a boost.
The normal black blade gets an ENHANCEMENT bonus to it based on it's wielders level and the Arcane Pool gives you an ENHANCEMENT bonus as well. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, there is no way to improve that blades bonus without some other class giving you a boost.
LOL, they stack. Go read this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus
It's right under arcane pool, it states they stack.
Playing Devils advocate here.
I agree with Mathwei that Spell Storing is the Best Enchant a Magus can get on his weapon.
My MOST POWERFUL Magus is actually a straight Hexcrafter with a Familiar (to use wands of Ill Omen) and a Wyroot Scimitar (Made Via Bought Ironwood spell and Masterwork Transformation)upgraded with Spell Storing. Said Magus also has Hair hex to hold rods of Elemental Spell for him.
But I am playing that Magus in a game already. He rules.
So when the opportunity came up to play in a game set in the Worldwound,where energy resistant foes would be the norm, I chose BLADEBOUND HEXCRAFTER for something a bit different and because I knew my spellist would be less useful. Consequently I have a +2 Weapon, that I pump to +4 for fights and extra money that went on getting a higher DC (Headband of Intellect) for my spells AND hexes.
Ranger, HOW are you pumping it to a +4 weapon?
The normal black blade gets an ENHANCEMENT bonus to it based on it's wielders level and the Arcane Pool gives you an ENHANCEMENT bonus as well. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, there is no way to improve that blades bonus without some other class giving you a boost.
The enhancement given from the use of the Arcane Pool does indeed stack:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
If you are not going to bother to look at any of the DOZENS of threads on this board regarding this exact same question then there is no reason to continue this line of questioning. Rehashing the same argument for the dozenth time does not interest me. If you have a GM who will allow you to enchant this class feature then congratulations and have fun.
I will be bowing out of this particular conversation now and returning to the OP's questions at this time.Good day to you.
Rather than pitch a fit I decided to just do a search for a relevant answer.
Which is as close as you'll get to an FAQ on the matter.
Whether or not that makes or breaks a black blade is really a matter of opinion. Personally I like the idea of ignoring DR and in some cases dealing even more damage.
*cites sources, like a pro*
Thank you! That was highly valuable and also answered the sohei/rapid shot cheese question.
Personally, lack of spell storing doesn't bother me at all.
Whether or not that makes or breaks a black blade is really a matter of opinion. Personally I like the idea of ignoring DR and in some cases dealing even more damage.
This reason is the real strength of a Black Blade and the reason I say Magai are not as far behind a Fighters TO HIT as people suggest.
At 6th level a Fighter has a +2 Weapon (maybe, but he pays for it) Wpn Fcs and Full BAB/Wpn Train.
A Black Blade has a FREE +2 Weapon, is BAB 4, could wpn fcs. And for 1 pool point actually wields a +4weapon.
All up the fighter has a +1 to hit advantage on standard action strikes.
+3 If the magus is using spell combat.
Oh but wait! Any magus would pop Arcane Accuracy for a full attack. Now the fighter is behind. What's more if your GM DOES track WBL then the magus had extra gold for better gear.
My GMs don't need to check WBL, it's generally built into every AP we run. If things get out of balance (too easy/hard) WBL is one of the first things to check to bring it back into balance (award more/less through the next level to balance things out a bit).
Do you guys all seriously play pf like a video game? And more to the point, do your GMs actually run it like one? Do your GMs check the WBL chart every time you kill a boss, and make sure it drops one item for each party member to keep things balanced? In 20+ years of gaming I've never experienced this sort of play. The WBL is a guide, it's not a hard and fast rule. It's an approximation of about the average wealth for a particular character should be on a given level. At any given time, I guarantee your party's entire wealth will not match the chart. And there's this little thing called psychology that goes into the GMs decision for everything he does. If you think your free +4 sword isn't going to weigh on his mind when he's deciding what to give the fighter, you're just fooling yourself. More to the point, you're being more than a little self-centered. You spent less than a feat to get the...
All of which is also not relevant to the argument.
I don't sweat that kind of thing when I gm. Why should I when people far more familiar with the class than I can claim show it as a sub optimal option for them? I've never heard a player complain that the druid got a pet, or that the monk could hit with his hand more than the fighter can with his hammer.
The point being, things like that are relatively subjective. I don't run the games the same way you run your games the same way Lastoth runs his games and PFS runs its games. So what this means is when we argue things in optimization we attempt to stick as much to RAW as makes sense. The WBL guidelines, while yes being a guideline, are pretty much the baseline by which we determine available wealth to pc's.
They are important and hardline to such an extent that most 3pp and freelance publishers try to stick to them when writing new items or adventures.
This is primarily because, as I illustrated, GM's have very different styles from one another and optimization as done on these boards cannot account for every single foible, house rule, and twitch a GM may have.
If this irks you, than so be it.
Next question, where does it say that you ignore items gained via class feature when determining appropriate character wealth?
Serious question. Do you also give the wizard who takes Craft feats less gold as well, since he's getting his items for half price? After all, he's only spending a feat, right?
And in response to the rest of your condescending post, every game I've played in, the group has tried to give out items in a balanced fashion. That usually means giving items to those who can use them best, then allocating the gold from coins and/or sold items to those who didn't get stuffs. In the end it works out to everyone having mostly the same wealth, though that may not be exactly WBL depending on the ebb and flow of treasure found.
So even if the DM specifically included weapon drops to give other members of a magus' party enchanted weapons, the magus would wind up having the gold to buy approximately the same value in other magic items.
That's how all my groups do it.
Me and Mathwei did a hexcrafter guide. Check it out and you'll see why
What? No link? But, but, im soooo lazy...
now i have to go find it
Are you seriously suggesting that a wizard crafting custom items for the entire group at half cost for the price of a feat is somehow not as good as a BB?
Honestly, it would never even occur to me that he should get the same amount of treasure, it just seems so greedy.
This kind of bothers me. So your saying that if a paladin chose his divine bond to be with his sword, in your group said paladin would get less share of the treasure?
Just trying to understand what you are saying.
to be fair I've run with my group of friends for some time. Our loot policy is always fluid, but we've never had a single disagreement about it I don't think. Often times it is recognized that the melee guys will get more magic items (all the defensive items + armor + weapons) and over time will get more stuff anyway. When we agree to sell stuff the split is equal, but of the treasure found I'd say it skews heavily to the melee.
You yourself say you distribute loot in a 'balanced' fashion. If one of the players has a BB, is that not going to factor into the 'balancing' equation?
Absolutely not. It's part of his class. Unless we want to start tallying up the value of the cleric's Channel Energy ability or the druid's animal companion, no, we will not be counting the magus' black blade as part of his wealth.
Sure, he'll get a bigger cut of the coin, like everyone else, but does your DM actually hand out coin in the amount of 5x(dropped items' value)? I've never seen that.
Not sure what you mean here. No, the gold isn't figured out exactly. It's a self correcting system over time. One session the fighter might find a +3 sword. For the next several sessions he might get no gold until things start evening out, etc.
In any case, if your group allows it, sure, leech an extra 100k or so gold (counting all it's abilities) by the end of your career by taking the BB for essentially no cost.
How is it "leeching" to get a fair share? You baffle me. If the black blade is counted against the magus, then we need to figure out how much it'd cost to craft an item that casts 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells 6x a day, and charge it to the wizard's wealth, since as a magus I don't have that, and the wizard gets it "for free." Damn wizards, leeching all my gold. The nerve.
Then we must immediately bill the Barbarian for his ungodly hit point pool. That's going to cost him!
.-. right.... anyways.... I think I got what I needed from this guide long ago. At lvl 1 I was already dealing 3d6 shocking grasps and generally pulling my weight.
Thank you for the help. Here is what I revised.
1)Spell Focus(Evok), Spell Specialization(shocking grasp), Arcane Strike
3)Weapon Proficiency(one-handed bastard sword)
5)intensified spell(shocking grasp), Weapon Focus(one-handed bastard Sword)
I will figure the rest out as I go, I am now focusing more on my ability to hit with my weapons, not damage, and also on my ability to cast. With magical lineage, spell specialization, and intensified spell, at lvl 8 my shocking grasps will deal 10d6 each. I will be doing bladebound because I have the ability to use my favored class bonus on arcane pool points rather than hp since our DM gave us all extra hp to work with. This is because of the scale of the battle we are fighting in. They were quite large, and no regular lvl 1 would be able to handle it without all of the extra stuff our DM supplied us with. With the favored class bonus every level I will be earning an extra point in my arcana pool every 4th lvl.
How on earth could anyone think the BB is "no cost". Diminished arcane pool. An arcana and can never have familiar. The pool is not to hard to deal with as the BB gets a pool of its own. But not being able to pull all the tricks one can with a proper familiar and an arcana is far from free.
I would be hard pressed to call BB better then standard Magus. Just different and flavorful.