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... And How to Avoid It Happening In Your Game.
This is a continuation of this discussion. The title of that discussion is, "Help Me Mess With My Party," which gives off the most unfortunate first impression that I desired to do something I actually didn't want to do. I will get to why I created that and how that came to be in a moment.
This is first and only warning: This story is long but the request for help and advice is real. This also contains spoilers to Legacy of Fire. Some pretty big spoilers. If you wish to play that AP, don't read this.
I don't normally post information about me, but this is relevant.
I started gaming when I was 12, and from there made the hobby a life passion. Almost all of my characters were good, law abiding citizens and great members of the party. I collected all of the books. I created my own worlds and campaigns, and I made it point to share what I created with others.
I grew taught to treat others nicely, and in real life I am one of the most friendly, happy, and nice people you will ever meet. I can't cause intentional harm to anyone, even though I have been tempted to from time to time. I even tried to play an evil character once and I just couldn't bring myself to cause harm. I am too much of a nice guy.
What I don't have a problem with is being secretive and sneaky, so long as I don't think it will hurt anyone. I am pretty horrible at it, as I have this natural tendency to share things I am excited about. However, I can do it, and enjoy doing it in games from time to time. For the most part, it never has caused an issue, but I also haven't been able to do it very often.
Outside of my gaming life, I am a a caregiver for those who can't take care of themselves. Before that I spent two years dedicated to preach the gospel of Christ. Outside of those two professions I have worked in a large variety of industries and developed and fostered many talents, most of them creative and dealing with people.
My current GM, known on these boards as Sabbacc108, is my best friend. He started gaming with me and we grew together in the hobby. He is the first person outside of my family that I would search for in case there was an emergency. He was the best man at my wedding. He is also one of the most talented men I know and I am always excited to see what he is working on.
We started our current Thursday group together with two other associates of mine and a friend of one of those associates. I have to say, that I have never been more proud of a group. Over the years we have grown stronger, closer, and tighter as a group. We are all very talented in imagination and role play, we each have a good grasp on the rules, and we always seemed to create the best stories.
Together we have completed three campaigns, each one taking over a year to do, and we are currently alternating between two different campaigns. I am running one, and it is nearly finished. Sabbacc is running Legacy of Fire and has been doing so for many, many months now. As a GM Sabbac proved himself in the first campaign we played as a group, however, only I, Sabbacc, and one other original member of the group remain, with everyone else replaced after leaving for various life reasons.
In that first campaign of Sabbacc's, he set up some amazing plot devices and story elements that lead us on this merry goose chase across a continent and into the very center of the planet itself to defeat a foe we thought was going to succeed in destroying the world. In the end, the villain succeeded in destroying a device at the center of the world, along with themselves, but not the planet itself. He then spent the entire last game of that campaign unraveling the plot within the plot, and blowing our minds. The entire campaign had been one elaborate practical joke by the long thought dead goddess of illusion. While we did save the world, in a sense, we had done it in a completely different way than what we had originally set out to do.
Needless to say we loved the game, and loved Sabbacc for the fun and amazing twists he put into that game.
Everyone in the current group, with possible exception of one player, have proven to be mature, well versed in the game, and very creative in their play styles. None of us are socially inept, and all of us have a very active life outside of the group. Indeed, I would like to think that this group is better than most and would beat the pants off any home group any day of the week if Pathfinder was a competitive game.
Cosimo My character. He is a ratfolk witch from Katapesh, and his white fur has set him apart from his birth. Veiwed as destined and set apart by the gods, he was raised up to be a leader in the community, but life hasn't been the easiest for him. As a white fur it was expected that he learn the arcane arts, but he discovered early on that he had no talent for summoning the magical energies, and he had to study extra hard to keep up with the expectations of his mentors and community. Additionally, responsibility was constantly piled upon him, and pressure to be better than his peers pitted him again everyone else. Being a ratfolk didn't help either, as they are often misunderstood and treated unfairly by outsiders. It wasn't until his patron, Sivahna the goddess of illusion, took notice and gave him his powers that things started to improve for him. Still, he had some tough life lessons, like when paladin's raided his community thinking the ratfolk were wererats.
He is now a married and successful merchant. He belongs to the Duskwalker organization, and is a well respected member of his community. That doesn't mean he really trusts people outside of the community, as if you want his full trust and respect you need to earn it. It does mean he is willing to work with other and try to trust them.
Inaya A gunslinger from Kalmarne, she escaped the slaughter that happened there and the even shaped her life drasticly. She traveled for a time, finding herself taking up the job of bounty hunter to satisfy her lust for gold. It was during her travels as a bounty hunter that she came across the musket and learned to use it properly. Tackling jobs that were dangerous didn't concern her, and she never ran from a fight. When she arrived back at Katapesh she went looking for someone who could supply her with black powder for her musket. That person ended up being Cosimo, and it was through him that she learned that there was going to be an attempt to restore her hometown. Full of questions as to what happened all those years ago, she decided to join.
Eyvinder A white fur, runt of a gnoll, he was found in the desert as a babe and raised by a dwarf follower of Sarenrae. Battling his natural instincts, he grew up dedicated to the Dawnflower. Not that out of place in Katapesh, his life was pretty normal for a paladin in training. Still, he learned to hate gnolls, though the reasons are unclear. When a chance to fight them off of a small town came up, he jumped on the opportunity and set out with the caravan.
AliA human magus from Katapesh. Honestly, I have little to go on by way of backstory. The character is young and inexperienced, in fact I joked that he was the Luke Skywalker of the group. He has a mother. He hates the concept of slavery because he brother was sold off. He may or may not have genie or alien blood in his family tree somewhere.
Tashir An elf druid. He is more like a teenager who was raised by wolves. He is pretty chaotic and unpredictable. The party found him in a temple of Nethys not far from Kalmarane and he has been following the group around ever since. He has never admitted to being a druid, and instead says that he is an illusionist, summoner, or ranger.
I wont go into detail in terms of encounters, monsters, locations, or NPCs unless it is relevant to the topic.
The game started out with the party unsure of each other. They were after all pretty misfit and unusual. I made it clear from the beginning that my character didn't trust anyone and that they would need to work to earn that. He especially didn't trust a gnoll paladin, but the player of Eyvinder seemed fine with taking up the challenge of earning trust and friendship.
I played Cosimo at first as if he wasn't even sure why he was being an adventurer. He was a merchant, and was only there to represent the Duskwalkers, but Inaya was able to convince him to come along and soon he realized that being on the front lines meant he was going to be able to ensure that his superior's wishes were fullfilled. At this time I hadn't come up with him being a follower of Sivahna, as that came later, otherwise I would have used her as an excuse to adventure.
One NPC caught everyone's attention right away, a filthy ranger named Dashski, and we wanted to kill him from the start. We had no evidence he was doing anything wrong though, so we let him go about his business.
When we came to the Monastery of Saint Vardishall things started to develop with my character and the group. Cosimo ended up making all of the knowledge checks about the place and we learned a great deal about Saint Vardishall, the Templars of the Five Winds, and the monastery. This was great because I had already established that Cosimo grew up loving stories about local folk heroes and adventurers. This just meant that Cosimo liked the stories about these guys and knew who they were. I sensed at that time that it was setting up the cast and plot of the whole AP, and so far I have been right.
If you want to know more about Vardishall, go to Pathfinder Wiki and look him up. He has an entry there.
We cleared the monastery but it was the basement where everything started to change in a big way. It was there that the party was attacked by ooze, and Cosimo was the only one hit by it. At that time all it did was cause damage, but soon after he had the feeling that he needed to go dig up something in the garden of the monastery. There he found a quarterstaff and he hasn't really let go of it since.
While I am not 100% clear if the quarterstaff is infused with Vardishall's spirit or not, or if Cosimo was partially possessed at that time, that incident has been the base for every secret the GM has passed onto me.
We then went onto the town of Kalmarane, using the monastery as a base of operations. We did good for a time, and worked well together. One NPC, a harpy we came across, was one I made a point to try and befriend. I knew she was evil, and the paladin was ready to attack her but we were able to convince him not to. She ended up providing us with keys and information. Cosimo promised her continued beneficial friendship if she kept proving to be a helpful ally. He later bought her a special man slave as thanks for her help and maintained a working and professional relationship with her.
The real problems inside the party started when I came up with an idea I just had to try. Because Cosimo had the keys and the party was squabbling about how to handle a large building called the Battle Market, I had Cosimo take initiative and separate from the party. It was pretty clear the party had done a good job at not alerting the main boss of the area and his gnoll minions that we were there. We knew he used the Battle Market as a base of operations, and we knew there were prisoners that needed to be freed from somewhere inside.
I had Cosimo separate from the party and start talking to people inside. He showed them an unholy symbol of Rovagug, correctly guessing that they worshiped the Rough Beast, and found that he could go anywhere he wanted. That didn't go over too well with the party. They didn't want to split the party, and for good reasons, but I wanted to see how far I could go and I wanted to try and save the prisoners without anyone being alerted to our presence. Sabbacc told me later that I did fail some bluff checks and that people were suspecting Cosimo wasn't who he said he was, but I and my character were none the wiser.
Unfortunately, there was a bit of an argument and I grew to frustrated to tell anyone what I was up to. They were not given the detials of my plan, and just told to stay where they were and that I was going to be right back. They went off and killed a few gnolls quietly and then kicked in the door of the Battle Market and with guns blazing told everyone who we were, what we could do, and that we were there to kick ass. I was still trying to free prisoners, and when the party realized a fight right there was going to end badly for the people I was leading out of the holding cells we ended up running away.
I was pretty pissed at everyone, but had to admit that I didn't handle the situation very well. There was a bit an argument where I threw around some bad remarks in-character and it took Sabbacc having Sivahna slap Cosimo around to shut him and me up. No one knew of course what was going on. The change was pretty instantaneous and sudden. One moment, Cosimo is yelling at them and the next he is apologizing and suggesting everyone set aside the past and move on.
Still, one point of mine was valid. Because the party had blatantly kicked in the front door and showed off to fifty gnolls and their leader who we were, we now had a huge disadvantage and had lost the opportunity to surprise the bad guys. They were now waiting for us and well prepared to handle us.
It was also at this time that we realized that the main bad guy was one of the Templar's of the Five winds and an old friend of Vardishall. It was clear that something had corrupted him and through what Sabbacc had established I had Cosimo concerned about killing him. He even asked that the group try not to kill him but find some way save and redeem him. This was odd because Cosimo was established to be vindictive and cruel to his enemies. He didn't kill them, they made their lives hell. To say that he wanted to try and save someone who was clearly doing horrible things meant something was amiss.
So, with some difficultly we cleared the Battle Market. Unfortunately the main boss, the ex-member of the Templars, was killed. Cosimo showed grief over it and insisted that someone help him bury him properly.
Once that was over with, Dashki the smelly ranger, crossed the party and ended up challenging us to a duel. He lost but was stablized. The party wanted to turn him over to the leader of the caravan, Alma, and let her decide his fate. Cosimo just went ahead and killed him covertly to save everyone the trouble. He knew that is there was some chance that he was going to survive, he would only become a major thorn in everyone's side.
And that was the end of part one. There was a year in-game between parts. During that time Cosimo established a new ratfolk community under the Monastery of Saint Vardishall and restored, rebuilt, and maintained the monastery while also fulfilling his duties as a Duskwalker. It was pointed out that the community was comprised of followers of the Dawnflower, as Vardishall was a saint associated with that goddess.
Cosimo also had more kids during that time, but that wasn't really important. He did continue friendships with two evil creatures, a harpy and a goblin, but never did anything with them besides keep them employed and happy.
The rest of the party established businesses and strongholds in Kalmarane. Eyvinder restored the church of Sarenrae and began protecting the town. Inaya founded a tavern and used it as a front to keep and eye on the town. Ali started a fighting school and move his mother into the town. Tashir became the sweeper of the church halls and took lots of naps.
Between part one and two I made it a point to use my character traits to benefit the party. We gain 10% more gold from selling loot and Cosimo crafted several wondrous items 5% cheaper than normal. This mean better and personalized gear for everyone. It was also established that the party were good friends and visited each other often.
The second part started out with the group being gathered at the tavern to talk to someone who claimed they had a dire warning. Things went south for the visitor quickly and we suspected that he wasn't who he said he was. He ended up throwing off his disguise and revealing that he was yet another ex-member of the Templars of the Five Winds. He told us that the House of the Beast in the nearby Pale Mountains was full of a gnoll army readying to attack the town.
Cosimo didn't care about the gnolls though, he wanted to know about why a Templar was telling us to go and attack the stronghold. I didn't say that to my party, but possibly hinted at it.
To be honest, there wasn't much in the House of the Beast for the majority of Part 2 that gave me any clues. During that time though I showed off some new spells that we used to scout around. The party learned that Cosimo could use detect thoughts, disguise self/[i], and my new favorite [i]sow thought. Deception became part of clearing the stronghold, and tricking enemies into ambushes was something we did a couple of times. Cosimo also lied to the paladin on several occations just to prevent him from destroying valuable items that were connected to Rovagug or keeping him form killing NPCs before we could question them.
It was after the big, and I mean big, boss fight that things experienced a turning point. The templar who showed up in the beginning just appeared next to Cosimo, healed him, called Vardishall, and told him he needed the party to go get something for him. I rolled with it and acted like the guy was an old friend, responding as it it was perfectly normal to be called Vardishall.
Naturally, the party was a bit freaked out. Questions were asked but I didn't give answers. Instead I told them they didn't need to be concerned about it at that time.
We went about clearing the place before moving onto a location we knew was going to be plot heavy. During that time I had to miss a game and they played without me. It was during that time that the party discussed Cosimo candidly, but I will have to allow Sabbacc to give full details about that later. I was informed by him later that the party didn't trust Cosimo and were a bit unsure about what was going on. Sabbacc and I didn't feel that there were any red flag though, and that it was only going to make what Sabbacc had planned all the more awesome. I told him I wanted to find ways to mess with the party, mostly through harmless actions that would build upon my character but not bring harm to anyone. Actions like using an alter self spell to look like Vardishall next time a Templar showed up or talking to illusions to give updates on assignments Sivahna gave Cosimo. At the same time Sabbacc confided in me that there were going to be secret agendas for each party member, and so the goal of finding creative, covert, and fun ways to keep track of them was made. It was then that I created the discussion Help Me Mess With My Party for the purpose of gleaning ideas from the boards. Take note that I never actually "messed" with my party or had a chance to even use any of the ideas presented in that discussion. The desire to mess with someone's head does not make you a jerk. Acting on that desire with the intention of harming them for fun is. I never wanted to harm my party.
Onto the game again. To draw attention to the fact that I wasn't at the game I had Cosimo separate from the party and wander around the cleared halls of the stronghold. The group was bit weirded out by that but accepted it. They did seem to treat Cosimo as if he as going to lead them into an ambush, but I kept insisting that Cosimo was genuine in his desire to check out certain parts of the stronghold.
We then came across a plot element that alerted us to the main antagonist to the Templars and their leader. Finally having a name was nice, and I may have hinted that Cosimo knew a bit more at that time.
We then finished clearing the stronghold and came across a scroll with a strange rune on it. Cosimo, by way of GM fiat, picked it up absentmindedly and put it with his possession. The party asked what it was and I pointed out that it was a McGuffin and that Cosimo would study it further back in Kalmarane. GM notes were passed to me at that time to let me know that I had a sense of relief that I had finally found this object, which apparently a part of me was looking for. Further notes pointed out that I was filled with dread with idea of giving up the scroll and that my goddess wanted me to destroy it.
Thursday started like normal, with everyone arriving, shooting the breeze, and me trying to hint subtly that we should get started. I had come to the game without properly eaten though, and I felt dehydrated. The fact that there was nothing but pixy sticks to snack on didn't help either. As the night wore on, I began to crash more and more and my ability to role play suffered greatly for it. Unfortunately, I really needed to be on top of my game due to what happened over the course of the night.
The player who played Inaya had a beer, but pointed out that she could really feel it due to the fact that she hadn't eaten dinner. Maybe that had a little to do with what happened but I doubt it.
Eyvinder's player was really chill during the game but I know he had a couple of shots and a beers. Once again, I am not sure if he was drunk or if alcohol had anything to do with his decisions.
Ali's player and the guy who plays Tashir really didn't contribute much more then allowing the events to unfold.
The game started and the scroll with the odd rune was brought up. I don't remember actually saying I took it out to show the party, but somehow Ali was able to detect magic on it and study it enough for a Linguistic check. I didn't mind because I wanted to know more too, but I also wanted to control the information. The party decided it was a powerful artifact and that we needed to study it later.
We then started to leave the stronghold, and headed off towards some freed slaves we had left in a secure room. On the way, the Templar who tricked us into attacking the stronghold just so he could get the item showed up again and talked exclusively to Cosimo. Two party members made perception checks to listen in and the conversation when something like this:
Templar- "Congradulations on finding what we worked so hard to find."
Cosimo- "Do we need to have a private conversation about this?"
Templar- "No, but you do know where to find me."
Cosimo- "Indeed I do."
The Templar then used passwall or some other spell to jump through a wall. The paladin was able to detect evil in time to catch a glimpse of evil.
The party asked what was going on and I informed them that I didn't want to talk about it at that time. They then asked for the scroll.
Now, I need to note that I am not in anyway good at debate or arguments. If you want to win an argument with me, just start one. But when I am normally caught between a rock and a hard place, I don't handle it well. Inaya's player comes from a very cultured and scholarly background and is possibly one of the best people I know at debate. Factor in the fact that I am already not in the best mental state to think on the fly and you have a recipe for disaster.
The argument went along the lines of them insisting Cosimo give up the scroll and me telling them I can't and won't. If I was in a better state I probably would have stepped way out of character and pleaded with them to drop the matter and just trust me that they just need to let Cosimo hang onto the scroll. The Templar didn't take it from Cosimo because he thought he was Vardishall, respected him, and knew that there was someone protecting him (Sivahna apparently, as was brought up later.) In the hands of another character he could easily take it.
Did I explain that? No, I was constantly pausing to try and gather my thoughts, find the words I was wanted to say, and come up with a good reason that didn't ruin what Sabbacc was building. All the while I was being hit with point after point and not given much room to think or speak. Each point I brought up was quickly turned against me and at the end of it all I started to feel backed up against a wall. Instead of having some sense to ask for a break so I could talk to Carl, or to ask the party to back off out-of-character, I issued an ultimatum. They could pry it form Cosimo's cold, dead hands.
The paladin said, "Fine, I grapple him." I said, "Roll initiative." He tried to argue surprise round and I countered that Cosimo could see him clearly and was ready to defend himself. Cosimo beat out everyone with a natural 18 and a +8 to initiative. I started out with the slumber hex on the paladin, who I pointed out I knew was going to make the save and was only in defense. I also pointed out that I could have used other spells that were much more damaging. Then, because Cosimo rides a riding dog, I declared that he rode off.
The paladin's player objected, claiming that Cosimo was off of the dog. I told him that Cosimo was always riding the dog as was established by then throughout the entire campaign. He kept trying to argue it but I had none of it and told him, "He is my character, not yours. Stop playing him for me. He is on the dog." He backed down but seemed a bit angry at it. I then handed my character over to Sabbacc and asked that he play it out for me. I was in need of a break and I was sorely tempted to pack up and excuse myself. I was already feeling a bit like I needed to take a break and that everyone needed a break from me.
I stayed however. I honestly said very little after that, and mostly passed notes to Sabbacc, worked on Hero Lab, and occasionally tried to make a joke or two to lighten the mood.
What ended up happening was a bit more shocking. I later apologized for the ultimatum and grief that it caused, but what followed after the chase was all on the rest of the party.
I missed parts of it due to frequent bathroom breaks and constant pacing between my seat and the kitchen. I sort of overheard Eyvinder suggest just killing the dog, but I may have misheard that. Sabbacc could fill in the details there, but he said earlier that even if it was a joke it wasn't appropriate, funny, or kind in the least bit.
When I sat down there was some comment made about how I missed something and I responded with, "If you do kill Cosimo's dog, I am not sure we could continue this and Cosimo might have to become a minor villain." Someone then asked, "Isn't he one already?" I don't remember my response to that but I imagine it didn't help. I was shutting down in more ways than one and just didn't want to deal with it.
Sabbacc, for good reasons, wanted to keep the party together and due to how he had events happen Eyvinder ended up grappling the riding dog and Inaya ended up shooting (non-lethally, which I know isn't legal but I wasn't going to argue against it,) Cosimo several times. In the end, Cosimo was knocked out and tied up. The party grabbed the slaves, and they stripped Cosimo of all his gear. He had hidden the scroll in a Pathfinder pouch they didn't know he had, so they didn't find the scroll.
They argued for some time over what to do. One of the things that came up was me asking for them to find a solution that allow me to keep playing my character. I was told then, at that time, by two of the players that they felt I needed to play someone else. The paladin told me twice, "I can't think of a reason to adventure with him." Because I just wanted to keep some peace I kept my mouth shut. The party came to the conclusion that once they found out where the scroll was they were going to banish Cosimo from the town. They didn't have the power to do that, which Sabbacc pointed out several times, but they ignored that. I do remember making a comment about interrogating, torturing, and waterboarding Cosimo, and being reassured that it wouldn't come to that.
In the end they decided the best course of action was to keep him unconscious and tied up. They feared he was being controlled by some evil force, and that he had given the scroll to a devil. It was a multi-day journey back to Kalmarane. That meant that they had to keep beating on Cosimo to keep him unconscious and that he wasn't being given food or water. When they arrived in Kalmarne they took Cosimo to a small room in the temple and tied him to a chair.
When they woke him up I insisted that Cosimo would say nothing and that they had no right or power to do what they were doing. In an attempt to lighten the mood (and this did get laughs from the group,) I brought up Liam Neeson Stares At You on my laptop. It was actually appropriate too.
Inaya was the worst in that situation. She told Cosimo that she was going to take him to Katapesh and find someone to give her gold for him, sell off all his gear, his familiar, and his dog if Cosimo didn't give them the scroll. I don't respond to threats well, but was able to keep my head through this one. When I said that Cosimo simply wanted to see his wife and family again, and that if they let him do that first, he would be more open to handing over the scroll, they refused him that request. They claimed that all he was going to do was pass on information that was going to lead to further hiding the scroll, and possibly a ratfolk conspiracy of some kind. I went silent again and made it clear I was done with this and wasn't going to say any more.
Now, why wasn't I saying anything more? First of all, Sabbacc trusted me with information I was sure he didn't want me to just shout out in an unfair interrogation. I also didn't have enough information to cast what was going on in the proper light. Second, I was crashing horribly. The sugar was getting to me and I was could barely think one or two sentences ahead. Lastly, I was sick and tired of being the witch in a witch burning. I knew that things were not going to go well, suspected that I was going to have to make a different character, and in a way was just ready to sit back and watch everyone else burn down the game because of paranoia and fear.
That is when Inaya asked Eyvinder and Ali to step out of the room so she could have a private conversation. We all knew what that meant. I don't know if I snapped, had a flash of brilliance, or was just being a jerk but what I said next probably saved Inaya from doing something I know the player would have ended up regretting. I provoked the paladin by asking when he planned on losing his abilities over a scroll that was long gone. Was it when he would leave the room knowing full well what Inaya was going to do or when he buried Cosimo's body? Eyvinder then struck Cosimo, knocking him out again.
The GM stepped in at that time and had a NPC intervene. He made it clear that this was in no way okay for anyone to do and that the characters had no right or power to be doing it. They argued their points, and in a way Inaya did have a good in character reason. The town and her family had been killed because of major magic crap that was covered up and kept secret from her. She didn't that to happen again. Still, they were told to take Cosimo to Alma, the city leader.
Once there, I calmly had Cosimo request, politely and soberly, that he be given diplomatic considerations, due to his status within the Duskwalkers and the ratfolk community, and that he be returned to his people. I made it clear that he was willing to offer a full apology and explination as well as hand over the scroll if the party only let him go back to his family first. This caused a little bit of a back lash from Inaya. "Your people? You make it sound like you are not part of this community." I pointed out she didn't want him to be part of it anyway, but that yes, amoung ratfolk Cosimo was a leader and that gave him a bit of political power in this situation. She tried to argue that the only law was not to interfere with trade. Sabbacc almost yelled that that was exactly what they were doing. While, yes, ratfolk are given some political considerations, the very fact that they were mistreating a Duskwalker was tantamount to interfering with trade and could become punishable. I asked that charges not be brought up and that they just let Cosimo go.
Alma had a private conversation with Cosimo, and told the party to meet the next day. She let Cosimo go home and then kept the party there to talk privately. I was in the bathroom for much of the conversation and didn't care to listen in, but I caught enough to know that they were still arguing their points while Sabbacc was reproving them for taking it as far as they did. He also firmly told them in and out of character that I had really good reasons to keep the scroll from the party and that Cosimo was actually a big part of the plot by now. If they wanted to keep playing, they had to do so with me playing Cosimo.
The next day, Cosimo, his wife, and his personal assistant arrived at Alma's, as did the rest of the party. Alma returned Cosimo's gear, the scroll, and admonished him to keep it. She then told the group that they were to travel to Katapesh, learn more about this item, and work together. Cosimo was to be the keeper of the item, and that the secrets he was keeping from them were his to tell. That not telling them was for their benefit and protection. I wasn't able to really read how people responded to that. I still sensed a bit of tention, but I wasn't sure due to the fact that I was crashing horribly.
Sabbacc and I talked about it afterwards. He felt like he had lost control of the game and that everyone but me and him were out of line. I admitted to being the straw the broke the camel's back, and told him that he couldn't have done a better job. Sometimes we have bad games. The fortunate part was that he had established a foundation to build upon. The only direction we could go was up. We now had a major shift in goals, a clarification of what we needed to do, and a more established reason for Cosimo to continue keeping secrets. Cosimo will have to change, I will have to adjust how he interacts with the party and I will have to change how I talk and joke about him.
We have yet to talk to the group and ask how they feel now that some time has passed. Hopefully clearer heads and happier moods will prove to make reasonable people. As the only two original members of the group, Sabbacc and I want to keep the group going. We like the people we are gaming with, and we would like to keep playing with them. We can only hope that they feel the same, but as yet we are unsure.
This was a response in the other discussion.
Well, I guess it's time for me to step in.
Hi, my name is Carl, and I'm CalebTGordan's GM.
I should come right out and say that I'm at least partially to blame for the situation that occurred during our last gaming session; though some of the people on this forum seem to find it hard to believe, CalebTGordan has been running everything he has planned for his character by me ahead of time---and I have been, in turn, giving him suggestions as to things which he should try, and as to which things he has planned will and will not work.
CalebTGordan is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced player I know, and it goes without saying that I trust him completely both in and out of game. Because of that, I have been using him to help me in directing the plot of the campaign---entrusting him with information and responsibilities beyond what the other players are expected to handle. Again, I did this because I trust him---trust him to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate; trust him to sacrifice what he might want for the good of the game. I know that he would never willingly do anything to jeopardize a friendship.
Of course, anyone can make mistakes.
That being said, the very minor mistake that CalebTGordan (as Cosimo) made in NO WAY justified the actions of the other players. In spite of what some of you may believe, He was in no way being a jerk; perhaps his character had some attitude, but it was completely in character for him to behave as such, and the other party members presented little reason for him to do otherwise. I was genuinely shocked at the lengths to which the other players stooped---particularly the Paladin. Within the space of a few minutes, there was a sharp turnaround as two of the players completely ganged up on another, and once they had turned down that path, nothing that was said or done gave any indication of swaying them from the unspoken consensus they had clearly reached.
Probably the most disturbing part of the whole scenario was that for a portion of the session, CalebTGordan actually handed control of his character over to me; since it was made fairly clear that this was done for plot reasons, the fact that the other players not only continued but dramatically escalated their behavior indicated that they not only didn't trust CalebTGordan---they also didn't trust ME as a GM.
If a player starts causing a problem, it's the job of the GM to try and fix it as soon as possible. I assume that any player worth his salt knows and expects this. As has been pointed out, we've been playing with mostly the same group for a long time now, and given my history with these players (particularly my penchant for painstakingly setting up mind-bending plot reveals), I would expect them to have a certain faith that I'm not jerking them around for no reason (and that I won't let legitimate character-driven decisions cause them to "lose").
So, the fact that neither player caught the cue to back off when I stepped in the first time bothered me a bit---but I let it slide, since they were just roleplaying their characters.
Except that they really weren't. Not both of them, at least.
If anybody had justification for what was done, it was the Gunslinger. I'll admit that certain aspects of her character background made it more likely to act the was she did. I certainly didn't anticipate it, but in hindsight I probably should've.
However, the Paladin of the party stepped far outside the bounds of appropriate behavior---I can honestly say that a Lawful Good character (and a paladin, especially) had no right or reason to behave the way he did. The worst part about it was that the player seemed to see nothing wrong with his actions, even when the specifics were pointed out to him---there were even a number of off-color and even sadistic comments made (passed off afterward as being out-of-character or "jokes") which did absolutely nothing to alleviate my concerns over the growing tension in the room.
I believe it has been said before, but I'll say it again: the characters had no real evidence to hold against Cosimo; they had suspicions, yes, but ones based mostly on drastic (and possibly willful) misinterpretation of in-game events. No one tried very hard to find out any real information; lack of evidence against Cosimo was interpreted as evidence in itself, a rather slippery slope. Players were also making a great many decisions based on things they personally could observe---primarily the passing of notes and out-of room conversations. However, instead of trying to ask me about things I was clearly influencing, they attacked another player---another player who, honestly, had only a slightly better understanding of what was going on than anyone else did, but who was willing to go out on a limb because of trust.
I could go on, but I don't think it will be very productive; suffice it to say, the actions (or inaction) of every player and character in our last session are going to have consequences. That includes myself. I don't believe there was any way anyone could have foreseen what happened; some forum members here may feel otherwise, but YOU WEREN'T THERE. This was an important learning experience for me, and reminded me how much I still have to learn. In the end, I don't think that any lasting harm was done; there won't be any friendships threatened here---or if there are, it won't be on CalebTGordan's head. The one thing I can say for certain is that I probably put too much weight on one player's head---I did it because it was easy for me, and because I didn't anticipate it causing any problems. Apparently, I was wrong, and everybody suffered for it. Still, there are a lot of possible positive building blocks which can be taken from this, and a lot of character development which will now be pushed to the forefront. If nothing else, this is good to have been gotten out of the way, because I can't imagine having a worse session, so there's nowhere to go but up.
Thank you.
There really isn't a question at this point. We do want to keep doing the behind the scenes work, the secret agendas, and wtf moments, but it is also clear that we need to find a proper balance. We clearly missed some red flags and warning signs, and the way I may have handled things could have caused the blow up to happen.
I will post a bit later what the other players feel and think. We have to talk to them first and that might mean Thurday, but we remain optimistic that we can salvage this and continue with the plan. Granted the plan has changed a bit, but that is a post for another time.
Can you write a summary? This is 6k words.
Edit: I skimmed it briefly and I have a comment.
I suck at arguments IRL. My solution to arguments in-game when I DM is simply to not evaluate them based on my own skill for arguing. I call for a diplomacy check.
Another thing I sometimes do is explain that the character comes up with a great counterargument. I've had to use this once in a game scenario when a player asked a really clever (too clever, his character was int 7) question to a priest. The question wasn't just clever, it spotted a contradiction in the religion itself based on some fluff another player had improvised on the spot (and I had approved of) and the priest had said.
I simply resolved the argument by railroading it:
"The prist provides you a detailed and, as far as you can see, flawless counterargument to your point."
Summary:
He hid something from his party. His party assumed he was being evil and attacked him and brutalized his character and tried to run him out of the party.
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It is too bad this happened before my suggestion on your other thread, which might have mitigated the problem by having the paladin on your side. Or it could have made it worse if the gnoll felt duped.
In any case, keeping secrets from a paladin and a player who has a backstory horror story about secrets kept from him is not a good idea for a healthy party and game. Add to that the fact that one of the players (I may be getting them confused now) had his family member sold into slavery and Cosimo is okay with dealing in slaves, and now you have a potential powder keg.
This is like having a chaotic neutral priest of Urgathoa and a priest of pharasma in the same party. One wants to make as much undead as possible and embraces it, and the other feels it is blasphemy and needs to be destroyed. Yes you can pull it off, but it sure aint easy, and your players had better be professional actors so they can draw clear distinctions between RL and in game RP.
If I was one of the other players playing their characters, I would not be adventuring with him anymore probably after what has transpired. Even if it wasn't his direct fault, all th strife and upset caused by his presence (I am speaking about in game not at the RL table) is dangerous when you are depending on each other in dungeons or the wild. Cosimo would have to do something very big and binding in order to make me ever trust him again.
tl;dr - Your party makeup is somewhat toxic from my outside viewpoint, so you may need to do some tinkering to fix that.
Yeah having read more of the situation it deffinatly got out of control. Sadly the solution might appear punitive to other players seeing as they are now forbidden to take action against you by the NPC which would likely be interpreted as the directly from the GM's mouth.
If I was a player in this position I would think about either a new character or getting my character out of that position because it is possible to be a source of tension. This could be done by coming clean to some extent and get out of the keepng secrets business. Especially given that it has proved dangerous for you so far. Perhaps your wife could nag to you be more trusting of people you are trusting with your life anyway.
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I found it very revealing to write this, and it really helped to do so.
I have to admit that Inaya, or at least the player, never really brings up her character backstory. It was sort of sudden and out of the blue for me this last game. I might have worked with her more closely, and I think Sabbacc feels the same, if it had been a bit more forefront and obvious the player was going to pull that on us.
Also, Ali, the character who doesn't like slavery is not played very seriously. But that doesn't mean I should not have been taking that seriously.
That said, you are right, the party make up is pretty toxic. I blame everyone, including me, that this happened. The gunslinger has no problem doing things the paladin has objected to. She has made it clear that she doesn't trust anyone, paladin included, and that she would loot bodies of party members if it came to that. The player playing the paladin isn't even close to Law Good in my mind and doesn't have the same sense of morality I think a paladin should have. He is also playing a gnoll, and has him given into gnoll like instincts.
I don't think me playing another character is the solution. If I did that, I would play a boring, in the background type character right now. There would be peace, but I don't see myself enjoying another character at the moment. I think the solution is to talk to Mr. Paladin and Miss. Gunslinger first and move on from there. I am taking a few days to wait to do that so I don't start out the conversation with "WTF WERE YOU THINKING YOU &$#@%!"
I am developing a plan to turn them onto the idea of Cosimo. I will post it here once I am able.
some have suggested that you were posessed or under evil influence. Convicing them that it has lifted would go a long way to help.
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Actually, I am really liking the idea that redcelt suggested in the other discussion. Have him use Alter Self to appear as an avatar of Sarenrae. He is already under light influence by Vardishall, and NPCs keep talking to as if he is. Why not gather the party and say, "Well, I can't keep this ruse up anymore. Surprise!" and then turn into him.
I just had that idea and will be thinking about it. On one hand, I am continuing to deceive and keep secrets from the party. On the other hand, this time they think they are in the know. I will have to change much about how I play and talk about my character around the group, and work on my poker face, but I think it can be pulled off.
*Edit* BTW, in case it wasn't clear, Vardishall is a saint and possible avatar of Sarenrae, Lawful Good, and an ex-member of the Templar's of the Five Winds. He is pretty central to the plot, and now very much part of Cosimo.
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Actually, I am really liking the idea that redcelt suggested in the other discussion. Have him use Alter Self to appear as an avatar of Sarenrae. He is already under light influence by Vardishall, and NPCs keep talking to as if he is. Why not gather the party and say, "Well, I can't keep this ruse up anymore. Surprise!" and then turn into him.
I just had that idea and will be thinking about it. On one hand, I am continuing to deceive and keep secrets from the party. On the other hand, this time they think they are in the know. I will have to change much about how I play and talk about my character around the group, and work on my poker face, but I think it can be pulled off.
*Edit* BTW, in case it wasn't clear, Vardishall is a saint and possible avatar of Sarenrae, Lawful Good, and an ex-member of the Templar's of the Five Winds. He is pretty central to the plot, and now very much part of Cosimo.
One part of this is you know your group better than anyone here. So if everyone gets along and knows what the players themselves are like, that helps immensely.
That being said, probably this group would have been well served having a metagame discussion at the beginning to talk about how they were going to interact together. In these talks for instance, the gunslinger could tell Cosimo ways he could pull off his secret keeping that would work on her, and the paladin could say what things would make him go postal on a party member. This way, everyone knows as players up front the limitations they have before they possibly provoke a PVP type situation. It is rather cumbersome to have to do this, but it does prevent breakdowns like what happened. Since you all might not know each other's backstory secrets, it sort of falls on the GM to decide if this is necessary or not. And once again, hindsight is 20/20 and its hard to know sometimes in advance.
To be honest, it really wasn't that bad. I have know games that were higher level where people start killing retainers and NPC wives and husbands, burning villages, and in the end players either leave or get kicked from the group because of bad table strife. By contrast, there was a nasty little bit of kidnapping and roughing up a player, and the GM and he having to struggle to do a bit of damage control about the secret info that should not get out to the players yet.
Just an FYI, my advice would have been to not metagame this piece, ie-it seemed Cosimo didnt give up the scroll because his player knew the GM wanted it secret. If the GM put it in the party, he has to allow that this could happen and roll with the consequences. I think part of the reason this went as far as it did was due to this inconsistency in Cosimo's actions. It really limited some of the things he could do to ease tensions because he had to protect this info at all costs.
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What a mess. It has taken long enough to read the first post, so I will keep this short:
Talk with you group and that includes everyone, about the type of game you want to play. Having secrets in a group can be fun, but oviously it didn't work that way for your group.
I know, that in most situations players are quite willing to ignore certain things when it comes to the group makeup, but at this point at least two characters don't trust your character. That is bad.
If you continue to keep secrets from the party, the paladin and the gunslinger might decide to kill your character with litte regret. The don't even have to it themselves, there are plenty of options to gete you killed it notmal combat.
Oh and using magic to trick the party again is a damn bad idea.
After reading everything, I cannot give a personal standpoint or decision as to what should've happened or been done about as not only is the deed already done, but also it is not my place, nor is it something I can physically do since it is something I am not a part of.
However, one thing I can say from experience, in almost anything I do, is that you need to maintain your body. I do not say this in offense or insult of any sort, but that as you have mentioned multiple times, that your eating habit has had a severely (almost debilitating) negative influence as to how you handled the situation. Again, while I will not say that it is wrong or anything, I will say that it has had an impact, and is something that could have very well helped the situation some; that everybody either came to the session well-prepared with either food or sated stomachs (and thirsts quenched), and their mood at an equilibrium. It's something we always do at our sessions, and if it doesn't happen, then I too would have the same problem that you had (a debilitating or outrageous change in how I act), and I do have this problem also, since I know that when I get hungry or thirsty, I get angry, and is something that I combat pretty much every day of my life, since regardless of what I do it has this impact.
And while this doesn't apply to just you (as you too have made remarks about the other players with feeling sickly and/or out of the mood due to their intake of food and drink), your other players (and even GM) should also take heed to this advice. I would honestly suggest that you guys take a break and order some pizza in or something at some point during the session, as well as have some sodas (and/or water bottles) in a fridge that is swiftly accessible for your group to drink. (It's ironic, but it works, and I should know from experience.)
@ Redcelt: I don't think it was because his GM told him not to do it. Another reasonable explanation that could conceive the same effect was that if Cosimo told them what the Scroll did or handed it over that it would put the artifact in jeopardy (i.e. put it in the wrong hands). Honestly, Cosimo had reason to do what he did because he had information (explained with folded notes from the GM) earned with his character, and knew that letting the Lawful Stupid Paladin or the Killjoy Gunslinger or whatever other clowns he interacts with would be absolutely consequential to his cause, as well as his motives, or even subjects that extend far beyond what is his.
Again, if I knew what an object's full capabilities are and how they would impact all subjects (in this case, it appears obviously negatively), then I wouldn't want those clowns to have it either. Chances are, it's a very powerful cursed scroll, and letting the Lawful Stupid Paladin have it, or the Unintelligent Killjoy Gunslinger have it, or the Philosophical D-Bag of a Sorcerer (or whatever class it is) have it, is something that would not only go against his motives, but also the likes of others, something which he cannot say as that too is part of his character, and could very well be a trigger sequence for the Cursed Scroll to take effect (the mere mention of its power).
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Actually, it would be using magic to fill the player in on most of the secrets, and changing their perception of what is happening with my character. While it isn't the total truth, and yes still deceiving the party, it is closer to the truth and follows the truth of what has been happening. In a sense, Cosimo is Vardishall, just not to the extent my idea suggests.
This still just an idea though, and not any serious plan.
We plan on talking to the whole group on Thursday. We just put out a post on our private group page informing them and asking them to share their thoughts and feelings. Once we have a clearer picture we can move forward with planning.
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Caleb, I can't believe after all of this that your best solution here is to continue to deceive your party! That is what got you into this mess to begin with. How can you not see that?
Take note that I never actually "messed" with my party...
I wish you would stop saying that because it is clearly not true. I think you must be in denial or diluting yourself about intentions being greater than action or some such nonsense. You need to think about what you have done that lead your party to have this level of mistrust and then think about if you could blame them for having such reactions.
DrDeth pointed this out in the other thread and he had excellent points. I will steal some of them from him:
"He likes to go off on his own. While I know this is dangerous, it is often just to scout out gain information. The first few times this was done the party loudly protested, but now they wait patiently.
- He clearly is hiding something. He is actually hiding lots of somethings, and every so often "accidentally" allows one of the party members to find one out.
- People keep calling him different names. NPCs that none of the party members have ever seen before keep talking to him as if they were old friends, and at least one of them tricked the group into assaulting the House of the Beast. There is an in game reason for this, but if you haven't played LoF, I won't ruin anything for you by explaining it.
- He never sleeps. He has a ring of sustenance and uses the extra time to craft, scribe scrolls, or write letters home. Even never tells anyone what he is actually doing and he has made it a point to do so privately.
- He befriends clearly evil people and insists the party give them respect.
- He has made it clear he is okay with slavery.
- He has made it clear he is okay with selling the eggs of intelligent monsters.
- He doesn't kill his targeted foes, he screws them over so badly that death would be merciful.
- He claims to worship one god but has done things that suggest he worships another.
- He has made it clear that if things go sideways he is running and leaving the party to die."And to now add to that list from things you put in this thread:
He befriended an evil harpy and currently employs her and has even bought her a slave.
- I doubt that your party knows your character's true feelings about them. To put it in your own words, "While he views his party as friends, they are not part of his ratfolk community and he would have no problem leaving them to die if things become overwhelming."
- When the party found out that you had been concealing an important and powerful magic item and that they wanted it your character responded with a threatening ultimatum "You can have it when you pry it from my cold dead hands."
- When that lead to a conflict in which Cosimo won the initiative he threw the first punch at his party by casting a spell on them. This was unprovoked because no one had yet attacked him and none had even made any threats against him. The player did, but not the character. Cosimo threw the first punch.
- He then ran. The innocent have no reason to run.
Honestly, if you ask me, your party's actions were justifiable. I do not see any reason they would have to trust your character in the first place. If the reasons above aren't enough, clearly they have their own.
The problems that were caused here started from the beginning of your campaign. Your DM deciding to allow a deceitful character like yours in a party that includes a paladin is simply asking for inter party conflict. Your actions in character haven't really quelled this problem any either. In fact, they have exacerbated it.
"If you do kill Cosimo's dog, I am not sure we could continue this and Cosimo might have to become a minor villain." Someone then asked, "Isn't he one already?" I don't remember my response to that but I imagine it didn't help.
This concerns me most of all. First of all I do not believe for a second that you do not remember your response. I think it is far more likely that your response was incriminating and you do not care to share it on this board for that reason. But this part is bad enough. Sure they threatened to kill your dog. I wish I knew why actually. But what did you respond with? Another threat!
And look at the response they gave. They thought your character is a minor villain already. Now why could they possibly think this, Caleb? You don't think that it is possible that you are responsible for this? You don't think that your character's actions have lead them to believe your character isn't to be trusted?
They argued for some time over what to do. One of the things that came up was me asking for them to find a solution that allow me to keep playing my character. I was told then, at that time, by two of the players that they felt I needed to play someone else. The paladin told me twice, "I can't think of a reason to adventure with him."
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The GM stepped in at that time and had a NPC intervene. He made it clear that this was in no way okay for anyone to do and that the characters had no right or power to be doing it.
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...I caught enough to know that they were still arguing their points while Sabbacc was reproving them for taking it as far as they did. He also firmly told them in and out of character that I had really good reasons to keep the scroll from the party and that Cosimo was actually a big part of the plot by now. If they wanted to keep playing, they had to do so with me playing Cosimo.
I want you to look at what you wrote here and interpret it from the eyes of the other players. Their characters already do not like Cosimo due to his past actions. They felt so strongly about this issue that they didn't feel they could continue with Cosimo in the party. If I am not mistaken they also felt this way out of character.
Their concerns have now been dismissed both in character and out of character. They now have been given an ultimatum that if they want to continue to come to Sabbacc's game that they have to continue to deal with having Cosimo in their party. So rather than resolve the problem by removing the one player/character that is the cause of the conflict everyone else would have to either adapt their current character, make a new character that is amiable to adventuring with such a deceitful character, or leave the game.
What kind of fun is that?! I can't tell you how strongly I am opposed to this kind of ultimatum being issued at a game table. I am really holding back right now to not share how upsetting this kind of behavior from a DM is unacceptable. The message that this sends to the other players is "This is Caleb and my game. The plot revolves so heavily around his character that your characters are considered pawns by contrast. Whether you like the character or his play style is irrelevant to me as I am not concerned about whether this game is fun for you all or not. This game will only continue with me as the DM and Caleb playing Cosimo. If you don't like it, well... there is the door. Don't let it hit you where the Good Lord split you."
And not only that, its worse. Caleb, you were upset when the paladin's player tried to "control your character" by stating that he didn't think you were on your riding dog the entire time. How do you think that player feels when his character is getting controlled by the DM by way of the above mentioned ultimatum? He is being forced to accept your character for OOC reasons when he has IC reasons not to. He is being forced to metagame.
And then there is this gem:
"Your people? You make it sound like you are not part of this community." I pointed out she didn't want him to be part of it anyway, but that yes, amoung ratfolk Cosimo was a leader and that gave him a bit of political power in this situation.
You said this yourself! I pointed it out earlier in this post, in fact. You said, "While he views his party as friends, they are not part of his ratfolk community and he would have no problem leaving them to die if things become overwhelming." That player's character was correct. How can you possibly condemn them for having their character react to what they knew was your character's inclination?
Sabbacc and I talked about it afterwards. He felt like he had lost control of the game and that everyone but me and him were out of line.
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There really isn't a question at this point. We do want to keep doing the behind the scenes work, the secret agendas, and wtf moments, but it is also clear that we need to find a proper balance.
And just to come around to my initial reaction at the start of this post... really? Because what has transpired already hasn't clued you in that the other players do not appreciate this play style? And what about their characters? Is the DM just going to tell them, "You are not allowed to play your character as mistrusting Cosimo. You trust him."?
I'm sorry if I come across as accusatory, Caleb. I am genuinely trying to be helpful and offer advice. Unfortunately, to me it seems like you aren't interested in hearing any advice that requires you to take ownership of having a heavy hand in causing this problem. I do not really understand why it is such a hard concept for you to grasp that you party doesn't trust your character that is admittedly deceitful.
I really don't think this is an IC issue at this point. It is an OOC issue. For your game to succeed you are going to need to adopt a play style that is more enriching to the fun everyone is having. From my perspective your play style seems "selfishly fun" for lack of a better term. I know you said that is not your intention but it appears that your actions have proved otherwise in your party's eyes. Do you honestly think that it is your play group's best interest for you to continue to be deceitful with them?
Here is my suggestion:
Your DM trusts you to keep OOC knowledge separate from IC knowledge and to not metagame. You trust your DM to keep your IC secrets from the party. You and your DM both need to be more open. Share your IC actions with them OOC but make it clear that their characters do not know what your character is doing. Allow them the same respect your DM is showing you. Lay a foundation of trust.
It is possible to play a game where all IC actions are out in the open and players know things that their characters do not. This can lead to a very rewarding and enriched story building. Your group in particular could benefit from adopting this play style.
I also wanted to point out that I think we are still seeing this issue through rose tinted lenses. We are having this explained from the perspective from two individuals that feel that everyone else was out of line. I understand that you likely wouldn't want the other players to see this thread. I'm unsure if that is because you enjoy being a deceitful person or if you just enjoy playing a character that is deceitful to his party despite their displeasure. However, I wish there was some way to hear the other player's perspectives on this issue. Preferably from their own mouth (fingers?). I would imagine that we would get an entirely different perspective of the events than those presented here.
Its funny though because even when viewed through rose colored lenses I still sympathize with the rest of the party.
Well, then, Caleb... the only thing I can say is that I wish the problem player in my game was as receptive as you (currently) seem to the need to change your play style for the betterment of everyone's game.
Just a minor point to make with that quote, Lune, Caleb said in the post the Paladin said he was going to attempt to grapple him, resulting in an Initiative Roll-off, and Caleb with his high roll (plus high modifiers) won Initiative.
Should the Paladin have not attempted to grab Cosimo, there would have been no need for Cosimo to do the actions he did (which is a Slumber attempt and a run away attempt). Cosimo probably wouldn't have done the actions he did would the Paladin have not tried to grab him (and not be able to since Cosimo reacted faster than the Paladin).
Honestly? I find that while I agree that the Paladin is wise to try and stop him through non-lethal means, I do believe that it is still a case of Lawful Stupid playstyle, in that Signs of Evil = Smite and Attack. There was no "What is up with the Scroll anyway?" or any signs of talk. It just seems like the Paladin sees something awkward with his party member, thinks he's being evil (and influences it with his fellow party members), and tries to act like a policeman/guard, in that Cosimo gives up the Scroll, or is under arrest and would suffer torture for possession and disobeying a police officer.
That's not Paladinship. That's Lawful Corrupt (AKA Lawful Stupid) play at best. There's no Good in such rash behavior; it's even Chaotic in its irrational methods of inquiry, and is something that Cosimo warned the Paladin about (should he have continued down that path), and the GM attempted to enforce with the NPCs. It's not something that is approved of as a Paladin, and honestly, he should have fallen for acting that way.
Oh, well that is good. I do so enjoy yelling at people over the interwebs. ;)
Darksol: Because the paladin did not win initiative he had not yet attempted to grapple Cosimo. Caleb did know out of character that the player's intention was to have his character grapple Cosimo but acting on out of character information in character would be metagaming.
So, seeing as he had nothing yet to provoke him (or allow for him to claim "self defense") Cosimo very much did throw the first punch.
Regarding the "lawful stupid playstyle" I disagree. I think it was out of character for the paladin to have went as far as he did with such a deceitful character in the party. In fact, I think he likely should have broke his code by knowingly associating with evil characters. And I'm not sure where you are getting that there was no talk about the scroll before hand. There was an entire session that was missed by Caleb where I bet the scroll was the topic of much discussion. And they did talk to Cosimo about it too and as far as I can tell he reacted very defensively (read: suspiciously).
The problem with this issue I think is with the DM. I think through a culmination of his other actions that Cosimo's alignment would likely have shifted and should have detected as evil. I'm sure the DM would disagree with me on this though as he was in on the hoax. Clearly Cosimo's intentions were not good though and purposefully trying to withhold an important and valuable magic item from the rest of the party is something that the paladin should have involved himself in. Classically if you offer a threat and ultimatum to a paladin, I don't see them as acting any other way than this one did:
"No, you can not have this important valuable party treasure. I will keep it for myself and not let you have it. You can have it when you pry it from my cold dead hands."
"I accept your conditions, deceiver."
Yep, seems paladinish to me. And no, I do not think it is lawful stupid at all. Perhaps if it were an isolated incident but not with everything that transpired prior to it.
It's Lawful Stupid in that the Paladin did nothing with the Evil Characters, and that a character who associates with Evil is thusly Evil, and deserves to die (when Neutral characters don't make that distinction). I mean come on, the Paladin has a Detect Evil feature for a reason; if Cosimo does not radiate evil, and shows no inherent benefit to good, then he is obviously Neutral, an alignment that makes no disparity between Good or Evil.
It's something that he signed up and was on-board with, and the Paladin isn't breaking a Code for not killing every Evil thing that comes across his way. By that logic, every time a Paladin enters a Neutral (or Evil) Town, he has to roll percentiles to fall (or it's automatic when in an Evil Town). That's Lawful Stupid. Last I checked, 95% of Paladin codes don't say "Evil = Kill, Refusal to Kill Evil = Fall," especially a Code that either includes or expands on the concept of Redemption.
In regards to the whole initiative thing, there was no "meta-gaming" to be had. In a realistic scenario, when the Paladin's character said "I'm going to grapple Cosimo," the Paladin on the "map" would move towards Cosimo, and if Cosimo did not want him to advance so suddenly and (appear as if trying to) grab him, then Cosimo would react; hence, an initiative would take place. That's not meta-gaming at all, and is something that the GM would officiate as to how it would happen in RAW.
Now then, as for the Scroll, it's something that they don't entirely know about, nor is it something that they have looked at with all possible angles, whereas Cosimo does. It could very well be a cursed scroll that can only be held by an Arcane Caster, and if held or opened by another that it would explode as a Magic Item would (i.e. "Snapping a Wand" in 3.x). They don't know that, and for all they know, it could very well not be valuable treasure.
If anything, the whole "discussion" was done behind his back, and while this isn't the problem, the issue is that all that pretty much happened was that he got the Scroll, the Party grows suspicious as to why he wants it so bad, and he doesn't say why, and goes along his merry way with the party to follow, baffled.
They then believe that due to past actions that he is sabotaging their group, and say "Give us the Scroll," No, they didn't sit down and talk to his PC about it, they didn't attempt to Identify what the scroll is or anything. Since the PC has no strong ties to the party, he says "I refuse, and would sooner die than give it up," as a reply.
Another thing to consider is that the Scroll wasn't even on his person, and if it was never found, the Paladin would be charged with killing an innocent sentient being (or at least the involvement of such), which is something that would most certainly cause him to fall.
That's Lawful Stupid. Talking behind his back with other party members, making demands without first asking as to the reasoning behind him hiding the scroll, and then going to tie him up due to his refusal? Paladinhood doesn't work that way, and I sure as hell know multiple GM's that would put their palm in their face at that; even if I am not a GM, I would be classified as one of them.
II mean come on, the Paladin has a Detect Evil feature for a reason; if Cosimo does not radiate evil, and shows no inherent benefit to good, then he is obviously Neutral, an alignment that makes no disparity between Good or Evil...
Now then, as for the Scroll, it's something that they don't entirely know about, nor is it something that they have looked at with all possible angles, whereas Cosimo does. It could very well be a cursed scroll that can only be held by an Arcane Caster, and if held or opened by another that it would explode as a Magic Item would (i.e. "Snapping a Wand" in 3.x). They don't know that, and for all they know, it could very well not be valuable treasure.
Read Detect Evil sometime. He has to be pretty high level or a anti-paladin or something to detect as evil.
Next- Cosimo stole that scroll from the party. The part as a whole found it, it was not up to just Cosimo to take it , hide it and refuse to hand it over. He didn't give them a chance to figure out what it was and decide what to do with it- AS A PARTY.
But I agree with Lune. The real problem here is that we have a DM and a player that have decided to make the other three players play with a character they choose not to. This is wrong.
I see multiple facets to this, and I confess I am a little bias because I am DMing a campaign where one of the characters is evil, and plotting against the party. What is probably going to prevent an implosion when the betrayal happens is that the other players are either somewhat aware, mature/chill enough to handle it, or are already convinced the betrayer is an NPC (the player's previous character was kidnapped suddenly) as well as the fact that when revealed, the betrayer will no longer want to be in the party.
On Cosimo: I don't think Cosimo was really being evil, so there is that. He was being guided by a force he didn't completely understand, manipulating things perhaps beyond his control, and doing things that are very sketchy (but which he thought were for a good cause). He also has a track record of trying to do things on the sly, and things that are generally good (freeing the captives when the rest of the party gate-crashed in the first part). It is in character for him to not be terribly trusting, except for the fact that during the time-gap the group were "good friends", so presumably he trusts them somewhat. So while his conduct meant a confrontation was inevitable (why I generally don't play sneaky manipulator types), I don't look at it and go "no, you shouldn't have done that". The bigger problem I see is less with his conduct prior to confrontation, and more with his adversarial conduct once the confrontation began.
On the party: They were completely justified being suspicious and upset. I think they took it a bit too far (how does a paladin of Sarenrae not fall for taking a non-evil being, beating them unconscious for multiple days with no food or water, then tacitly condoning torture? I see no redemption, and little lawful good, there, but that is whole different issue). He was obviously hiding something and being evasive, so a confrontation was inevitable. A "trust me guys, you don't want to deal with this scroll that likely very important and powerful" is not going to assuage suspicion on a character that has been established as sneaky and deceptive, been seen interacting with known evil and opposing NPCs, and who they are concerned has been acting strangely.
Sum up: I am not sure Cosimo did anything horrible, and was being in character. At the same time, I can't imagine the rest of the party feeling any other way than they do now. They have a deceptive cheat who is acting strange and hiding something potentially of great power and has been seen talking with someone that pinged as evil and is an associate of an opposing organization. I would not want him in my party. I think they were extreme in their course of action, and I think the situation was made vastly worse by the players' states of mind at the time of play.
The bottom line, with events having turned out as they did, if I was forced into a party with Cosimo, I would probably keep a weapon trained on him at all times, or save up some money and have someone put a geas on him. He would not be trusted with anything important ever again, and if he does something suspicious again, he would get the boot. Nothing short of an obvious display of divine intervention would make me trust Cosimo again anytime soon.
Forcing Cosimo on them seems like a very poor plan when so much tension will follow. The players will be incredibly unhappy. You are better off retiring Cosimo for the time being. Maybe as things unfold, the DM can reveal that Cosimo was trying to act in their best interests. But for now, his credibility is shot, he is distrusted and perhaps even hated by the rest of the party. Forcing them to work with him is a good way to fracture the group completely.
Apologies for the long post. Did not expect to say as much as I did.
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Okay, Point-By-Point. I don't want to quote things, because would just make this post huge.
I didn't say it was the solution. I said it was an idea. We don't have a plan, we have a goal. The goal is ever changing but right now it summs up to this: Find a way to continue the game with everyone satisfied. The suggested idea could have that effect, but for now we are waiting to hear back from the rest of the party before making actual plans.
On the matter of the word "messed" I think we are having a language problem. For now, I will just agree with you and say that yes, under your interpretation of the word and how I used it, you are right. I have not, however, made any actual long term plans to harm the party, steal the spotlight, rob them of glory and riches, or kill a character. In deed, I wanted the end game to be that my character looks to be a good guy when the dust is cleared. I may never have that chance now.
While my parties actions may be justified, that doesn't mean the players were in the right to allow themselves to take it as far as they did. If you were there, you would have seen a snowball effect. I admitted to being the start of it already, but once I made that mistake, it was out of my hands and all in theirs. I was a spectator who was only trying to stay away from the running bulls, or at least that is how I felt. At any one point of that game someone besides me or the GM could have, and should have stopped and asked, "What the hell are we doing?" I did make comments along those lines but I wasn't firm enough and I was shutting down both as a defense and because of sugar crash. Sabbacc just seemed too shocked to do anything until it reached the climax. That is where my real issue is with what happened. Instead of stopping everything and asking to talk about it all, we all just let it happen. I felt bullied and angry, and I respond to those feelings with light humor, silence, and attempts to separate from the source of stress. Now I feel ashamed, disappointed, and a bit excited as this is now a challenge. I still want an apology, but I recognize that I should give one as well.
As for trusting my character:
- He rebuilt and maintained a monastery dedicated to Saint Vardishall, a saint and avatar for Sarenrae. He founded a new community there of ratfolk that worship the Dawnflower and is one of the leaders of that community.
- He has been more than fair with treasure.
- I have used feats and traits to provide custom gear above WBL.
- He has been invaluable in combat, saving the various party members from great harm.
- I have actually made subpar combat choices just to allow other party members a chance at the spotlight.
- His scouting has provided invaluable information.
- Outside of the slumber hex on the paladin, and a use of one spell in attempt to get the magus to eat buggs (Everyone thought that hilarious, BTW) I haven't used any harmful effect against the party.
- He has actually been supportive of the other characters. For example, he sided with the paladin when he told the party we couldn't loot the temple of Sarenrae.
- While he supports the concept of slavery, he has had no problem freeing them either.
Granted, negative traits often overpower positive ones, and I am sure if a list of reasons why they shouldn't trust him it would just as long.
The comment on the dog was made during a time that I was pretty much shutting down. However, I forgot to mention that Caleb, Cosimo's dog, has been with the party from the beginning and is a very important part of Cosimo's life. The group knew well that it was like a son to him, and that harming the dog was viewed by Cosimo as if they had just killed his child. The act wouldn't have just been mean, it would have been cruel and unusual.
It also wasn't really a threat, it was more a joke. But even that is a bit cruel and unusual.
I really, truely, and honestly don't remember my response. I seem to remember having one, but I can't remember what it was. It probably was incriminating.
Yeah, if they thought he was a minor villain, I did something to allow them to think that. However, this was only time I can remember that they actually suggested it. I knew they didn't trust Cosimo, but not at the level they considered.
I still feel that they allowed themselves to be blinded by fear and paranoia. I hope they can think of reasons when we talk about it in person next thursday. If not, I hope they can accept the reasons I present. If they cannot, then I guess I should play someone else.
Sabbacc's ultimatum was made because at that time we were all frustrated, stressed, and a bit hurt. If you can think of a GM who could have kept calm and made a great choice on how to handle the situaiton, I want to play with him. I haven't yet met someone like that. Many GMs would probably resort to a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies," situation where no one would be able to play their character. Imagine that, a TPK without actually having to kill any PCs. That could have happened with a lesser man. Instead, he kept the party together and left it open enough so we could figure it out later. Another solution would have been to side with them, tell me to make another character, and have me even more hurt and angry. He knows me very, very well, and I suspect he knew I wouldn't have reacted very well to that. Just look at how I responded to keeping my character!
You are right, the paladin probably felt the same way when the GM told him he was going to have to adventure with Cosimo. But isn't that apples and oranges? A player dictating another PC's actions isn't acceptable. Sure a GM doing the same isn't much better, but there are times when that is needed. I trust that Sabbacc felt it was needed.
On the community comment and Cosimo not belonging to it, here is another way to view that. At that time, we were at the tail end, I was looking for ways to calm everyone down, keep my character, and keep the game going. By admitting that he wasn't part of the community, I was suggested that they didn't need to demand he be exiled. I was also trying to suggest that they needed to consider the political and economic consequences their demands were making. It was also at the tail end, when no one was saying things we were proud of.
To be fair, the party hasn't said they don't appreciate this kind of play style. We are giving them a chance to, and if it turns out we need to change things majorly, then so be it. Until we can ask them, all we can do is base our plans on our own hopes and goals. We do plan on asking them, it is just going to take a bit to do so.
I think we have both IC and OOC issues, and I think everyone needs to consider making changes. Just saying that the fault lies with me and the GM is a bit harsh. If the party didn't like it, they needed to speak up. If they were not having fun, they know they should have said so. We are a pretty close and open group, and have had those talks before. Changes were made and we were able to move on. They were open about not trusting my character, but it was only at the blow up that I remember them saying they couldn't play with him anymore. Why did they wait until things got so bad to bring it up? If they felt that way, and hid that from the group, wasn't that just as bad? I am not saying I don't need to look inside myself and change how I am playing this campaign, I intend to do just that. I just hope they do the same.
For now, I can't accept your suggestion as a solution. Things may change as we talk and listen to the other players, but for now I have to trust that Sabbacc wants to keep the hidden things hidden. Besides, I may not have mentioned it, but I kept feeling like some of the players were metagaming.
Sabbacc has two weeks before the next game. I have a month because I will be missing the next game. That is plenty of time to think things through and come up with a plan. I have faith we can work this out. Talking on these boards has helped a good deal as well.
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Read Detect Evil sometime. He has to be pretty high level or a anti-paladin or something to detect as evil.Next- Cosimo stole that scroll from the party. The part as a whole found it, it was not up to just Cosimo to take it , hide it and refuse to hand it over. He didn't give them a chance to figure out what it was and decide what to do with it- AS A PARTY.
But I agree with Lune. The real problem here is that we have a DM and a player that have decided to make the other three players play with a character they choose not to. This is wrong.
Cosimo is level 7, same as the paladin. Not once has he detected evil. I joked it was because of the lead sheet I kept putting up, in hindsight that was a poor joke. The point is, he doesn't. The paladin doesn't have Detect Good, and if I was a betting man I would say the GM would actually say Cosimo radiated good when St. Vardishall was influencing him.
Actually, the party did inspect it. Detect Magic, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft was rolled. It was determined to be a MeGuffin for Part 3, nothing more. Realizing the quest now was to figure out what it was and why people wanted it, we moved on. The argument over it started not long after that. Cosimo knew that it was safest on his person, as those who wanted it wouldn't dare to take it from him. He just couldn't explain why.
Look at my post above when it comes to the GM's decision to have the other players continue with Cosimo. Still, let us look at his options:
1. Exactly what he did. We are yet to see how that pans out but I suspect it will work out in the end. If I have to play another character because the players are insisting on it, I will. Maybe I will be able to play the insane goblin alchemist I have been eyeing for some time. Either way, this provided the least amount of hurt feelings and will allow us to open up and talk about it.
2. He told me that I couldn't play Cosimo after I made it very, very clear that I wanted to keep playing him. I was already feeling bullied, hurt, and shutting down. He knows me very well and knows how I handle things. Siding with the other players would mean I didn't have a friend to vouch for me. I would have handled things horribly, horribly bad, caused hurt feelings, and spent a week in anger, only to blow at the next game or facebook. If I didn't blow up, I would have been hurt enough to quit the group, end the game I am GMing, and stop talking to everyone for a while. Best case scenario, I would have made a character but played him as a background set piece and hoped the game ended quickly.
3. He sides with no one and has everyone retire. Imagine how that would have gone. Not good.
4. He sides with no one and let the party work it out. Someone already mentioned somewhere that they have heard of games where this basically happened. It didn't lead to good things and I can't imagine it would have led to good things in our case.
5. Ended the game the moment things got hairy, called it a night, and asked everyone to think long and hard about what had happened. Problem would have been that we would have had a week or two of not knowing if Cosimo was going to be released, or if the party was going to continue without him. This could work out great, but it could also turn into a flame war on Facebook as we discuss how to proceed. Most likely good, I will give you that. However, which GM do you know that would have made that call? Unless they experienced this type of problem before, they wouldn't. Carl has never had a blow up like this, so he didn't know what to do or how to stop it. Now he does.
Can you think of other ways to handle this? It would be good to point them out for anyone reading this, as I am sure plenty of people are learning what to do and what not to do in their own games.
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An OOC discussion seems in order here. You don't have to reveal exactly what's going on, but to let the other players know that while you may have been plotting, you weren't plotting against them. Tell them how upset you felt at being ganged up on - because it sounds like this was at least as hard on you OOC as it was for Cosimo.
Make sure you let them know that you understand why they were worried about your behaviour. It is the DM's job to make sure that individual plotting isn't destructive to the group as a whole, and it is a shame that they didn't trust the DM to do this job. But you did come out of a civil chat with an evil creature and say that you didn't want to talk about it. The rest of the party may have over-reacted to that, but it was entirely reasonable of them to be suspicious and antagonistic. You seem to understand your role in escalating this situation based on the discussions on this thread, so good on you for that.
Also notable and requiring special discussion is the fact that the DM gave Cosimo the scroll directly, by fiat, without giving the entire party a chance to talk about this item. That may have seemed like an important plot point, but it's a bad idea to make plot points that depend on somehow taking free choice away from some of the party - in this case, telling the other players that they didn't get the chance to have input on what happened to the scroll. The other players probably justifiably see this as DM favouritism. Making such an gift-wrapped item drop in a less arbitrary way might help, since it would give in-game reasons for those choices to be made (for example, Cosimo for whatever reason is the only person who can safely handle it). Amping up the other players' individual assignments might help with this too as it cuts out the favouritism element - especially if they're also given similar gifts.
Once you've sorted this out OOC, have a similar talk IC mediated by an NPC who can help you translate OOC discussion to IC discussion. If the characters actually have reason to get along - and it appears they do despite their differences - then that should come out. Then follow this up with Cosimo cutting out deception as much as possible.
If you can't sort this out OOC, ask if the other players would be OK with the DM running Cosimo with his plot-important details as an NPC and you picking up a new character. I really hope you can work it out but if it really goes sour it's not worth losing your friends over.
Finally, if there's any chance that what people consumed or did not consume worsened this situation, I suggest that everyone keep a closer eye on those habits. Conflict is bad enough when parties aren't intoxicated or under-fed.
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Can you think of other ways to handle this? It would be good to point them out for anyone reading this, as I am sure plenty of people are learning what to do and what not to do in their own games.
He could have handled the MacGuffin drop better (ie less like arbitrary favouritism). He could also have spoken more thoroughly to the other players and to you before it got to this point, once he realized the other players were concerned.
Once things started escalating, he could have called time-out, brought the discussion OOC and calmed everyone down, prevented everyone from ganging up on you but allowing them to express concerns, and then allowed the group to resolve the issue at hand IC.
He could also have entered an NPC arbitrator to the scene earlier if he could have made it at all plausible plot-wise, stopping things before they escalated too badly.
If he disapproved of the paladin's actions from a moral point of view, he could have warned that player OOC that this was fall-worthy, or IC given him a vision from Sarenrae that this was a situation that called for mercy and reconciliation instead of retribution, perhaps reminding the paladin of Cosimo's good deeds.
He could have called time-out, pulled you aside, and given you something to say that revealed some of the truth but not so much it would wreck the plot, especially since you seemed for whatever reason incapable of holding up an argument. This would be risky, as the other players might have seen it as more plotting. A less risky, similar alternative could have him spill as much of the beans as possible as soon as he took over playing your character, since it seems much of your reluctance to talk was based on not wanting to betray the DM's trust.
On this last point, I also think it was a bad call to put secrets that cannot for plot reasons be revealed to the party at large into the hands of a PC, especially if the secrets need to be kept more than one session, and especially if the rest of the group is already suspicious about that PC. If you cannot reveal the harmless plot when the others get nervous, it removes the easiest way to quickly relieve this conflict.
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I won't pretend to be Sabbacc and so I won't try and explain why he didn't do all those things. I will say it was clear afterwards that he had never had that bad of a problem in a game before, and was unclear as to what he should do.
I could have easily made better choices as well. Thinking about it, I could have stopped the game and told everyone that I thought they had plenty of opportunity to figure out what was going on but clearly hadn't yet. Then, using the detailed notes I had taken for the group, walked them through it all. We basically have a lesson on why you need to pay attention in games, and why you can't assume people paid attention. I kept telling them they had enough information to figure it out, and hoping they would. If I had any sense during that night I would have helped them along when they were discussing it.
Here are the clues I do know they have:
- The Templars of the Five Winds were five genies bound to a Djinni name Nefeshti by powerful wish magic.
- They fought against a powerful foe, an Efreeti named Jhavhul. As far as we are aware, he is dead.
- The Templars were given immortality and great power as long as they were loyal and serving Nefeshti.
- Vardishal was the general of her armies and was known to seek out and destroy followers of Rovagug. He later became a saint of Sarenrae. He separated from Nefeshti and was killed.
- The monastery is built where he died.
- Zayifid was the spy of the group and was actually an efreeti. He too separated from Nefeshti and the Templars.
- Cosimo didn't start acting strange until the monastery when he found a magical quarterstaff.
- The quarterstaff keeps growing in power, though I am unsure how the PCs would know that.
- Zayifid called Cosimo by the name Vardishal several times, Cosimo acted like he was actually the Templar.
- The scroll is a powerful artifact that Zayifid wants, and apparently Vardishal was looking for as well.
- Zayifid asked for the scroll and Cosimo refused him. It was clear that he wasn't just going to take it from him.
- Zayifid made a show of power twice and proved to be a very gifted deceiver, as well as a dangerous foe.
- While I can't remember if any of the public conversations showed it, but Cosimo hasn't treated Zayifid as a friend. He would rather see him dead than alive, but I don't think I had opportunity to reveal that.
- Cosimo likes to try and handle things alone. As far as he is concerned, this thing with Zayifid is his buisness. Also, if he can protect the party by handling it alone, he will. I proved this many times, in combats, in separating from the group (which everyone did watch and was privy to,) and in a few public RP moments with NPCs.
To be honest, I don't have much more than that that is secret and kept from the group. There is the whole worship of Sivahna, but she has only come into play twice behind the scenes and both times it benefited the party or Cosimo. There is the fact that Cosimo is infused with Vardishal's essence/spirit/consciousness. Almost all of the notes passed to me were about emotions or goals Vardishal had. I just went through the ones I could find and there was little I could find that was any big secret. All of the goals I completed out in the open, none of them were harmful, and most of them lead the party towards more plot. If anything, they were a display of good traits Cosimo never really displayed before. Showing concern for an enemy, remorse over his death, and disappointment that he fell being the biggest moment of that kind.
The problem was two fold: Cosimo himself has negative traits that are hard not to focus on (argumentative, sneaky, secretive, etc.) and I was showing, bragging, and joking about how much I enjoyed playing that type of character. I mentioned before a few of my jokes about how he was really evil and plotting to kill everyone. I would follow those up with, "Not really guys, I am just joking," but not much more. In hindsight, I should have dropped the evil jokes and possibly joked that he was really a good guy in disguise, or something similar. I also should have been more helpful in assisting them in figuring out what was going on.
In short, there were plenty of clues as to what was really going on, they just clearly forgot them, I got caught up with excitement over the wrong parts of my character, and there is a better way to handle this.
I'm going to start by admitting that I did not read everything. I read most of the content beneath the "Blow Up" and "What Sabbacc Said" spoilers, in addition to your most recent post. I skimmed the post about your party, and did not read the sections that were specific to the LoF AP.
With that said, the understanding I have reached is thus:
Cosimo is infused with the spirit/consciousness of a saint of Sarenrae's church. A Paladin OF Sarenrae was acting against him. When the party turned on Cosimo, this paladin's connection to his god should have piped up to inform the paladin that, hey buddy, Cosimo is doing the Dawnflower's work. If you keep acting against him, you are acting against her. You'll Fall.
Ideally, having it happen as events unfolded might have mitigated or prevented some of what was going on, but, it could just happen now? A servant of Sarenrae could appear to the paladin during his dreams to clear up with him that Cosimo was doing her work and you best not get in the way any more.
Of course, that's up to the DM to do or not do, and not yourself. I honestly don't see how any of this situation is your responsibility though? You can't control what story is being told by the DM. Some of the players are upset by Plot Stuff. As a fellow player, you can't be accountable for that.
For the paladin's part, though, it kind of seems like maybe this was a test of the paladin's faith, and ... he failed?
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I'm going to start by admitting that I did not read everything. I read most of the content beneath the "Blow Up" and "What Sabbacc Said" spoilers, in addition to your most recent post. I skimmed the post about your party, and did not read the sections that were specific to the LoF AP.
With that said, the understanding I have reached is thus:
Cosimo is infused with the spirit/consciousness of a saint of Sarenrae's church. A Paladin OF Sarenrae was acting against him. When the party turned on Cosimo, this paladin's connection to his god should have piped up to inform the paladin that, hey buddy, Cosimo is doing the Dawnflower's work. If you keep acting against him, you are acting against her. You'll Fall.
Ideally, having it happen as events unfolded might have mitigated or prevented some of what was going on, but, it could just happen now? A servant of Sarenrae could appear to the paladin during his dreams to clear up with him that Cosimo was doing her work and you best not get in the way any more.
Of course, that's up to the DM to do or not do, and not yourself. I honestly don't see how any of this situation is your responsibility though? You can't control what story is being told by the DM. Some of the players are upset by Plot Stuff. As a fellow player, you can't be accountable for that.
For the paladin's part, though, it kind of seems like maybe this was a test of the paladin's faith, and ... he failed?
Not really, he rat isn't infused with anything, apparently one of the npcs just thinks that the character in question is some long lost good guy.
It's all a pretty big missunderstanding, the word spotlight hog has been thrown arround. If the ratfolk witch hadn't been so secretive thre would have been little to no problem here. Of course the GM is partly to blame.
At the end it boils down to this: the group needs to have a talk about what happened and how to handle situations like that in future. If the OP wants to continue to play these characters he might have to live with the chance of losing the trust of the other player characters and die.
Not really, he rat isn't infused with anything, apparently one of the npcs just thinks that the character in question is some long lost good guy.
Alright, if that's the case then fair enough, but I think it's easy to see how one might get an impression to the contrary given...
There is the fact that Cosimo is infused with Vardishal's essence/spirit/consciousness.
I see multiple facets to this, and I confess I am a little bias because I am DMing a campaign where one of the characters is evil, and plotting against the party. What is probably going to prevent an implosion when the betrayal happens is that the other players are either somewhat aware, mature/chill enough to handle it, or are already convinced the betrayer is an NPC (the player's previous character was kidnapped suddenly) as well as the fact that when revealed, the betrayer will no longer want to be in the party.
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If you have good players, you can discuss this OOC without giving any details, and get their buy-in. If they are mature enough to handle this, they are mature enough to not bring in the OOC knowledge.
Never spring this on the other players by surprise.
Look, there is a unspoken contract here. The idea is that D&D is a cooperative not competative GAME. Being a game, it need to be Fun, thus the players and their PC's go along with whatever PC the other guy wants to run. Even if, IRL, their character would be highly suspicious, check out the background, etc. But no-one wants to spend days of table-time doing that, esp since during this period the new guy can't play.
Thus it is unfair of a player or DM to take advantage of this unspoken contract.
We had a DM & player do this once. His best friend was gonna be in town for a month, so they dropped in a PC for the guy for a month. We accepted him. He screwed us over big time. Ok, but next time that guy was in town, we declined to let him sit in for a short time again. Who really lost out here?
I have actually made subpar combat choices just to allow other party members a chance at the spotlight.
- His scouting has provided invaluable information.
- Outside of the slumber hex on the paladin, and a use of one spell in attempt to get the magus to eat buggs (Everyone thought that hilarious, BTW) I haven't used any harmful effect against the party. ...
.Sabbacc's ultimatum was made because at that time we were all frustrated, stressed, and a bit hurt. If you can think of a GM who could have kept calm and made a great choice on how to handle the situaiton, I want to play with him. I haven't yet met someone like that. Many GMs would probably resort to a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies," situation where no one would be able to play their character. Imagine that, a TPK without actually having to kill any PCs. That could have happened with a lesser man. Instead, he kept the party together and left it open enough so we could figure it out later. Another solution would have been to side with them, tell me to make another character, and have me even more hurt and angry. He knows me very, very well, and I suspect he knew I wouldn't have reacted very well to that. Just look at how I responded to keeping my character!
Umm, these thing actually make it worse. The fact that you are so powerful you have to scale it back to avoid outshining the rest of the party is a Bad Thing.
And just those two things alone would make my PC say "Sorry, he's not part of the party anymore. Either he goes or I go."
No, the right thing to do is vote. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is childish. But if 3 players say "No, we'd rather not play with this PC anymore." then they have the majority and that's the way it is.
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2. He told me that I couldn't play Cosimo after I made it very, very clear that I wanted to keep playing him. I was already feeling bullied, hurt, and shutting down. He knows me very well and knows how I handle things. Siding with the other players would mean I didn't have a friend to vouch for me. I would have handled things horribly, horribly bad, caused hurt feelings, and spent a week in anger, only to blow at the next game or facebook. If I didn't blow up, I would have been hurt enough to quit the group, end the game I am GMing, and stop talking to everyone for a while.
If the majority of players don't care to adventure with your character anymore, you need to be mature enough to sigh and agree, then make up a new PC nothing at all like the old one. In fact, I really suggest this. Do it on your own. Make up a Good Cleric or Oracle, apologize to the other players, and sink back into the background for a while.
You may be very close to getting a bad gaming rep. This may mean other players will refuse to game with you anymore.
Alright, so I read most of this and just realize that I don't DM so I have nothing to say in that accord.
First off, I too do not see Cosimo as evil, however what I see and what the player's characters see are 2 very different things.
Now onto some of what I read (most of it, but not all of it mind you):
The first thing that caught my eye was the rest of the party being asked to do nothing while you run around saving the slaves. As a player, I can say that being forced to the sidelines and not being part of a big moment sucks. If I was asked to just sit there while someone else was going to "take care of everything" while also being kept in the dark about what he was going to do to take care of said everything, I'd be annoyed. Which is why I expect your party members decided to storm the front. They wanted something significant to do, not stand around and wait for one person to do something of importance which they had no idea what that was.
Next and in my opinion the biggest thing, is the keeping the rest of the players in the dark. Complete dark mind you. You told them nothing. You could have told them that what info you were keeping secret, was in some way trying to keep them or other people safe or needed to be kept safe for a greater good.
Now, you did say you would offer some information if you could see your family. However, given your past sneakiness and secrecy the other players couldn't be expected to fully trust that, especially in the moods they seemed to be in. I probably would have thought you intended to get your sobbing wife and kids to try to pull a "don't hurt my daddy / husband" card on me. Those are never fun.
I will definitely say that the paladin was acting odd and that soon, very soon in fact there should be an in game way for him to realize he was tipping over the line (for a paladin at least).
However, I will not say that the interrogation was unwarranted. You were keeping them in the dark, chillin with what looked to be evil people, not handing over an almost obviously important document and not telling them why you won't hand it over as if they're just going to rip it into pieces when they get it all sound like good enough reasons to me to interrogate mr. sneaky. Maybe not attack, but asking brutal questions did seem to be in order.
From the outside looking in though, it looks like the game has become more about your character (even if unintended) than the actual legacy of fire game, as every time the players turn around something odd or suspicious is happening around your character. This could be leading to the rest of the players feeling less important, especially when the DM says that "You will have to play with Cosimo."
That solution, while keeping your character alive isn't going to help him. It makes your character seem untouchable, protected and favored by the DM. Even if that isn't true, that may be what the other players could be thinking. If that is the case and I suspect it is due to some of the things you've said they have mentioned, the other players will more than likely resent your character, stop trusting or caring for him completely and thus not care about the plots surrounding him.
After all. You're not supposed to touch him. He won't tell you anything at all. You're forced to have him in your party. A lot of plot elements are based around him (most of which you're not going to find out.) All this would be very frustrating and un-fun for players.
There are clues and such that tell a bit of why he's getting visited, such as the possibility that the staff has infused him with the spirit of an important person. But since they've apparently not figured any of that out yet (yes their own faults) I would think getting them some information would help.
I would say a compromise is in order if your character is to be kept and the other players forced to play along side him. Some information (even just a little bit of useful info, not a lot), or possibly even the scroll being given to the rest of the party may help quite a bit. Of course out of game must first be taken care of. The other players may not be saying anything in an attempt to not come off as whiners.
In any case, it is interesting. Good luck.
@ DrDeth: I take it you don't play with Neutral or Evil characters, or even NPCs. Because if you did, what Caleb is talking about 90% of the time would happen, meaning you'd either kill them or quit or whatever.
Alignment is in place for a reason. Cosimo interacts with both Good (the party), and Evil (some NPCs), on an unbiased level; he is True Neutral. He can do whatever he wants. The Paladin should've known that such behavior is going to happen, and that if he truly didn't want him involved in the first place, he should've stopped it before it got any worse, as to the way it is now.
There is no point to having an Alignment if you're going to descriminate players for acting as their Alignment, which in turn causes some problems. While I do not like the fact that it caused problems, that's the way alignment works; sometimes it doesn't mix well, and it creates conflict. This situation is no different, since the Neutral character has his own means and reasons aside from the rest of the party (which seems to be Good), and doesn't feel no reason to compel any type of explanation.
The character is True Neutral; he does what he does, and he has his own means of enforcement or direction, it isn't in a set book of rules or laws, it isn't as if it's anarchy, it sure isn't good, and it sure isn't evil either. It's a jack of all trades that can be influenced, and is yet another path they didn't even think about.
Cosimo can do whatever he feels like, he has no restrictions or anything, and this should've been a Red Flag to the Paladin. There is no Stupid Evil behind this, it's just a matter of selfishness and greed, which is not a facet of Evil. He could've been convinced to spill the beans through other methods (and I don't mean bribery), not through means that can be easily misconstrued as torture, which is something a Paladin shouldn't even endorse in the first place, lest he risk falling from Paladinhood.
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If you have good players, you can discuss this OOC without giving any details, and get their buy-in. If they are mature enough to handle this, they are mature enough to not bring in the OOC knowledge.
We do have good players, and I am sure we are going to discuss this OOC. I even plan on it. However, maturity has nothing to do with keeping OOC knowledge out of IC play. It takes experience, will power, and a constant awareness of what is OOC and what is IC.
I don't think anyone displayed maturity during the blow-up game. Even I was immature in my ultimatum and possibly how I handled Cosimo.
Never spring this on the other players by surprise.
I might have been had at explaining this, but please go back and read my most recent posts and maybe even the first one. Not much has been sprung on them by surprise. This has been a slow, gradual build up. They were slowly fed the information, I was just made even more aware of it. Sure, there were secrets, but if the party paid attention and tried to piece it all together they could have. I think, after all of this discussion, one of the biggest problems was that we assumed they were paying attention and hoped they would figure it out before a blow up.
There is also the problem of not giving enough obvious clues, or making it clear that they were important. Lesson learned: Subtlety isn't the best policy in this game.
Look, there is a unspoken contract here. The idea is that D&D is a cooperative not competative GAME....Thus it is unfair of a player or DM to take advantage of this unspoken contract.
Wasn't it a break in that unspoken contract the moment the rest of the party brutalized my character? It stopped being fun for me at that point. In fact, I felt bullied. I am sure they were not having fun, at least I hope they were not, but it was their aggressive choices, not my subtle ones, that caused the game to stop being fun for everyone.
They knew full well that if the game is no longer fun, they need to speak up. So far, they haven't done that. I have asked them to share their side of the story, but so far I haven't heard it yet. If they tell me they were not having fun, I am going to ask them why they didn't speak up to me sooner.
Umm, these thing actually make it worse. The fact that you are so powerful you have to scale it back to avoid outshining the rest of the party is a Bad Thing.
That is your opinion, but I don't see it that way. Besides, in a one-on-one fight, my character would lose to just about everyone in the party. The only reason Cosimo had a chance at getting away was because he rode a riding dog.
And just those two things alone would make my PC say "Sorry, he's not part of the party anymore. Either he goes or I go."
What??? Providing valuable information and never using harmful effects are enough to say you don't want to adventure with a party? You must not have very many people you want to play with.
The scouting was something the party had no problem with, and eventually asked that I do. They were well aware that Cosimo could handle it, and I never did it unless they were okay with it.
As for TWO instances I used offensive spells, I think you are misunderstanding what those two cases were. The first one was a practical joke to get the naive magus to eat bugs. I think it was beguiling gift, and it failed. Everyone laughed pretty hard at that attempt though, and had not problem with it. The one time I used slumber, on the paladin, in the blow-up session, was defensive and I made it clear that it was. It was no worse than the paladin announce he was going to grapple Cosimo.
No, the right thing to do is vote. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is childish. But if 3 players say "No, we'd rather not play with this PC anymore." then they have the majority and that's the way it is.
Two players. The other two never said they didn't want to adventure with Cosimo.
If the majority of players don't care to adventure with your character anymore, you need to be mature enough to sigh and agree, then make up a new PC nothing at all like the old one. In fact, I really suggest this. Do it on your own. Make up a Good Cleric or Oracle, apologize to the other players, and sink back into the background for a while.You may be very close to getting a bad gaming rep. This may mean other players will refuse to game with you anymore.
It was the minority. Two out of a group of six (GM included) is hardly a majority.
And while I am a very mature person, I don't give in to bullying. That is what I felt it was, bullying. I may or may not have been the cause, they may or may not have been justified, but it was mean and taken a bit too far. If I simply had given in to the two players, I would have felt like I was giving in to bullies. That isn't maturity, that cowardice.
And I don't think we have enough information about how the other players feel to make a call as to if my "rep" is in danger or not.
Dr.Deth, I am going to ask that you stop commenting until we have the other player's side of the story. You have made your points clear, and I thank you for your suggestions, but I don't feel you have the best grasp of what has happened. Maybe we are speaking a different language (figuratively) or maybe I haven't explained things in a way you understand completely.
Thank you for you comments and suggestions, they have been helpful, just not in the way you would think.
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1) You may have thought the other players were getting plenty of clues, but remember the solution always looks more obvious to the person who knows what the relevant pieces of information are and how to put them together. If there is a lot of stuff going on in this campaign, the other players could easily miss the details relevant to Cosmio's story, or fail to put them together.
2) The other players may have acknowledged the utility of your scouting, but it still puts a spotlight on your character. The plot elements that make Cosimo apparently more indispensable than the entire rest of the party put together increases the spotlight, makes it more disproportional. PF teamwork isn't just about getting things done, it's about doing so in a way that everyone shares the spotlight. You're not sharing well.
3) Exacerbating the spotlighting is the fact that Cosimo also wanted to deal with the scroll alone when that wasn't an obvious case of "you are the scout, so scout" indicates a lack of teamwork. You might think you're protecting the rest of the party, but most parties expect to face these things together. That's the point of having a party. It's generally expected that even if one character has a problem that's largely personal, or that he has some key role in, the rest of the party will still be called in to assist in the venture and that their support will be acknowledged. For example, if one PC was being targeted by an assassin, in most parties the other PCs would help him track down the assassin and whoever hired it.
4) If Cosimo is in any way influenced by or acting for a Saint of Sarenrae, the DM should absolutely have given the Paladin a vision as soon as he announced hostile intent towards Cosimo. This could have explicitly put together the pieces you wanted the other players to catch (1) and probably de-escalated the immediate situation, but you would still need to work on (2) by scaling back the spotlight on Cosimo and scaling up the other character's special individual roles which you say they were supposed to get, and work on (3) by having Cosimo admit to the rest of the group that he can't handle all this on his own and needs help. Your DM dropped the ball on (1) but you can all still address (2) and (3)
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One note on point number four. I believe we forgot that Vardishal was a saint of Saernrea, or at least we over looked it. It was an unfortunate error, and I agree, it would have helped to have remembered that and used that to help the paladin.
I also want to say thatI forgot one important detail. Sabbatical has been making it clear that in part three everyone will be able to have secret plot stuff like Cosimo has had. Every one has been excited about this, and I suspect Sabbacc has been planning this so that it isn't just me being focused on.
The points that the game has turned into just about Cosimo is not totally correct, but I can agree to a point with that outlook. Keep in mind, you have only heard my side of the story and that I have focused heavily on my character in telling it. That said, my character has been given more than others. I wouldnt say it is all about Cosimo, but it certainly has much more to do with him then the others.
There has been focused storytelling for the characters. The paladin has an mentor who went missing in the world wound. The gunslinger owns her own tavern. The magus is still looking for his brother. These are not 2D characters in a 3D world, they have depth. I just haven't been able to represent them well.
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Not really, he rat isn't infused with anything, apparently one of the npcs just thinks that the character in question is some long lost good guy.Alright, if that's the case then fair enough, but I think it's easy to see how one might get an impression to the contrary given...
There is the fact that Cosimo is infused with Vardishal's essence/spirit/consciousness.
Oh I don`t know any more than I read in the two posts, but if there is actually something like that the case, I must have missed it.
EDIT: @Caleb, just from my point of view. The actions of your character would have annoyed me, if I was one of the other players in that game. It might very well be all a big missunderstanding, but I would like to mention one big thing:
People won't always tell you when they are unhappy with your actions, after all the don't want to insult you personally. They might not have stoped the game to talk with you about your charactes actions, and how it affects their experience, but attacking or threatening your character in the game, might have looked like a better alternative for them.
I am not saying that this was the right, or best reaction, after all you and the GM admit that they could have handeled the situation differently - but everyone makes mistakes.
The other posters have given you good advice, but there is only so much they can do to help. Going to the forum to ask for help is a usefull tactic (but to be honest, the leadership idea would have been received badly in the current situation)but going online and defending your actions isn`t that usefull. After all, you don't have to defend your actions in front of the whole pathfinder community - just your group.
It might be hard, but talk with everyone and make sure the differences are taken care of, if it's necessary retire your current character and make a new one. It's not worth losing players, or not getting invited to the next game.
From personal experience I can tell you, that once someone burns a bridge it, it's pretty much gone.
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It's not just the fact that you've summarized this from your POV. If the DM was being accurate when he said that it would be easier for plot-related reasons to retire the entire rest of the party (or even just the 2 most antagonistic) than it would be to retire Cosimo, you've got a problem. And if your DM told the other players that, you can bet they're feeling less important, even if they do have their own things going on.
One way or another, you and your DM need to convince them otherwise.
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It's not just the fact that you've summarized this from your POV. If the DM was being accurate when he said that it would be easier for plot-related reasons to retire the entire rest of the party (or even just the 2 most antagonistic) than it would be to retire Cosimo, you've got a problem. And if your DM told the other players that, you can bet they're feeling less important, even if they do have their own things going on.
One way or another, you and your DM need to convince them otherwise.
He never told the party that. That was my own statement, and I am unsure if he has even said it himself. At this time I see how unfortunate that statement is.
And considering the comments and advice here, not an accurate statement either. I am starting to realize and write down more and more solution ideas. Until we can talk to everyone we won't know which will work the best.
I want to thank everyone for their help here. Sebastian is right that I don't have to defend myself here, but I am looking at this discussion as a dress rehearsal for when I talk to the group. The more points I read and respond to here, the more ready I will be for whatever they have to say. Remember, I am bad at in person arguments and debates. Coming to the table as prepared as I can be is going to be my best chance at helping everyone find a solution.
Darksol the Painbringer: I disagree with your perspective on what constitutes lawful stupid. I do not intend on getting into another alignment debate though as it doesn't benefit myself, you, the OP or this thread to do so. I will say that you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make you right. The paladin in question is entitled to his opinion as well, and the DM his. Personally, I see several opportunities for the paladin to have acted more towards his code. The OP looks to agree with me on this having talked about some of these examples himself.
In regards to the whole initiative thing, there was no "meta-gaming" to be had. In a realistic scenario, when the Paladin's character said "I'm going to grapple Cosimo," the Paladin on the "map" would move towards Cosimo, and if Cosimo did not want him to advance so suddenly and (appear as if trying to) grab him, then Cosimo would react; hence, an initiative would take place. That's not meta-gaming at all, and is something that the GM would officiate as to how it would happen in RAW.
The paladin didn't say "I'm going to grapple Cosimo". The player did. Characters do not generally announce their actions as they do them. Fighters aren't generally walking around going, "Power attack!" and Barbarians aren't generally yelling, "Rage Power activate!". At the time that initiative was rolled the paladin had not yet had the opportunity to even begin to attempt to grapple Cosimo yet. Cosimo very much did throw the first punch.
You are also wrong about several things you say in your post. If you read Calebs post you can see these. The scroll was on Cosimo's person, it was hidden. Also, he did steal the scroll from the party as DrDeth pointed out. It wasn't only Cosimo's decision as to what happened to it and the rest of the party had a right to the scroll as much as he did. The paladin was never going to kill Cosimo so never would have been charged with this crime.
It still raises the question; a Paladin isn't just some Auto Anti-Evil slayer, saying he falls because he interacts with characters who interacts with Evil is a bunch of hooey. A Paladin is still just as guilty as the party member who killed (or atleast attempted to kill) Cosimo, especially considering that the character is True Neutral, and innocent. If no Scroll was produced for his reasoning (which even then, is quite negligible), the Paladin would be charged with being an accomplice of an innocent murder (allowing his fellow party members to kill an innocent being), and would most certainly fall for it.
But it is again negligible as to the means, and thus the end is of an equal status.
Semantics aside, the player directs what the character does; of course the character isn't going to say "SMITE EVIL" or "GRAPPLE INITIATING" unless it's some sort of robot (which he isn't), but the player still said what the character was attempting to do. He took the first move in that altercation, and that's that. Unfortunately, saying who started the "fight" doesn't solve anything, so this remains a moot topic.
And no question as to "Why he wanted it so bad" or "What's the point of the Scroll" was asked until the guy was being constantly unconscious and tortured to the brink of death, which is again quite inhumane for a Paladin to do (or even endorse). Once again, the counterpoint wins because since I wasn't there and only have a limited view of the situation (which will never change), arguing this again doesn't solve anything because it won't get anywhere, at any time or place either.
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Dr.Deth, I am going to ask that you stop commenting until we have the other player's side of the story. You have made your points clear, and I thank you for your suggestions, but I don't feel you have the best grasp of what has happened. Maybe we are speaking a different language (figuratively) or maybe I haven't explained things in a way you understand completely.
My friend, you are absolutely right. All I know is what you have posted, plus what your DM has posted, plus a little more via a PM.
But read my profile. I have been gaming longer than you- and by a long shot. Thus, even tho I don't know the exact facts here, I have seen this sort of thing happen time after time. Heck, Caleb, I have been in your shoes when I was much younger- played the same role, etc. So, I may not have the exact facts, but my age and experience should count for something.
I ask you only to think on this, but I will back out of this thread as you ask.
Good bye and Good Luck!
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The paladin didn't say "I'm going to grapple Cosimo". The player did. Characters do not generally announce their actions as they do them. Fighters aren't generally walking around going, "Power attack!" and Barbarians aren't generally yelling, "Rage Power activate!". At the time that initiative was rolled the paladin had not yet had the opportunity to even begin to attempt to grapple Cosimo yet. Cosimo very much did throw the first punch.
I think you're oversimplifying things based on the game mechanic. Despite initiative order all actions occur close-to-simultaneously within a round. This is why the duration of a round in seconds is not dependent on how many participants there are in combat. The paladin might not have said "I'm grabbing him," but his body language would have indicated that intent. The fact that initiative was called clearly establishes that hostile intent was displayed. Initiative is supposed to be a character's speed of response to a situation that has already turned hostile - in this case the speed with which the paladin launches his attack vs the speed at which Cosimo reacts to his pre-attack body language.
IRL, if someone pulls back their arm to throw a punch, and you react quickly enough to put the other person in a headlock before they land the punch, you are still acting in self defence. The paladin's OOC statement of intent to grapple Cosimo serves as pulling back an arm to punch.. Initiative is a speed contest. Cosimo wins initiative and restrains the paladin as non-violently as possible before that punch lands. There's some grey area and interpretation here (useful legal reference), but using a painless, non-damaging takedown on someone who has clearly displayed intent to do you bodily harm is not, in itself, wrong.
If it helps, think of Cosimo's win at initiative as Cosimo readying an action to sleep hex the first person to attempt to attack him, since when you cut through the meta that's clearly what was actually happening.
I havent read all of the comments (frankly theres just a really lot of reading in the thread lol) so i dont know if this is covered but...
PCs hiding things from the rest of the group is REALLY dangerous. especialy if the group suspects somthings amiss. Ive had it happen quite a few times and it more often than not it will blow up similar to that. but just put yourself in their shoes. this guy is doing somthing s*&*y and when we confronted him about it he threatened us and then made a run for it. whatever hes up too MUST be aweful why else would he be willing to fight us over it and not just trust us.
I usually dont let players do stuff like that untill the group is comfortable enough with that player that theyll trust him/her enough to not pry if they catch wind of it. (if that makes sense)
if thats part of the AP then as the DM id tell the group outright that i know what hes upto and that they will have to trust me on it and then throw them an "out" (some way of explaining why they diddnt persue this any further.