Zen archer query

[holymeatpuppet]

how does hammer the gap work with flurry using 17th level for examples, is it +0,+1,+2....etc. or some different math? and if it's weak then what's a good way to tweak flurry?

[Mojorat]

I am a little confused at the question, Isn't hammer the gap normally done with blunt weapons? So not really applicable to Zen Archery. Secondly you can't really change flurry at all that I am aware of.

[holymeatpuppet]

HAMMER THE GAP
You repeatedly strike the same location, causing increasing
amounts of damage.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action, each
consecutive hit against the same opponent deals extra
damage equal to the number of previous consecutive
hits you have made against that opponent this turn. This
damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

???! - nope i don't think it uses blunt exclusively. and i think it would fit well with flurries ridiculous amount of attacks. but i was hoping for a couple opinions on its floatability. float.

[Quatar]

Yes I would say it works normally. Don't see a reason why it shouldn't.

Works thematically quite well with Clustered Shots too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a really bad feat. Even with lots of attacks. You need 3 in a row before it even starts surpassing weapon specialization, and one miss and the whole thing resets to 0.

If they got rid of the word "consecutive" it might be a decent feat for volley archers.

[Mojorat]

Weird, I guess from the name I just assumed. Did not see the conne tion to arrows. I think though archery does enough damage you don't really need the small addition this would add.

[Rycaut]

The value of the feat is that at a high level a zen archer will already have weapon specialization, deadly aim and as high a STR composite bow (likely magical) and will probably be using ki arrows and likely has improved critical. So any further mods to damage are fairly hard to come by. Sure consequetive hits are key but especially at high levels zen archers will hit quite a lot. The thing however to consider is whether at that level the zen archer should consider getting feats like stunning fist or elemental fist as now she can use such effects via her bow (zen archer level 17 ability)

[james maissen]

Rycaut wrote:

The value of the feat is that at a high level a zen archer will already have weapon specialization, deadly aim and as high a STR composite bow (likely magical) and will probably be using ki arrows and likely has improved critical. So any further mods to damage are fairly hard to come by. Sure consequetive hits are key but especially at high levels zen archers will hit quite a lot.

I don't really think it's as good as you'd like to think.

If something is that easy to hit that you are almost never missing, how long does it live anyway?

But it depends on what alternatives you have here.

-James

[Mojorat]

Well the value is if you already do 150 damage on a full attack it doesn't really matter if you do an! Extra 11 damage from 5 hits. The target either just died or has enough hps the extra did not matter.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, if something is that easy to hit, I'd rather just use Deadly Aim. If it's not that easy to hit, then at high levels where my damage per arrow is fairly high, I wouldn't want to use Deadly Aim and this feat would do almost diddly squat, either.

[Rycaut]

Well my point is that the ways to add damage to an archery build are relatively limited - by level 17 a Zen Archer likely already has the easy to get ways:

- Weapon Specialization (gets it as a class bonus at level 6 for free)
- Deadly Aim (nearly all archers should get this and likely use it frequently and often)

- magical composite bow

- perhaps greater bracers of archery (though the cheaper bracers that give you always on aspect of the falcon are quite good)

for the zen archer:

- ki arrows (use monk's unarmed damage instead of regular arrows damage - at level 17 this means 2d8 or 2d10 w/monk's robes) - limited to # of times of your ki pool however and does take a swift action

but that's about it, hammer the gap adds another way to get additional damage and notably it is multiplied on critical hits. Certainly not a feat I would take early with a Zen Archer but it is one that is very viable for a higher level archer - that extra damage can shave a round off, or help take a target down one or two arrows sooner - leaving you attacks to use on other targets.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ki Arrows is also a trap. Using a swift and ki point for an extra arrow is a MUCH better boost to damage than the unarmed damage. Unless you're really not adding much damage per arrow, but you should be.

Gravity Bow is also a thing. If you're using ki arrow, you'd need enlarge person to boost your unarmed damage to counter that advantage. Which would impart a -1 to hit on you.

[Quatar]

Hmm... could a Zen Archer cast Gravity Bow on his bow (assuming he gets it somehow) and use ki arrows at the same time? The 2d10 would turn into 4d8 then.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think they stack. I think you need to use enlarge person to boost ki arrow damage.

And you get Gravity bow by having a wand of gravity bow, Dangerously Curious trait, and maxed UMD ranks. Not practical till higher levels, but ki arrow isn't even surpassing 1d8 till then anyway.

[Rycaut]

At higher levels where your arrows are doing 2d8 or even 2d10 the swift for ki arrows may at times be better than a swift for an extra attack - it is close.

The extra attack is at your full attack bonus so most likely to hit - but will do 1d8 less damage (but likely your damage bonus at that level will be something like:

+5 weapon, +2 specialization, +4 str, +6 deadly aim (or +8 if deadly aim goes up while flurrying this is not entirely settled) for around +17 to each attack.

So average at 1d8 (longbow) would be 22 for that extra attack (using 5 as the average damage on 1d8)

In contrast the ki arrows would likely add ~+5 damage to each successful attack - this would at level 17 be 7 attacks (though the last attack at a base +0 is unlikely to hit) - if all 7 attacks hit ki arrows at 2d8 would add ~ +35 to the damage output. Assuming only 4 attacks (the two attacks at +15 and the two at +10) hit ki arrows at level 17 would add +20 to the attacks, 5 hits would add ~ +25. So it is somewhat of a tossup in many cases but there are other factors to consider:

1) higher damage per arrow may be better if facing an enemy with DR (likely at higher levels, though a +5 bow will also help with most forms of DR)

2) a single crit (more likely at these higher levels since you likely have Improved Critical as it is a Zen Archer available bonus feat) would be stronger with Ki Arrows than with the extra attack.

3) DPR calculations (which I've only done a very very rough estimate of above) don't always reflect what happens at the table - i.e. if you have more damage dice to roll your range of damage output will be different from the average - you may roll high (or low).

In anycase Ki Arrows are a special ability of the Zen Archer and fairly nifty if situational.

[StreamOfTheSky]

DR doesn't matter, the Zen Archer is taking Clustered Shots by the time ki arrow is even worth considering.

And a crit does more damage w/ ki arrow, but you'll be getting more crits w/ the extra attack. And at x3 crit, there's a good chance any additional damage on a given crit will just be excess "overkill" anyway.

[Rycaut]

perhaps but it is still a bit hard to say it is a "trap" since it is just a free feature of the Zen Archer class - not something you have to invest a feat into.

[Lastoth]

I'd say the only class that could even think about drawing benefit from this is a fighter. They're the only ones who have both a high enough attack bonus AND the extra feats to use this dependably, and even then not until after 11th when the archery feats begin to slow down.

[Krodjin]

Get stunning fist instead. I believe ki arrows let you apply stunning and quivering palm. Your WIS will be through the roof by then and the save DC will be decent. You can also consider Ability Focus and perhaps Mantis Style to pump the DC further.

Vital Strike is also good with Ki arrows. Because some of your class features, like Abundant Step are move actions it's quite reasonable to think that there will be times when you want to take a standard action to shoot a vital strike ki arrow with Stunning Fist for 4d8 base damage before abundant stepping to a better position.

Even if the Zen Archer doesn't get all the other conditions available to a Vanilla Monk with Stunning Fist, it's arguable more useful for the Zen Archer as your very likely going to have the highest Wisdom score possible. A melee monk just can't afford to max wisdom.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Zen Archers get to apply stunning fist via their level 17 class feature, Ki Focus Bow. They can likewise attach quivering palm, touch of serenity, etc... at that point.

It comes super late to the party, but it is rather nice combined w/ the fact they can use each of those feats 1/day per monk level.

[Grizzly the Archer]

The zen archer is better typically for getting hammer the gap, because the fighter only would ever get the max amount of hits for him, which would be 6 attacks, which is using rapid shot and haste, many shot wouldn't count, unless ruled otherwise. The zen archer is looking close to 8 or 9 attacks I believe from their flurry. They might hit lower, but they can get buffs from the party, so that wouldn't be an issue. However, the feat itself isn't that good for damage output for archers. The consecutive part makes it nearly unlikeable by archers.

[Vestrial]

I think it's better than you guys are giving credit for, at least for the ZAM. (though perhaps not much) The consecutive thing sounds bad, but the ZAM is getting 3 attacks at his highest attack bonus, which means 3 consecutive hits are fairly common. And when those three do hit he rolls 3d20 on his 4th attack, so 4 in a row will not be a terribly rare occurrence. And as already pointed out, there's literally nothing else for the ZAM to take for damage by that point in his career, so if he's trying to maximize his damage output, it's really a must have.

[StreamOfTheSky]

By high levels a ZAM should be picking up Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, and Punishing Kick n preparation for level 17, where he'll be able to chain each off his bow shots once per round, and will be able to use each one 17 (monk level) times per day.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that sounds a lot better than +5 damage per round or whatever it ends up coming out to.

[Krodjin]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

By high levels a ZAM should be picking up Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, and Punishing Kick n preparation for level 17, where he'll be able to chain each off his bow shots once per round, and will be able to use each one 17 (monk level) times per day.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that sounds a lot better than +5 damage per round or whatever it ends up coming out to.

+1.

If you don't kill your foe outright, Stunning Fist will let the 17th level Rogue finish them off!
It's massive damage by proxy!

[Vestrial]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

By high levels a ZAM should be picking up Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, and Punishing Kick n preparation for level 17, where he'll be able to chain each off his bow shots once per round, and will be able to use each one 17 (monk level) times per day.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that sounds a lot better than +5 damage per round or whatever it ends up coming out to.

First, you can get htg before any of those.

Second, Ki Focus explicitly let's you use Stunning fist, not Touch of Serenity or Punishing Kick. ToS is probably safe to count on as a house rule, but punishing kick would be a stretch.

Third, each of these are 'once per turn.' RAW you can chain them in a turn, but RAI not so much. You already require GM intervention to even use two of them with your bow, they are likely going to veto the machinegun cc approach. Not to mention its cheesy as all hell.

Fourth, most people play an archer to do damage, not to invest 3 feats and 17 levels to being a halfassed CCer. Let the wizard do his job, you do yours.

[Rycaut]

Ki Focus is a big deal. At level 17 it means that a zen archer's arrows are treated as if they are adamantine for purposes of DR. (Ki strike assuming the archer has at least one point left in her ki pool) and it allows ANY ki based special attack that would be an unarmed strike to be delivered via arrows - this includes a lot more feats than just Stunning Fist as options for the Zen Archer to take and use (but note that a zen archer doesn't get the normal monk special effects for stunning fist other than the monk levels times per day since that is part of the feat not the monk ability the zen archer archetype doesn't get.

At a minimum ki strike is an argument against zen archers getting clustered shot. But it also does suggest that zen archers look at taking ki attack abilities at higher levels in preparation for level 17.