Can a witch make do with this?


Advice


Just a quick question as I'm considering making a sociable witch over a wizard. I know... for shame. Anyways here it is.

At level 1, with an 18 Int, could a witch get by enjoyably with just the Slumber Hex and the Evil Eye Hex? One of course is gotten from the Extra Hex feat and I'm considering using both feat slots (playing a human) on Extra Hex so that I could have Slumber, Cackle and Evil Eye at level 1.

Currently I have my feats as Extra Hex (Slumber) and the Cosmopolitan feat as I hate being sucky at perception and sense motive but I am tempted in going duo Extra Hex and suffering through the low Perception and Sense Motive bonuses.

What do you think? Double Extra Hex or just one Extra Hex and another feat you prefer?

Side Question (Not all that important): What are languages that you prefer to have when possible? Abyssal? Treant? Elvish?

Thanks.

Silver Crusade

The problem with Slumber at level one is that you need someone there immediately to deliver a coup de grace attack. I'd honestly go with Slumber and Cackle or Evil Eye and Cackle over Slumber and Evil Eye.


Elamdri: Slumber and cackle does nothing for each other.

OP: Yes you can get by with it, slumber is not as powerfull in lvl 1 as lvl2 and beyond, but it is still good. I'd consider evil eye + cackle if I only picked 2.


Go double extra hexes. At low to mid levels, hexes are far more powerful than feats. Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle and Slumber are all awesome. Pick 3 of these 4.


I suppose I could wait until 3rd level to pick up Cosmopolitan later on. I do get Alertness while my familiar is around (if I remember right).


I'm playing a Witch 12 Spherewalker 1 at the moment and I've only ever taken something other than Extra Hex twice. Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune and Slumber are definitely hexes you should get as early on as possible. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any feat at that level that can possibly even compare to those hexes.

What's your base wis score, by the way? As a half-elf witch, I've never found a problem with my perception bonus, no matter which level (it's currently standing at +35 with buffs). You do get Alertness if your familiar's at arm's length(and really, it should always be close to you anyways), Perceive Cues is a level 2 spell on the witch list that gives +5 to sense motive/perception, not to mention that you'll get heroism/greater heroism further down the road which is another +2/+4. On top of that, the crone form of Threefold Aspect(level 4) grants a +4 enchancement bonus to wisdom.

As a witch, you really shouldn't be too worried about having a low perception, especially when you're going Cosmopolitan and (I assume) turning perception into a class skill. :)


My (current intended) stats are as follows:

STR: 10
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 18 (With Human +2 Racial Bonus)
WIS: 10
CHA: 13

The CHA is up because I intend to be sociable outside of battle and I'm using the traits Honeyed Words and Fast Talker to get Diplomacy and Bluff as class skills.

I think based on response, that I will take double Extra Hex at first level and pick up Cosmopolitan at 3rd level.

The familiar I'm choosing is the green sting scorpion if it helps anything.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone.


if you plan to take thoughness at some point, I would take it instead of slumber.

As others noted, slumber isn't that strong at the beginning.
And my personal reason is that slumber makes GMs hate you, it's an unlimited save or die ability. If you know the group and know that the GM can handle it and that it doesn't make the group feel useless (and that you never want to take thoughness), then I would recommend sleep as third hex at first level.

But Cackle and Evil eye would still be my first choice.

There is quite a good Witch guide by VikingIrishman or some name like that.

If you are 100% sure you want to take slumber, you might even want to consider to take improved initiative early on, altough that would mean that you get Evil Eye/Cackle far too late.


Slumber is fine at level 1, you just need to wait for someone to be in melee with the target to use it. Even past level 1, you'll want to do that if there's any more than 1 enemy. So whatever.

I'm not terribly impressed by evil eye, but it certaily is better than misfortune or fortune w/o cackle.

You should be fine. Biggest issue is that both are mind-affecting. If you're gonna put all your eggs in one basket like that (not that you have much of a choice for the early hexes; misfortune is the only decent offensive one that's *not*), I'd probably just get Slumber and either Accursed Hex or Ability Focus (Slumber). I mean, the way you have it now, you may as well hit them w/ slumber first and if they resist, go for the evil eye, right? So it's better to just have accursed hex and get 2 tries w/ slumber, I'd say.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
I'd probably just get Slumber and either Accursed Hex or Ability Focus (Slumber). I mean, the way you have it now, you may as well hit them w/ slumber first and if they resist, go for the evil eye, right? So it's better to just have accursed hex and get 2 tries w/ slumber, I'd say.

I totally agree with this as another strong starting alternative to double extra hexes. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the ability focus(slumber) with Accursed Hex is almost broken once you have all 3 parts of this combination.


The sucky thing about witches is that your save DCs for hexes will never be great. Hexes are for the most part save-or-lose spells that will mostly lose, which means you have a good shot at doing nothing that round. Evil eye and Cackle is the only sure fire success. Get that first, then get misfortune.

You have until level 9 to get all of your hexes, so count up the number of hexes you need by that point, then see how many feats you have leftover in your build. The viable ones, IMO, are:

Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Slumber
Flight
Healing
Charm
Tongues
Fortune

Then ask yourself, which feats would be better than any single one of those? The answer will probably be not many. Accursed Hex, Toughness, Improved Familiar, Dazing Spell are some of the better options. I definitely wouldn't make room for a silly little bonus to skills like that when you have so many powerful hexes to choose from.


By the way, double check with your GM if you can take Ability Focus as a player character. As far as I know, it's a monster feat, and one I certainly wouldn't allow in my games as a GM.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

RAW, there is nothing preventing a PC from taking feats from the Bestiary.

To disallow, is a houserule.


davidernst11 wrote:

The sucky thing about witches is that your save DCs for hexes will never be great. Hexes are for the most part save-or-lose spells that will mostly lose, which means you have a good shot at doing nothing that round. Evil eye and Cackle is the only sure fire success. Get that first, then get misfortune.

You have until level 9 to get all of your hexes, so count up the number of hexes you need by that point, then see how many feats you have leftover in your build. The viable ones, IMO, are:

Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Slumber
Flight
Healing
Charm
Tongues
Fortune

Then ask yourself, which feats would be better than any single one of those? The answer will probably be not many. Accursed Hex, Toughness, Improved Familiar, Dazing Spell are some of the better options. I definitely wouldn't make room for a silly little bonus to skills like that when you have so many powerful hexes to choose from.

The hair hex is pretty darn useful too.


Slumber and Misfortune are the big two hexes. Slumber is for normal foes and Misfortune is for mindless foes. Add cackle at level 2 and you would be set.

A slumber witch is nasty at any level. Even at level 1, slumber is still very good. Even if you put a melee foe to sleep outside of melee, you still stole their next round, as they need to stand and move. It's something akin to the Daze cantrip, which is also good at level 1. If you get the Accursed Hex feat, sleep is even better for those fights with just one or two enemies. Even without Accursed Hex, sleep+daze gives you 2 rounds of actions that steal the enemy's rounds.

I've never been impressed with Evil Eye, as it affects the same foes as the slumber hex and removes your mobility due to cackling all the time. After level 8, it could be more useful because -4 is a lot better than -2. However, at level 8 you have a ton of spells that could be used better. Hell, a quickened ill-omen comes online around then, both with and without a metamagic rod, which virtually ensures slumber to land. If evil eye effected mindless foes, I'd be a lot more impressed with it.

Truthfully, if you maxed int and your DM is saving versus your hexes all the time, they probably either are getting lucky or are adding to their saves. In most PFS mods I've played through level 5, enemies save around 25% of the time, and I don't have ability focus. I mean a normal level 4 rogue or fighter, which are the normal enemies at low levels should have +1 or +2 to their will save versus 15 to 17 dcs.

I once ran into a CR 12 with my level 2 witch in a PFS mod. It was supposed to be a stage prop, but I later found out I had a 25% chance of slumbering it without evil eye.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

RAW, there is nothing preventing a PC from taking feats from the Bestiary.

To disallow, is a houserule.

I don't know if this is for PFS, but PFS doesn't allow feats from the Beastiary


For those saying Slumber is no good at 1st level: are you assuming that the fighter would need to CdG a sleeping mob to kill it?

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:

RAW, there is nothing preventing a PC from taking feats from the Bestiary.

To disallow, is a houserule.

Yuo keep saying that but you are incorrect.

Ability focus has the following pre-req

Ability Focus wrote:


One of this creature's special attacks is particularly difficult to resist.

Prerequisite: Special attack.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

Nothing in the hex ability ever refers to it as a special attack (it's not even a normal attack since there is no attack roll).

It is not legal to take ability focus: hex.

Silver Crusade

Erikkerik wrote:
Elamdri: Slumber and cackle does nothing for each other.

Ah, yes, you're right. Thanks for catching that.


Manimal wrote:
For those saying Slumber is no good at 1st level: are you assuming that the fighter would need to CdG a sleeping mob to kill it?

Once you hit level 2, you can CdG Slumbered things yourself. If you pick prehensile hair at 3, a 20 int witch will be doing 2d3+14 damage. This makes it a 26-30 fort save. Good luck surviving that.

I have this happen a lot in PFS, as the fighters tend to ignore sleeping enemies to get the still active ones. I generally get 2-4 kills per PFS scenario this way. As a result, I took to flailing around the severed heads with my hair like some undead hydra.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Yuo keep saying that but you are incorrect.

Ability focus has the following pre-req

Ability Focus wrote:


One of this creature's special attacks is particularly difficult to resist.

Prerequisite: Special attack.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

Nothing in the hex ability ever refers to it as a special attack (it's not even a normal attack since there is no attack roll).

It is not legal to take ability focus: hex.

It may not call it out, but it is clearly a special attack. Any "attack" (in the invisibility sense of an aggressive action, not necessarily vs. AC and hp) that is a Su, Ex, or Sp ability is a "special attack" since those abilities are defined as special abilities.

Quote:

Special Abilities

The following special abilities include rules commonly used by a number of creatures, spells, and traps.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.


A lot of great advice everyone, thanks. I will most definitely ask my GM about the Ability Focus and see if he's alright with me using it.

From what I'm reading I could spare to wait on Slumber until second, and possibly go double hex picking up cackle and misfortune while getting evil eye as the normal hex. It's just I always thought Slumber to be the go-to hex when it came to a melee fighter trying to get to you (that doesn't have immunity to sleep.)

I'm actually half tempted to be the "luck" of the party and take fortune and misfortune with cackle early, but I do like me some Evil Eye.

Things to think over.

Thanks again.

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