I think that it's somewhat fair, because it's also likely that you'll burn through mythic points a lot faster at higher levels, especially when fighting against foes of appropriate challenge. Things like Amazing Initiative and Force of Will are probably going to be used very often, if not every round - not to mention casters that might use extra mythic points to power their spells.
Since I'm a little bit short of time at the moment, I just took one of the pre-made high level vampire fighters in one of the APs and slapped on him either champion 9 or MR9, as well as upgrading him to PC wealth, and then threw him into a 1-on-1 with the tarrasque, treerazer and Achaekek. His final CR ended up being 19 + 9 = 28, which makes the Achaekek a beyond epic encounter.
Mythic vampire 9 ordinary fighter:
His survivability is also a lot better considering that he gets double the amount of bonus HP from the mythic subtype than the champion tier. However, the successive -5 penalty to his attack rolls really start to hurt against mythic opponents with ACs over the 40s. He can somewhat manage with his first 2 attacks, but after the -10 penalty kicks in, I need to roll closer to 20 to even scratch the three critters' ACs. This is made a lot more doable with his +1d10 to d20s, but doing this persistently means that he burns through his 9 uses of his mythic power incredibly fast. This, coupled with the fact that all three of them had regeneration/DRepic meant there were a few rounds when nothing really happened in battle as both parties failed to hit/otherwise do long-lasting damage.
Normal vampire champion 9:
On Achaekak, he's still dealing crap loads of damage, but the simply fact that Achaekak can hit him more means that he'll likely die before he can drop that 800 HP monster to 0, especially considering the mantis god's regen and DR20. He still managed to whittle more than half of it down before he was another full attack away from gaseous form, which I find to be quite impressive.
Overall, it seems like normal vampire with champion tiers are somewhat more glass cannon-y at higher levels, when the lack of that natural armor adjustment starts to really hurt. But they're definitely DPR beasts - and this vampire I used for testing isn't even a really optimized fighter build. I'm sure munchkins will probably be able to make a build that can take down Achaekak in 2 rounds.
Precision is one of the best abilities at late levels, when you're dealing with the AC of mythic creatures. The fact that it's a constant ability that doesn't require mythic powers is just the topping on the cake. Sudden Attack's ability to bypass DR and roll twice is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to crit on that one - which, with your ability to reroll one d20 per round and a high crit range, probably won't be that hard.
These short playtest encounters are all revolved around pure combat though, and I look forward to exploring some other differences between a mythic vampire and a normal vampire mythic champion. I'll also look to putting him in situations where his channel immunity and DR10/epic actually comes into play...
Edit: Ack, forgot the fact that I gave him mythic dodge and that he can get a +10 dodge bonus on his AC by using a mythic power. >_>
Rats Archive wrote:
Being able to jump 60feet and upwards is more of what I expected from this path ability, but as you've resourcefully shown, the requirements(a number of feats that could've probably been put to better use, all ability bonuses being assigned to dex, a specific class that gives bonuses to jump etc.) are somewhat disproportionate when seen in this context.
Imagining this monk whose only purpose in life is to jump charging across a 235 foot chasm is quite epic, but I digress.
Definitely interested. I'd like to offer my (potential) half-elf universalist 20/archmage 10 to participate in this playtest. I drew up her character sheet at 20/10 yesterday, so it'd be pretty easy for me to dump her back down to level 2 and follow progression from there. I plan to take roughly one archmage per 2 wizard levels, conforming to the more 'traditional' combination as a control group of sorts, haha.
Question, how many levels are we expected to be at by the end of this boss rush? I've only ever read the original RotR.
Maybe make it an extra 10ft jumped per mythic tier (clarify that this bonus can exceed your movement speed). If that's too much, drop it to ~5ft per tier rather than a bonus to acrobatics check.
Extent of bonuses aside, I applaud this suggestion for the very fact that it removes the need for calculating high jump DCs and determining how much you jumped each time. (I had to pull out a calculator when I made the post)
Same. It seems like a lot of the mythic vampire vs mythic tier decision is going to depend on the base class of the vampire - Tom the vampire fighter might really appreciate On Dark Wings and Energy Bleed, but Bob the vampire wizard probably won't have get as much use out of those two abilities when he has overland flight and a good enough attack roll to hit a commoner but not much else.
Channel immunity, DR/epic and overcome weakness would still be a great boon for both. I might end up trying to test this on a bunch of PCs who've been contemplating a raid on an ancient vampire underground.
Out of all the champion abilities, Aerial Assault has to be my absolute favorite in terms of flavor. A character jumping impossibly high to take down a smug wizard gloating 50 feet above the ground, introducing said wizard's face to the gravel - that's certainly something only mythic characters can do.
However, the core rulebook has laid down the DCs for high jumps as roughly the amount of feet you want to jump x 4. A champion 10 gets a 100 circumstance bonus to his acrobatics modifier, and even if we assume his base acrobatics modifier to be a generous +30, that still puts his average roll at 1d20 + 130 = roughly 140. That's 35 feet on average, which translates to about 3d6 extra damage to your attack, or 1d6~2d6 damage to opponents you drag down from the air. At mythic tier 10, when characters are practically demigods, both this extra damage and jump height seems rather non-sequential, especially since it requires one use of your mythic power.
Of course, being able to cover 140feet in horizontal distance is pretty mythical, but I don't think that's quite the point of this ability. :)
It sounds more like an 'either or' rather than an overlap. You either get the perks of being a mythic vampire or you get the perks of being a mythic character, but not both.
And yes, the template is probably one of my favorite parts in the document, even in flavor alone. :)
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Immortal: Where do you reappear when you return? If my body can be reduced to ash and then my remains are dumped into the ocean, where do you end up? Usually baseline resurrection effects say something like, “1 mile from where you died” or the like. Also, this ability references, “mythic damage” but that term is not defined in the glossary in the front of the document.
Mythic Damage is defined in that little box on page 35, although a small blurb in the glossary would've been nice too.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mythic Spells: Do you need to prepare the spell or merely have it in your spellbook in order to cast it? Does casting a mythic spell expend a prepared spell or spell slots?
Since the wording under the archmage section says 'spend your mythic power to cast that spell with enhanced results', I assume that you'll need to prepare that spell in the first place to 'enhance' it with your mythic power. The wording in the mythic spells chapter also supports this, 'The following spells have an enhanced effect if the caster expends one use of mythic power at the time of casting.'
To me, it seems like you're not really casting a 'mythic spell', you're casting one of the spells you prepared normally but enhancing it at the time of casting so that it becomes mythic. The spell slot is consumed as normal, presumably, unless you use other mythic abilities that save you from expending a spell slot.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I see, thank you for the answer!
I can understand how choosing to keep ranks and tiers separate could avoid a whole lot of mess in the future, but it does bring up the interesting question of how different a mythic vampire fighter 15 and a normal vampire fighter 15 with some champion tiers can be - both on a mechanics level and a story level - and which one to choose when designing encounters.
Time to gather up some players, it seems.
First off, I'll say that I absolutely love some of the abilities that mythic vampires get as part of their template, and am already looking for possible critters to apply to the template to. However, I have a question regarding how to apply the template to a vampire who already has mythic tiers.
Let's say we have Tom, the human vampire fighter 15/champion 6. On a beautiful and not so sunny day, he comes across a powerful artifact that transforms him into a mythic vampire. In this case, Tom is technically CR17(assuming PC gear), but with 6 mythic tiers. How does this factor into calculating his total CR for the purposes of determining which abilities he gets from table 6-1? For argument's sake, let's say we assume it's still CR17 and assign him MR8 according to the table. Tom gets all the nice mythic vampire abilities till overcome weakness(invitation). Cool.
But because Tom has a mythic rank, I assume that puts him into the mythic subtype as well. The mythic subtype and mythic tiers offer many of the same bonuses, such as bonus HP and increases to ability scores. How do the bonuses from these two sources interact/stack/not stack? For example, Tom gets 5 bonus HP per champion tier, but also 10 bonus HP per MR. Similarly, Tom gets his champion tier(6) + probably str modifier in mythic power, but the mythic subtype dictates that Tom also gets 8 uses of his mythic power per day due to his MR. How are MR and mythic tiers intended do work together in cases like these? Are they meant to?
You think that's a lot? My party in CC consists of a witch, bard, wizard and sorcerer. :)
Suffice to say we never had a problem making any knowledge checks. However, the DM does roll randomly for each individual that made the knowledge check to see what kind of information they get, and sometimes there will be overlaps. Sometimes me and the wizard can both beat the DC by 20 or more and just be unfortunate enough to not get that one piece of information.
Are the appraise rolls made in the open? As for appraise, to my understanding the appraise rolls are to be made in secret by the DM, who adds each individual's skill modifier to it. The final results of the roll are never revealed, the DM just tells us what each character thinks an item's worth.
One perk for finishing off a Tarrasque (aside from insane experience gains) is that you get to look like a badass tearing the skeleton out of a massive creature.
Creatures with more than 20HD cannot be made into skeletons via animate dead.
Interestingly enough, the same doesn't seem to apply to zombies, going by RAW.
I'm playing a Witch 12 Spherewalker 1 at the moment and I've only ever taken something other than Extra Hex twice. Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune and Slumber are definitely hexes you should get as early on as possible. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any feat at that level that can possibly even compare to those hexes.
What's your base wis score, by the way? As a half-elf witch, I've never found a problem with my perception bonus, no matter which level (it's currently standing at +35 with buffs). You do get Alertness if your familiar's at arm's length(and really, it should always be close to you anyways), Perceive Cues is a level 2 spell on the witch list that gives +5 to sense motive/perception, not to mention that you'll get heroism/greater heroism further down the road which is another +2/+4. On top of that, the crone form of Threefold Aspect(level 4) grants a +4 enchancement bonus to wisdom.
As a witch, you really shouldn't be too worried about having a low perception, especially when you're going Cosmopolitan and (I assume) turning perception into a class skill. :)
Ice Tomb and Slumber do target different saves, and that's always a good thing, considering that the witch class's save or suck is heavily based on will saves. I'd go for Slumber over Ice Tomb when I want to neutralize a giant, and vice versa if I want to keep that pesky wizard from raining fireballs down the battlefield. :)
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
It's worded as 'at 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell'. Flying, as described in the fly spell, is a move action. The hex didn't imply that the witch was using a standard action to cast/activate the fly spell, and that's how my DM and I decided to rule it.
Slumber is especially useful in your party because you have two melees that can coup de grace the enemy quite easily, and Jade Regent doesn't seem like a campaign filled to the brim with undead, unlike Carrion Crown. Even outside of combat, it's quite useful if you want to neutralize someone (say, a trouble-causing commoner or a guard doing his job that you need to sneak past) without resorting to lethal blows. This will probably cover a part of the 'lack of subtlety' you mentioned.
Even if the enemies make their saves, they still get affected by the hex, which can be then maintained indefinitely with cackle. At 8th level the penalty doubles, and with Split Hex the action economy eases up too. Unless my party is fighting a large group of monsters, it's practically always my first choice in battle.
It does get a little less useful at high levels(though my perception is skewed considering the campaign my witch in sees progressively more undead), but I would nonetheless consider it a staple hex for witches.
Otherwise, Flight is also an incredibly useful hex considering that it allows you to split up your flight time, effectively allowing you to fly for as many encounters as you have levels (unless Jade Regent regularly has encounters that go over 10 rounds), and doesn't require a standard action to activate.
Healing hex is also an option, as your party does not seem to have a dedicated healer. I play in an all-arcane caster party (me, wizard, sorcerer, bard...), and there hasn't been a single day when I didn't exhaust my healing hex on all party members.
Slumber needs to be mentioned too. At low levels it is essentially an encounter-ender against anything that's not immune to sleep effects. At higher levels it is still deadly against anything with a low will save (and even if they don't, you can always force them to with that -4 from Evil Eye). Some DMs might have problems with this hex though, as they tend to overestimate the power of it and overlook its drawbacks(only works against single/two targets, victim just needs an ally to spend a standard to wake him up).