As far as I recall.. in 3.5, there was a rule, that states that a creature can overcome it's own damage reduction. I can't really tell, if it's still the case in Pathfinder.
I get that a creature with x/magic has natual attacks that can overcome x/magic (according to the bestiary)
But what about subtypes ?!?
Example:
2 vampires going at it. They both have 10/silver and magic. Do their natural attacks overcome the others vampires damage reduction ?!? they both hit for 1d4+4 + energy drain, but are immune to energy drain.
If they do not.. they can bash at each other until the world ends..
War/fights between one's own species for power/wealth/food/mates are rather common.. seems kinda stupid if you can't hurt your opponent..
I get that one of the vampires can get more crits, but they have fast healing soooo -> until the world ends :S
Pretty sure the answer is no.
So your two vampires if they're serious about it would need to use magic silver weapons. Or just use any weapons in the first place, nothing stops them from doing that.
Also Strenght bonus, power attack etc, two-handing weapons etc all helps to break through the DR 10.
Well they could.. but then they won't have the stats from the bestiary, but be GM improved.. and then anything is possible..
In RAW you find the answer for damage reduction magic and alignment.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
For DR/special materials there is no rule but i would rule it in the same way as DR/magic and DR/alignment. I think i was intended in this way by the developers. Two vampires fighting without end sound really silly ..
Actually the alignment rule doesn't help like you think.
They usually have a DR to the opposite alignment. Demons have DR/good. Angels DR/evil.
A demon's natural weapons may count as magic and evil, but that doesn't help overcome the DR/good of other demons.
To do that they'd have to count as good weapons as well. And you see how that would be extremely silly.
So, I don't really see why a vampires natural weapons should count as silver.
A vampire that wants to hurt another vampire will not use its natural weapons, period.
Humanoid creatures (and vampires are augmented human undead) will and are able to use weapons. That's not GM fiat or cheating or anything.
A vampire that wants to hurt another vampire will not use its natural weapons, period.
Sorry mate.. that makes absolutely no sense.. in a werewolf tribe throwdown, the werewolfs doesn't pause the fight, to go fetch their silver swords..
For DR/special materials there is no rule but i would rule it in the same way... I think i was intended in this way by the developers.
Agree
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Well you don't have to believe it, but that's the rules.
yeah, we have pondered this point for ages. Sometimes its best not to think too hard about somethings as they make your head explode
they are some fight combos that would never end. this is something a party can often exploit....esp if they can be summoned.....probably why you cant summon shadows and such as they would finish dragons of quite quickly
I'm sorry.. i'm not trying to be stubborn or anything.
I get you don't think it does by RAW. My point is that, there's nothing written about subtype (material), everything else is stated perfectly, so I have to fall back to previous rules (3.5) and realism.
I'd just like to see what the consensus was on the subject.
If you want to houserule that in your game thats absolutely your right to do.
But to say "nothing is written about it, so I use the 3.5 rules, and that is RAW" is wrong. It was most likely deliberately omitted.
Or do you actually want to imply that the claws of demons are good-aligned weapons?
Even in 3.5e there wasn't a rule that a creature could overcome its own damage reduction type. That was only if it had DR/magic its attacks also counted as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. (In later Monster Manuals this was listed specifically as Magic Strike (Ex or Su) but any creature with DR/magic had it.)
In 3.5e (Champions of Valor, I believe), there was a feat qualifying creatures could take, called Silver Fang, that allowed their natural attacks to count as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction, and it also made lycanthropes that took the feat no longer transmit lycanthropy with their bites.
A vampire in Pathfinder (or 3.5e) would need a +1 silver weapon to overcome another vampire's damage reduction. Yes, that means they could just fight each other forever without weapons. But really, even if they have +1 silver weapons they could just fight each other indefinitely unless they also have stakes and other accoutrements to deal with one another once reduced to 0 hp and at rest in their coffins.
Ok..
As i said, i SEEMED to recall a rule/faq/statement regarding overcoming your own damage reduction, can't remember where or when.
Here's how i see it:
The only thing that can cut a diamond, is another diamond
Hence:
If it requires a adamantine (+4) weapon to hurt a stone golem, when the golem strikes back, you would be hit with same the force/power (+4)
Everything is converted to the magic "pluses" now, a +5 pretty much takes care of everything, even alignment.
The bestiary says:
x/magic (+1 or +2) hits as magic (+1 or +2)
x/epic magic (+6) hits as epic magic (+6)(that's +1 to +6 hence everything)
x/alignment hits as own allignemt (still think it's stupid in a deamon vs devil war, that they have truble hurting each other)
so why does (+4) not hit as (+4)?
EVERY other creature aspect counts in DR. The x/material is the only circumstance not mentioned in the text, regarding to the "hits as".
Sorry mate.. that makes absolutely no sense.. in a werewolf tribe throwdown, the werewolfs doesn't pause the fight, to go fetch their silver swords..Why not? Pathfinder would not be the first game that has that exact situation.
War/fights between one's own species for power/wealth/food/mates are rather common.. seems kinda stupid if you can't hurt your opponent..
They are not a natural species, there is nothing wrong with their "war" being more complex than "hit with fist".
Second, if they have a beef with another vampire, they get smart and start making life miserable for their foe by attacking the other's power/wealth/food/mates. Sundering possessions, or disarming a durable item. After the scuffle, fleeing overland may let the smarter of the two judge who sleeps near what area since both have to be home by sunup. If their belligerence continues, the vampire who gets outsmarted will find their coffin smashed or valuables looted. In a more urban area the other vampire may make a huge spectacle ensuring Vampire Hunters descend on the rival's territory
A stone golem has DR10/adamantine and this has nothing to do with magic weapons. A +4 magic weapon breaks DR/adamantine but an adamantine weapons is not a +4 weapon. It is only a special property of a +4 weapon to count as a adamantine weapon.
Vice versa a golem breaks DR/adamantine but DR/silver and magic are still effective because is counts as adamantine weapon and not as a +4 weapon who breaks DR/adamantine.
Everything is converted to the magic "pluses" now, a +5 pretty much takes care of everything, even alignment.
Nothing is converted to pluses ..
Sigh..
The +4 was a in regarding to the adamantine quality, not the magic.
The converted to pluses is in regarding to RAW, converted might be the wrong word, but english is not my main language.. so give me a brake.. you know what i mean.
Again.. as a GM i COULD give the stone golem some adamantine knuckles, problem solved. but I shouldent HAVE to.. again:
why does adamantine not hit as adamantine ?
All you guys are saying, is that they just have to gear up so solve the problem. I'm saying if 2 alike, pur as hell, creatures stuble upon eachother in a dark ally and get into a fight, it's not making any sense in my book, that they can't/have truble, hurting eachother.
As Eridan wrote:
For DR/special materials there is no rule but i would rule it in the same way... I think i was intended in this way by the developers.
And I think that the:
x/magic (+1 or +2) hits as magic (+1 or +2)
x/epic magic (+6) hits as epic magic (+6)(hence everything)
x/alignment hits as own allignemt
confirmes it. Well that's my 2 cents worth.. seems I'm almost alone on thes one.
EDIT:
Sorry Eridan diden't read your post correct. I agree with your:
Vice versa a golem breaks DR/adamantine but DR/silver and magic are still effective because is counts as adamantine weapon and not as a +4 weapon who breaks DR/adamantine.
Why should that make no sense?
You seem to be under the impression that DR/silver means a special resistance to other vampire claws.
That's not the case. They're just tough. Don't bruise easy. Don't bleed easy.
In game terms, yes, that means a special resistance, but not just to other vampires, but to everything. Fire, magic, cold, acid, slashing, bashing etc. But really from a non-game mechanic perspective its nothing special about them, because it applies to pretty much everything.
The rules were made with normal mortals in mind, so the damage threshold and everything simulates them. So all the DR does is raise the baseline compared to them.
But there is one thing (silver) in this case that really hurts them, which they're vulnerable to.
The same thing with demons. They're tough. They can rip into each other and not hurt as bad as they should. But if they're faced with their opposite (angels), those really really hurt them.
Maybe the reason werewolves resolve their conflicts with violence so often is because they know that they can't seriously hurt one another?
DR 10 can be overcome. Check the build threads here on the forum, level 1 fighter or barbarians that dish out 1d12+10 or +15 damage isn't so hard. Sure getting DR 10 on that hurts, but most of those critters aren't level 1. DR 10 is really just a mild annoyance to them, and far from immunity to each other's attacks.
If you insist on using the mook-level vampires from the bestiary and refuse to give them proper weapons, yes well, don't blame the game for the results.
Also everything converted to pluses is wrong.
An adamantine sword is not a +4 sword.
A +4 sword counts as adamantine for damage reduction, but that's different.
A chicken is a bird. Not all birds are chicken. Same thing here.
Ok Quatar.. here's one last try..
I GET that you have the opinion, that damage reduction is an added toughness, that works agains everything BUT the written damagetype.
WHY can't you see, that my point is, that they HAVE TO HIT with exactly that kind of damage, when EVERY other example in RAW says the same?
No race in the recorded history, is unable to hurt a creature of the same type with a bite, slam og stinger. Imagine a lion not able to hurt another lion for the alpha spot.
Vulnerable in Pathfinder means DOUBLE damage.. so vampires are not vulnerable vs silver, as silver does not double damage. Silver just negates the damage reduction like "Light" negates "Darkness" and virsa versa.
If I still can't get my point across..then i give up trying to get through.
You do realise that any race in recorded history was not magical or extra-planar or undead, right?
Also your examples are wrong.
DR/alignment does not grant weapons that alignment. If a creature has an alignment subtype, their weapons get that alignment, thats a completely different thing. And usually evil creatures have DR/good (but not all of them do). And lawful creatures have DR/chaotic. So pretty much the exact opposite of what you try to say.
However there are other ways to gain DR/evil or DR/good than being of an alignment subtype. And in that case, your natural weapons are not evil or good or anything, unless another rule makes them so. As I said, chicken and birds.
The ONLY two instance in the rules were DR has anything to do with the creature's natural weapons is DR/magic and DR/epic. No other instance works like you say. And DR/epic seems like just a much stronger DR/magic (requiring a +6 instead of a +1), so if you can really call them two seperate instances I'm not even sure.
There is no rule anywhere that DR/special material imparts that very special material onto the natural weapons.
I wrote TWICE that alignment hits as alignment.. if your alignment is lawfull, you hit as lawfull.
I never wrote that if your alignment is lawfull, and have x/chaotic that you hit as chaotic. I know you hit as lawfull.
Hence my statement that:
(as RAW)
Lawfull hits as lawfull
Chaotic hits as chaotic
Evil hits as evil
Good hits as good
Magic hits as magic
Epic magic hits as epic magic
(following same train of thought)
Silver hits as silver
adamantine hits as adamantine
Cold iron hits as cold iron
And epic weapon (+6) negates all above
And yes chaotic evil deamon hits as chaotic evil, and can't overcome another deamons DR as it's x/good..
My point is that it should read x/good or another deamon
First it's not alignment that's important but alignment subtype. (A NG human fighter does not hit as a good-aligned weapon with his fists) But lets assume you meant that.
You try to argue that DR/silver hits as silver.
You quote DR/magic and DR/epic. Which I agree is there, but that's the only exception.
And the alignment rule, which is something completely different. Because it refers to their subtype and not the DR of the creature.
If the vampire was of the silver subtype or made out of silver, than he would hit as silver, but DR and subtype are completely different things.
As RAW:
Creatures with DR/magic hit as if their natural weapons were magic for purpose of overcoming DR (nothing else, they don't actually get the +1)
Creatures with DR/epic hit as if their natural weapons were epic for purpose of overcoming DR (nothing else, they don't actually get the +6)
Creatures with the good subtype hit with their natural weapons as good-aligned.
Creatures with the evil subtype hit with their natural weapons as evil-aligned.
Creatures with the lawful subtype hit with their natural weapons as lawful-aligned.
Creatures with the chaotic subtype hit with their natural weapons as chaotic-aligned.
Creatures with DR/silver do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are silver. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Creatures with DR/adamantine do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are adamantine. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Creatures with DR/cold iron do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are cold iron. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Creatures with DR/silver do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are silver. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Creatures with DR/adamantine do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are adamantine. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Creatures with DR/cold iron do NOT hit as if their natural weapons are cold iron. (unless otherwise stated on a specific creature)
Source ?!? your are interpertating lack of content/text one way, I am another. I refer to other rules mentioned as RAW, and the fact that if you want to hit a 400 pound guy, you should expect the 400 pounds to hit you back.(well i know it's not gonna be a 400 pound hit.. metaphor)
You refer to the material being absent in the race decription and hence not possible to hit as that type.
But what is true in the absense of content/text? I'd like to hear what other people think.. as we apparently agree to disagree
WHY can't you see, that my point is, that they HAVE TO HIT with exactly that kind of damage, when EVERY other example in RAW says the same?
Magic and Epic are the only DR that function in the way you think all DR operates by.
Having these DRs do not let you bypass them.
Silver
Cold forged iron
Admantine
Slashing
Piercing
Bludgeoning
Lawful
Chaotic
Good
Evil
—
D20 Type rules don't operate by logic, just the text that is written. A+B=C does not also mean C-B=A.
Just because a magically animated clay statue has DR overcome by adamantine, that does not mean the magically animated clay statue damages objects as though it were adamantine. Only if the Statue's written rules explicitly say it overcomes DR/Adamatine does it overcome DR/Adamanine
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Why even make a topic in Rules Questions if you're going to respond to people posting the actual rules by shouting over them?
Maybe just the rules need to be posted...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#damage-reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/universalMonsterRules .html#damage-reduction-(ex-or-su)
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon, such as “cold iron or magic.” A weapon that inflicts damage of either of these types overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction (such as “magic and silver”), and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
Format: DR 5/silver; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Source ?!? your are interpertating lack of content/text one way, I am another.
No need to post the full rules text; it's not going to make a difference here. Apparently the actual text of the rules don't matter because True Strike sees the absence of a clause explicitly stating that DR/silver does not have a special exemption from the normal rules as an opportunity to suggest that such a special exemption secretly does exist and was just left unwritten for some inscrutable reason.
I refer to other rules mentioned as RAW, and the fact that if you want to hit a 400 pound guy, you should expect the 400 pounds to hit you back.(well i know it's not gonna be a 400 pound hit.. metaphor)
So by that logic, my Barbarian's attacks can pierce DR/-?
"I have DR/silver, therefore I can bypass DR/silver" is like saying "I am wearing a suit of armor, therefore all of my attacks can ignore armor and therefore are touch attacks". The guy may be wearing a 400 pound suit of armor, but it's not the armor that determines how hard he hits back.
Well if i'm stepping on any toes here, then i'm truly sorry..
I am listening to what people are saying.. but when 1 says i might be right, and another says i am wrong.. then it's considered shouting on my part, for trying to get my point across ?
Found my reference text. It's from 3.0 and states:
For purposes of harming other creatures with damage reduction, a creature's natural weapons count as weapons of the type that can ignore its own innate damage reduction. The amount of damage reduction is irrelevant.
So it's older then i thought. But i still think it's noteworthy..
Well peace out.
Overcoming DR
Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does.
Pulling a RAW here as it's says "Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment." Weapons is the key word here. Now let's look at say an Iron golem's DR of DR 15/adamantine, no where in the description does it say that they are treated as adamantine for over coming DR of other Iron golems.
In my games I don't allow creatures to just over come their own DR because they happen to have it (unless, and this is a BIG unless) the rules of the creature say that it's attacks are treated as X & Y (magic, evil, etc). Sure this leads to lycanthrope fights where they don't hurt each other very much, or vampires grabbing those handy silver weapons they keep around in case they need them, or demons happening to have a supply of holy water around "just in case".
Ninja by FranktheDM, and the rule was changed from the 3.0 reading where they were able to overcome their own DR to 3.5's (which is exactly the same as Pathfinders) where they couldn't.
3.0 or even 3.5 rules are completely irrelevant when discussing PF rules. What's next, wondering where non-weapon proficiencies are handled in the rules?
Read here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Damage-Reduction-Ex-or-Su-
It says you need to hit the creature with the right type of weapon. It gives 2 exceptions from that rule (magic and epic). And the fact that it does not explicitly say that all others are not granted the same exception means that they are?
No it means that they aren't.
Thats now the last thing I say here, because apparently you have your opinion and won't accept that you might be wrong.
If you don't like the RAW you can house rule it, that does not change RAW however.
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My 2 cents:
RAW, a vampire can't hurt another vampire with it's bare fists, and a demon can't hurt a devil with it's natural attacks (and vice versa). But tha doesn't mean that theirs fights are pointless. A vampire would use a magic and silver weapon against another vampire, or magic, or minions that can hurt its vampire foe. The same way, demons use magic, energy attacks and it's great strength to overcome devils resistences (and vice versa).
But, as i see, there is no harm if you house rule that creatures could bypass it's own DR against creatures of the same species.
The example with vampires is only one example. They use weapons and everything is fine. What about creatures with animal INT or without INT but with DR/silver etc.? They fight until one of them gets a heart attack?
RAW is clear but i think it was intended that creatures can hurt each other.
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I can't remember any creature with DR/alignment or (and) special aterial with animal-like inteligence, but i feel pity of Dretches and Lemures, they do pitfull damage and it's Spell Like Ability can do nothing against themselves, let alone against other demons and devils. Why they are used in demon/devil wars?? Laughable, but rules are rules and rules says you can house rule them.