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Gorbacz, if you're going to argue pure mechanic reasons, fighters get 11 bonus feats over 20 levels. Monks get 6 bonus feats over 20 levels. Fighters get to use armor, have access to higher damage weapons with 18-20/x2 crit ranges, and is the only class that can take a large number of feats that require "Fighter Level X" as a prerequisite.
Fighters have an ability built into the class that gives them straight, untyped bonuses of +4, +3, +2, and +1 to four different weapon groups of their choice, each weapon group consisting of 6-20 weapons. There would still be PLENTY of reasons to choose monk over fighter.
Yes, I am arguing when it comes to UNARMED MELEE CHARACTERS, monks should outshine fighters. It doesn't even have to be by alot. An unarmed fighter can still be a viable melee threat, but it should not do it better than monks.
I am not, as you may have misunderstood, saying that monks should be better in melee than fighters. I am perfectly okay if a Fighter at level 20 with a bland +5 longsword can out-DPR a monk by 20%. That's fine.
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See my post above. I get your point loud and clear.
Your point is "Monks should be better than Fighters in unarmed combat"
My point is "they shouldn't, because that makes melee Fighter obsolete. Between having the potential to inflict the best melee damage of all classes, best saves, fighter-level AC and superior mobility, Monk > melee Fighter (unless you prefer suboptimal choices for flavour reasons, Stormwind Fallacy where u at?)"
Why would I want to play a melee Fighter if a superior choice was available? And no, "because swinging a sword is cool" isn't an answer for me, and it won't be for any optimizer who goes for the numbers.
There are Monk issues, sure. The flurry should hit more often and some kind of reconciliation between their disconnected class abilities (superior mobility vs. flurry) would be nice. I am very much looking forward to any Monk tweaks from Jason & Co. But I am not looking for melee damage superiority at any rate.
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As I said earlier, Gorbacz suggests we erase the Monk from existence, because it threatens the Fighter's position as "top dog of melee fighting", even though the main difference between Fighter and Monk is that one is good with a huge range of weapons while the other MUST fight unarmed and unarmored in most cases.
The sheer level of contempt you hold for people who want the Monk to actually be good with their unarmed strikes (which truthfully is what the class exists for) is just amazing. But sure, let's just cover the pages where the Monk entries are in our CRB's and pretend it never existed, since apparently the Unarmed Fighter is what we were always supposed to play and never the Monk.
It isn't contempt, it is a realization that what you want from something isn't what it was MEANT to do.
As soon as the Fighter is doing 2d6+ damage, with his FIST OR SOME OTHER BODY PART for no other reason than being a Fighter we can have a conversation. The monk is good with his unarmed strikes and has the damage dice to back it up, feel free to ignore that as I'm sure you will, because it isn't "good enough" for you. Being good at something doesn't mean you have to outclass the guy who is supposed to be, you know, the Fighter in the group. Being able to do 2d6 AND have the AC of a medium armored unit AND have a +40' movement boost above and beyond your normal speed, all with no equipment and no investment? That isn't bad by any means for someone who is supposed to be "good" with their unarmed strikes. The fighter can't do that can he?
But no single class, archetype, or character build that does not include the word "Monk" should be able to outshine a monk in unarmed combat.
I can appreciate that those who are agitating for a change to the monk class think this is true (self-evident, even). Have any of the developers indicated that this is, indeed, one of the design considerations of the monk (or that it should be)?
I'm no system guru, but I personally wouldnt require a monk to be better than an unarmed combat specialising fighter. (Just like I think rangers should be the archetypal archers - but an archery specialised fighter should be better).
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As I said earlier, Gorbacz suggests we erase the Monk from existence, because it threatens the Fighter's position as "top dog of melee fighting", even though the main difference between Fighter and Monk is that one is good with a huge range of weapons while the other MUST fight unarmed and unarmored in most cases.
I think it's the time that your recurring practice of wildly misinterpreting others and putting words in their mouths stops.
Then do tell, what did you originally mean to say?
Because frankly, what I just interpreted from your earlier statement looks more or less right.
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Then do tell, what did you originally mean to say?
Because frankly, what I just interpreted from your earlier statement looks more or less right.
If you believe that you can fling mud at people AND expect them to entertain you with answers to your questions at the same time, then you're quite deep in said mud.
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The sheer level of contempt you hold for people who want the Monk to actually be good with their unarmed strikes (which truthfully is what the class exists for) is just amazing. But sure, let's just cover the pages where the Monk entries are in our CRB's and pretend it never existed, since apparently the Unarmed Fighter is what we were always supposed to play and never the Monk.It isn't contempt, it is a realization that what you want from something isn't what it was MEANT to do.
As soon as the Fighter is doing 2d6+ damage, with his FIST OR SOME OTHER BODY PART for no other reason than being a Fighter we can have a conversation. The monk is good with his unarmed strikes and has the damage dice to back it up, feel free to ignore that as I'm sure you will, because it isn't "good enough" for you. Being good at something doesn't mean you have to outclass the guy who is supposed to be, you know, the Fighter in the group. Being able to do 2d6 AND have the AC of a medium armored unit AND have a +40' movement boost above and beyond your normal speed, all with no equipment and no investment? That isn't bad by any means for someone who is supposed to be "good" with their unarmed strikes. The fighter can't do that can he?
You do realize even at the d8 they end up in with monks robes a fighter is going to have so many stacked bonuses to damage that the monks 2d10 is just shameful.
I mean really over a monk with the exact same str( which is unlikely) and the exact same AoMF at level 12( when the monk gets 2d6) the fighter has 10 more static damage 7 higher hit chance and one more attack and a higher threat range than the monk. And that's assuming the monk can afford the str pumping like a fighter can.
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I mean really over a monk with the exact same str( which is unlikely) and the exact same AoMF at level 12( when the monk gets 2d6) the fighter has 10 more static damage 7 higher hit chance and [/b]one more attack[/b] and a higher threat range than the monk. And that's assuming the monk can afford the str pumping like a fighter can.
How in the world is a fighter getting one more attack over the monk?
a 12th level monk has between 8-6 attacks depending on if Medusa's Wrath procs.
A 12th level fighter caps out at 6 and only if he has a Dex of 19.
In the topic of the OP, I would like to point out that a +5 AoMF (statted with non EB) and one +5 Allying Weapon costs 197k, whilst one +10 weapon costs 200k.
I mean really over a monk with the exact same str( which is unlikely) and the exact same AoMF at level 12( when the monk gets 2d6) the fighter has 10 more static damage 7 higher hit chance and [/b]one more attack[/b] and a higher threat range than the monk. And that's assuming the monk can afford the str pumping like a fighter can.How in the world is a fighter getting one more attack over the monk?
a 12th level monk has between 8-6 attacks depending on if Medusa's Wrath procs.
A 12th level fighter caps out at 6 and only if he has a Dex of 19.
The monk doesn't have his third extra attack until 14. Medusas doesn't proc as often as you might want to think unless someone in the party is setting you up. Also nothing prevents the fighter from also having medusas for a final tally of fighter still one attack ahead with his lowest attack rolls being only 2 points behind your highest.
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But that isn't true, it's a single archtype that gets the ability. So yeah maybe it is broken to let an entire BASE class do it.
If it's broken, then it's broken, end of. The dragoon can only do it with a lance, well the selection of weapons a monk can flurry with is just as bad if not worse. So if it's not broken for the dragoon, it's not broken for the monk so far as I can see.
It seems pretty clear to me that designers feel that not having to take the two weapon fighting tree while getting the benefits of the tree is worth an increase in the cost of an enhancement bonus. Also, considering that your magic weapons can't be disarmed is pretty powerful.
Except that you don't actually get the benefits of the tree. You cannot flurry with any weapon you are proficient in, just a subset of sucky weapons no fighter would touch with his lucern hammer. The monk's unarmed strike is the only weapon really worth flurrying with at face value, and that drops off as soon as enhancement kicks in because said monk is behind the curve. You call it five feats, but given all the restrictions on it and the lack of choice, I'd say it worth two, max.
Except you are forgetting that Monk gains the following benefits for free:
Full BAB progression for a Full-Round attack
And 3/4 BAB every other time, and by the way, that's full BAB-2 because you are locked into the TWF paradigm. Know any other classes so nerfed?
Unarmed Strike
Wow, he gets a free weapon that hits as well as club worth 1cp. Yes it scales in damage dice, but damage dice are not where the real damage is at - that's with threat ranges and static bonuses, and the monk is way behind in those.
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Except he does NOT get these feats, he gets to attack with a substandard set of weapons as if he had them. He doesn't get any access to the rest of the feat tree, and he doesn't get to use them with a weapon that might actually be worth carrying around. That's not four feats worth, it's one or two given all the restrictions.
Stunning Fist
Oh please! For stunning fist to work you have to hit the target and do damage. The monk usually falls at this hurdle. Then they get a save, which they can probably make. Against your typical CR10 target a 10th level monk will pull off a stunning fist attack an average one time in ten (I crunched the numbers once, assuming a good AC target, with weak save, and a reasonably optimised monk). I took a monk to 8th level before I got my first successful stunning fist attack!
Doesn't need a Dex of 19
But he'd better have one anyway if he wants a decent AC, especially as he cannot use an amulet of natural armour if he wants to hit anything.
Can deal non-lethal damage without taking a penalty
Cost of a sap, anyone?
Can Disarm, Trip, Sunder and Stun as part of a flurry of blows
Anyone can replace a normal attack with one of these maneuvers. Your point was?
1: Every TWF is BAB-2. The Monk has the same BAB as a fighter or Ranger TWF.
But they have the option to not TWF to get a better BAB, and the monk does not. They have their BAB for feat acquisition, and the monk does not. Look at the whole package, remember?
2: How are they better than the monk exactly. They do 1d3 damage with unarmed strikes and have to spend 5 feats to do the same thing that a monk does without any feat tax.
You miss the point that with those five feats and two magic weapons they out-hit and out-damage the monk by a huge margin by using better weapons than the monk has no access to. Added to that they can then take the extra feats to up their AC and deliver yet more damage.
4: The monk can make better use of Stunning Fist than any other class, it allows him to Flurry easier, and procs Medusa's Wrath.
When it works. See above.
Everything you described: Declaring it before attacking, having to hit, and the save...all that stuff applies to many good abilities. Those are to balance the fact of how good Stunning Fist is.
You mean, they make it virtually useless, because these other areas are where the monk is weak compared to other classes - other classes that can take stunning fist if they choose to, and hence end up better at it than the monk.
5: Yeah, I was under the impression all Combat Maneuvers were standard actions. Sorry bout that.
The point is not exclusivity. Yes, other classes have access to what the monk gets. The point is that Monks don't have to spend resources to get those features. Other classes DO. My point is that while the monk has to pay more to get his AoMF, the other classes have to spend non-monetary resources to TWF as good as a Monk can naturally.
Instead, the monk gets to blow all HIS resources just to try and function properly as a monk, and still fails. And then they do not TWF as good as the monk, they TWF vastly better than the monk.
Also, AoMF is not 2.5 more expensive, it's 1.25 times more expensive.
Two +1 weapons is 4000g, a +1 AoMF is 5000g. that's 1.25 the cost, not 2.5
Two +5 weapons are 100K, a +5 AoMF is 125K. Again, 1.25 the cost, not 2.5
Sure, but the other class doesn't HAVE to buy two +5 weapons does he? He can buy one +5 and one +3 weapon so he always has a single weapon that can get through DR and hit a high AC target. And they do not take up a slot, do they?
If we assume weapons are doubled in price because they do not take a body slot, then the REAL cost of the AoMF is 2.5 times that of an equivelant weapon, isn't it?
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Then do tell, what did you originally mean to say?
I think the two sides of this argument are:
(1) The monk should be best at unarmed combat, for reasons of flavour. (Which is not the same as doing more damage than a fighter with a two-handed weapons.)(2) The unarmed brawler fighter should be better at inflicting unarmed combat damage, for reasons of balance (because monk will have better speed, saves & touch AC to compensate).
Side 1 probably wants the brawler fighter not to exist.
Damage is a rather integral part of D&D combat, hence why the Monk being the best more or less means he should be able to dish out some pain.
Then do tell, what did you originally mean to say?I think the two sides of this argument are:
(1) The monk should be best at unarmed combat, for reasons of flavour. (Which is not the same as doing more damage than a fighter with a two-handed weapons.)
(2) The unarmed brawler fighter should be better at inflicting unarmed combat damage, for reasons of balance (because monk will have better speed, saves & touch AC to compensate).Side 1 probably wants the brawler fighter not to exist.
Problem is that (2) precludes (1), because the unarmed fighter will always be ahead on hitting, and if he is ahead on damage too then the monk is never going to be the best at unarmed combat.
That said as long as the monk can be made effective I'll be happy. If, for example, monk unarmed attacks could bypass DR (all of it, not just a small subset at high level) then the monk would be a valuable asset in any combat with a creature with DR even if the unarmed brawler could out hit and out damage him.
If the monk's attacks were improved in enhancement (and I'm favouring ki strike granting a natural enhancement to hit myself) then things like stunning fist get effective enough to actually make a difference more than once in a blue moon and start to work as intended. If the monk's bonus movement from ki was changed to give them 20' movement as a swift action, then they actually become the mobile combatant they promise to be but fail on.
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How's that?
Your attacks:
+24/+19/+14 (1d3+28 20/x2) (Reach 5)Your average damage if all attacks hit: 90
Mine:
+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (4d8+20/x2) (Reach 10-15) (+2 Attacks if Medusa's Wrath Procs)Average damage:228 (304 on Medusa's Wrath)
Uhm... You can't compare damage like that. You can't just assume all attacks hit! You have to factor AC. The average AC for a CR12 opponent should be 27 (bestiary).
The average DPR on a full attack against that creature is for the fighter:
(0.9*30+(0.05*0.9*30))+(0.65*30+(0.05*0.65*30))+(0.4*30+(0.05*0.4*30)) = 61.425
The average DPR on a full attack for the monk is:
(0.55*38+(0.05*0.55*38))+(0.55*38+(0.05*0.55*38))+(0.55*38+(0.05*0.55*38))+ (0.3*38+(0.05*0.3*38))+(0.3*38+(0.05*0.3*38))+(0.05*38+(0.05*0.05*38))= 91.77
Still, that's a monk optimized for damage and a fighter that is not. I mean, you use two dump stats at 7, he uses one at 8. Now, a more DPR focused fighter:
Unni the Unarmed (Dwarf Weapon Master 12)
Init:+2
Darkvison (60 ft)
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Str 24 (17 +3 lvl+4 Belt)
Dex 14
Con 16 (14+2 race)
Int 7
Wis 14 (12+2(race))
Cha 6 (7-2 (race))
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Hp: 118 (12d10+48)
AC: 22 (10+2(Dex) +6(armor) +4 (shield)
Fort +13
Ref +8
Will +12
(+4 vs magic)
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Melee
Single attack: Unarmed strike +12(BAB)+7(Str)+5(WT)+2(GWF)+3+2(GMF/Wraps)-4(Power Attack) = +27.
Damage: 1d3 + 10(str)+5(WT)+4(GWS)+8(PA)+3+2(GWF/Wraps)+1d6(fire)+1d6(electric)+1d4 bleed = 41.5 (assuming one round of bleed).
Full attack: Unarmed Strike +27/+27/+22/+17 (1d3+32+1d6(f)+1d6(e)+1d4(b)
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1. Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
2. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Guard
3. Dragon Style, Weapon Training
4. Weapon Specialization (US)
5. Combat Reflexes, Reliable Strike
6. Steel Soul
7. Belier's Bite
8. Stunning Fist (3 day, 18 DC)
9. Dragon Ferocity, Mirror Move
10. Greater Weapon Focus (US)
11. Iron Will
12. Greater Weapon Specialization (US)
Skills
Acrobatics +13
Perception +14
Climb +11
Swim +11
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+ 1 Brawling Mithral Chain Mail (8 K), Glovs of dueling (15 K), Belt Of Str +4 (16K), Boots of Haste (6k), +1 Flaming, Shocking Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes (27 K), Cloak of protection +2 (4K), +2 Heavy Shield (4k), various potions of whatever (fly etc). Permanent GMF +3 (10k) (yeah, if you have permanent enlarge person I can too, but i kept it at CL12 since that's the characters level). Total wealth ~90k
So what's the DPR here?
Unarmed Strike +27/+27/+22/+17 [1d3+32+1d6(f)+1d6(e)+1d4(b)]
(0.95*41.5+(0.05*0.95*32))+(0.95*41.5+(0.05*0.95*32))+(0.8*41.5+(0.05*0.8*3 2))+(0.55*41.5+(0.05*0.55*32)) = 140.07
So, to recap:
Non-optimized fighter: ~60
Optimized monk: ~90
Optimized fighter: ~140
It's ambiguous if monks can benefit from ki bonus attack and haste at the same time, but even if we can, that just gives the monk ~21 extra damage so it still comes out short.
On the other hand, if all of them got an attack of opportunity, the non-op't fighter's DPR would increase to 89.77, the monk's would increase to 113.71, and the op't fighters would increase to 181.02.
Hamatula increases the monk's DPR by a bit, but even when it triggers it will be lower than the fighter's.
Now, both the monk and fighter could be optimized further, and the monk has many benefits that the fighter doesn't (higher movement rate, higher saves, slight self-healing, dimension door etc) and I'm generally part of the "the monk isn't THAT bad" crowd (though there are issues).
But in terms of damage, an unarmed fighter (as in fighter that fights unarmed, not the archetype) beats the monk hands down. I personally think the unarmed-focused fighter (boxer) SHOULD beat the monk in terms of damage because damage is what the fighter does. I do not think that the gap should be that large though.
EDIT: The monk loses out a LOT by using power attack. It's attack bonus is far too bad. Just not using it increased expected DPR to 107, and swapping the feat for Belier's Bite increased it to 115, assuming an average bleed duration of 1 round.
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Snip
1: Monks TWF. That's what they do. If you are complaining that a monk is locked into the TWF paradigm, then you should have played a monk. It's like complaining that your car doesn't fly. Stop trying to make the class do something it wasn't designed to do.
2: Every other class that wishes to do Unarmed Strikes needs to take Improved Unarmed Strike, many of which have to pay it as a feat tax, and even then, they're stuck at a 1d3.
3: The rest of the feat tree blows, he has the equivalent of any feat in that tree worth taking. And I disagree that they're substandard weapons. They monk's fists are certainly better than any other unarmed fighter's weapons.
4: A Tenth level monk has about a 50/50 chance to hit an Adult Green Dragon and easily bypasses the DR. Yes, the Dragon can probably make the save on the stunning fist, although if your party is hopefully debuffing, then it's only got probably a 60% chance. Even then though, there are definitely times when Stunning Fist is useful. Around the level where a party will encounter succubi, a monk will probably have a 50/50 hit on them, bypass their DR, and have a fair nice save, probably something the succubus only will have a 50-40% shot at making. Meanwhile, the fighter is chasing the wizard around the room because the succubus made him her monkey boy.
5: Naw, AC is a loser's game. It's only really important at low levels, once you get into the mid game, it's a DPS race. You have to spend too much time and resources to get a respectable AC; your character's other abilities will suffer for it, and the monsters will STILL hit you.
6: You have to draw a sap. Fists are always out.
7: I wasn't aware of that when I posted that, my apologies.
8: I said earlier, The monk TWFs. That's what he does. Complaining that he doesn't have other options isn't really a great complaint. Stop trying to force a square peg through a round hole.
9: Yeah there are going to be classes that out damage the monk, but the question needs to be do similar classes out damage the monk. My issue is with the unarmed fighter archetype that does seem like it out damages the monk at the monk's wheelhouse. But I think that's a problem with the unarmed fighter archetype and power creep than it is with the monk.
10: Ok, The monk gets Stunning Fist 7 levels before any other class and doesn't have to meet the per-requisites and can use it far more often than other classes. They're just NOT going to be better than it than the monk.
11: Yes, the fighter can TWF better than the monk. The monk gets evasion, he's got Full saves for all 3 saves, +60 move speed, Immunity to Diseases and Poison, Can heal himself by spending Ki Points, Can dimension door, and Gets spell resistance
12: Yes, the AoMF is 2.5 more than a singular weapon, but it provides a bonus to BOTH attacks. Therefore, it's disingenuous to compare the cost of one magic weapon to an amulet of mighty fists. The more fair comparison is TWO magic weapons vs one Amulet.
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Honestly, I think the problem here is not with the monk but rather with the power creep from all the new sourcebooks.
Here is a Unarmed Fighter and a Monk I made using Core, APG, UM, UC, and UE
Human Monk 12
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 22, flat-footed 23 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 111 (12d8+36)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +17/+12 (2d8+20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +17/+17/+12/+12/+7, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 20/26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 16/20, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +20 (+22 Bull Rushing, +24 Grappling); CMD 39 (41 vs. Bull Rush, 41 vs. Grapple)
Feats Deflect Arrows, Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds, Dragon Style, Greater Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -3/+6, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Toughness +12, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +17, Perception +20, Stealth +17
Languages Common
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +9, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Ring of Feather Falling, Slow Fall 60', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Belt of Giant Strength, +6, Bracers of Armor, +3, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Feather Falling, Ring of Protection, +1, Robe, Monk's, Slippers of Spider Climbing
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Ki Pool (Su) - 0/11
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) - 0/13
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Greater Grapple +2 to grapple, maintaining a grapple is a move action.
High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point) (Ex) +12 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Bull Rush Bull Rush at +2 to push back. No attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ring of Feather Falling This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet.
Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Male Human Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) 12
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +4 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 124 (12d10+36)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Harsh Training +3; DR 6/lethal
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d3+30/19-20/x2) (1d3+26/x2 on offhand)
Special Attacks Takedown (Drag), Trick Throw, Weapon Training +2
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Statistics
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Str 20/24, Dex 15/19, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +19; CMD 35 (39 vs. Disarm, 39 vs. Sunder)
Feats Double Slice, Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds, Dragon Style, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack -4/+8, Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 17), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +12, Survival +16, Swim +14
Languages Common
SQ Clever Wrestler, Gloves of Dueling, Ring of Feather Falling
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Chain Shirt; Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & DEX +4, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Gloves of Dueling, Ring of Feather Falling, Ring of Protection, +2
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 17) - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Clever Wrestler (Ex) At 7th level, an unarmed fighter takes no penalties to Dexterity or on attack rolls while grappled, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent. The unarmed fighter can make attacks of opportunity even when grappled and even again
Damage Reduction (6/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Harsh Training +3 (Ex) +3 Will save vs. effects that cause exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability scores
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of Feather Falling This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet.
Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Takedown (Drag) (Ex) Attempt to trip a foe you succeed on a drag maneuver against.
Trick Throw (Ex) Attempt a dirty trick maneuver on a foe you successfully trip with an unarmed attack.
Weapon Training +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with monk and natural weapons.
So, we can see there are problems here.
Scooter has got +6 to hit over Bruce, one extra attack, his attacks average 30 damage, and have a 10% Crit chance.
Meanwhile, poor Bruce average of 29 damage and only has a 5% Crit chance
Meanwhile, here are the same two characters using just core rules.
Human Monk 12
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +19
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 21, flat-footed 22 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 123 (12d8+48)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +15
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +17/+12 (2d8+16/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +17/+17/+12/+12/+7, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 20/26, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 14/18, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +20 (+22 Bull Rushing, +24 Grappling); CMD 38 (40 vs. Bull Rush, 40 vs. Grapple)
Feats Deflect Arrows, Greater Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Medusa's Wrath, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -3/+6, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 20), Toughness +12, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Acrobatics +17, Perception +19, Stealth +17
Languages Common
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +8, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Ring of Feather Falling, Slow Fall 60', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Belt of Giant Strength, +6, Bracers of Armor, +3, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Feather Falling, Ring of Protection, +1, Robe, Monk's
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Ki Pool (Su) - 0/10
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 20) - 0/13
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Greater Grapple +2 to grapple, maintaining a grapple is a move action.
High Jump (+12/+32 with Ki point) (Ex) +12 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Bull Rush Bull Rush at +2 to push back. No attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ring of Feather Falling This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet.
Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Wholeness of Body (12 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Human Fighter 12
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+12 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 100 (12d10+12)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 (1d3+24/19-20/x2) (1d3+20 Off Hand)
[b]Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Light, Weapon Training: Close
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Statistics
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Str 22/26, Dex 15/19, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 13/15, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 36
Feats Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Initiative, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack -4/+8, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Climb +17, Survival +17, Swim +17
Languages Common
SQ Armor Training 3
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Full Plate; Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & DEX +4, Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Protection, +1
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day) - 0/10
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Special Abilities
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Armor Training 3 (Ex) Worn armor -3 check penalty, +3 max DEX.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training: Close +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Now, Scooter only has +3 to hit over Bruce and his average damage is 24
Meanwhile, Bruce is averaging 25 damage on his attacks
Now, I know that this looks like Scooter is still Edging out Bruce, but soon Bruce is also going to have improved Critical, his Damage dice are going to step up to 2d10, which will increase his average damage by 2 points, and he'll continue to pick up more attacks.
Now, when you take that into account with the fact that Bruce gets the benefit of all his cool Monk powers and that Scooter will hate his life if he has to stop using his unarmed strikes because he took all his feats in unarmed strikes, they're actually not that bad off.
1: Monks TWF. That's what they do. If you are complaining that a monk is locked into the TWF paradigm, then you should have played a monk. It's like complaining that your car doesn't fly. Stop trying to make the class do something it wasn't designed to do.
So your answer here is in effect "Sucks to be a monk!"
If Flurry of blows is what monks do, then it should be a viable option for them to perform, not a nerfed version of what every other class does better if it cares to take the feats.
2: Every other class that wishes to do Unarmed Strikes needs to take Improved Unarmed Strike, many of which have to pay it as a feat tax, and even then, they're stuck at a 1d3.
Why would they want to when all the other combat classes have access to way, way better weapons?
3: The rest of the feat tree blows, he has the equivalent of any feat in that tree worth taking. And I disagree that they're substandard weapons. They monk's fists are certainly better than any other unarmed fighter's weapons.
Let's test this statement shall we? (assuming WBL and no more than 25% WBL on any one item, ignoring dueling gloves & monk robes as they have roughly the same effect). As we are including the rising damage dice of the monk it's only fair to include the rising weapon training and fighter-only feats of the fighter.
Level 1-3: Monk has 1d6 20/x2 for his fist. Fighter can take a one-handed weapon that does 1d6 18-20/x2. If he wants to TWF, two kukris at 1d4 18-20/x2 still beats the monk's damage output. By 2nd level all weapons will be masterwork, which is +1 to hit on the monk as well. Fighter is better off.
Level 4-7: Monk does 1d8 20/x2 for his fist, by level 7 he can just afford an AoMF for +1 to hit and damage. Fighter with two kukris has them at +1 at 4th level and +2 to damage with Weapon Specialisation, and adds weapon training at 5th level. He is doing as much in base damage with the kukri at 5th level as the monk, with a higher threat range. At 7th it's 1d8+1 20/x2 vs 1d4+4 18-20/x2. Advantage fighter, plus the fighter is +1 to hit over the monk.
Level 8-11: Monk does 1d10+1 20/x2 for his fist with a +1 AoMF. Fighter can get another +1 to hit ahead at 8th level (GWF), and can also take Improved Critical (monk can take this at 10th). Fighter gets +2 weapons at 9th level, the monk doesn't get a +2 AoMF until 11th when the fighter gets +3 weapons. So we are comparing 1d10+2 19-20/x2 to 1d4+7 15-20/x2 at the peak, with the fighter +4 to hit on top. Advantage still to the fighter.
Level 12-15: Monk does 2d6+2 19-20/x2 with +2 AoMF. At 14th level the monk can afford a +3 AoMF...at 15th level the fighter is on +5 weapons, he's been on +4 weapons since 13th when he also got Greater Weapon Specialisation. So at peak we are comparing 2d6+3 19-20/x2 to 1d4+12 15-20/x2, fighter now +6 to hit over the monk.
Need I go on? Damage dice are nice, but there is a reason some fighters two-hand with a falcata - static bonuses and threat range/multiplier count for more, and landing hits on target counts for MUCH more.
4: A Tenth level monk has about a 50/50 chance to hit an Adult Green Dragon and easily bypasses the DR. Yes, the Dragon can probably make the save on the stunning fist, although if your party is hopefully debuffing, then it's only got probably a 60% chance.
Dragon's Fort save is +14, the party will be countering the dragon's buffs first, and the monk's save DC could be around 19 (10th level, 18 Wis), so the dragon saves 80% of the time. That leaves the monk's chances of success at 50% x 20% = 10%, and he only gets one attempt per turn. Great if it happens, but hardly dependable.
Even then though, there are definitely times when Stunning Fist is useful.
When it works.
Around the level where a party will encounter succubi, a monk will probably have a 50/50 hit on them, bypass their DR
Er, how? Succubus is CR7, at 7th level a monk has a +1 Amulet of mighty fists and dishes out 1d8+1 20/x2 damage as a result. That isn't enough to get through the DR 10/good and cold iron of the succubus, even a critical hit has no guarantee of damage. I mean the monk may have +12 to hit their AC of 20, but that DR shuts him down there and then. CMD of 22 is beatable, but grappling is right out against a creature like a succubus! It can't be disarmed, so that leaves tripping.
If our monk is high strength then they might manage to do some damage with Dragon Style, but then their AC will suck and vampiric touch at will is going to hurt them.
, and have a fair nice save, probably something the succubus only will have a 50-40% shot at making. Meanwhile, the fighter is chasing the wizard around the room because the succubus made him her monkey boy.
Irrelevant, the monk cannot punch through that DR reliably.
5: Naw, AC is a loser's game. It's only really important at low levels, once you get into the mid game, it's a DPS race. You have to spend too much time and resources to get a respectable AC; your character's other abilities will suffer for it, and the monsters will STILL hit you.
Actually AC counts for a lot. You still get hit, but you get hit less and you get less confirmed critical hits. The monk's AC is one of his few strengths.
6: You have to draw a sap. Fists are always out.
If drawing weapons was a regular issue, every PC with one would have Quickdraw as a feat. They don't, because it isn't.
7: I wasn't aware of that when I posted that, my apologies.
That's OK. I find many of the people who insist the monk is not underpowered, or that the AoMF is perfectly fine, generally haven't read up all the rules or extrapolated all their consequences.
8: I said earlier, The monk TWFs. That's what he does. Complaining that he doesn't have other options isn't really a great complaint. Stop trying to force a square peg through a round hole.
The problem here is that Flurry of Blows isn't TWF: it gets the attacks of TWF, true, but it doesn't get the follow on feats and it is limited in which weapons it applies to. It has all the disadvantages of TWF but only half the advantages. Flurrying with one weapon only would redress this somewhat.
9: Yeah there are going to be classes that out damage the monk, but the question needs to be do similar classes out damage the monk.
Yes, they do. The damage dice for the monk look good, but as I stated the weapon threat range is a huge factor, as are the static bonuses. Any full BAB class, sans their speciality (barbarian rage, paladin smite etc) can still out damage the monk against a standard target. Actual damage rolled will be less, but higher enhancement, less MADness and full BAB ensure that they can get more hits on target which brings up their DPR to beat the monk. In fact some things just shut the monk down at higher levels without even trying, leaving him an nuisance to be crushed later.
My issue is with the unarmed fighter archetype that does seem like it out damages the monk at the monk's wheelhouse. But I think that's a problem with the unarmed fighter archetype and power creep than it is with the monk.
I agree, it's like making a fighter archetype that smites better than the paladin.
10: Ok, The monk gets Stunning Fist 7 levels before any other class and doesn't have to meet the per-requisites and can use it far more often than other classes. They're just NOT going to be better than it than the monk.
Well my most recent monk got to 8th level before pulling off a successful stunning fist, but that's by the by. When they get stunning fist, they can make it count more from the fact that they hit more often and deal more damage. That makes it more likely they will force a save on a target for any given stunning fist attempt. Above, the monk only had a 10% chance per round of getting in a successful stun in any given round. If a fighter hits more often and overcomes DR more often, then if they have only two attempts out of stunning fist, and it is only twice as likely to hit as the monk, then in a three-round encounter they will succeed 40% of the time to the monk's 30%.
11: Yes, the fighter can TWF better than the monk. The monk gets evasion, he's got Full saves for all 3 saves, +60 move speed, Immunity to Diseases and Poison, Can heal himself by spending Ki Points, Can dimension door, and Gets spell resistance
He doesn't get armour or shields, has d8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB. He's immune to stuff he'll probably make a save on anyway. He has to pay a feat tax on his dimension door to make it work as intended. His spell resistance blocks friendly buffs. And gosh, he can spend a large chunk of his ki-pool to do as much as drinking a 50gp potion. Gosh. But hey, he can run away faster than anyone except those that can teleport - oh yes, that's most casters by the time he gets +60'.
12: Yes, the AoMF is 2.5 more than a singular weapon, but it provides a bonus to BOTH attacks. Therefore, it's disingenuous to compare the cost of one magic weapon to an amulet of mighty fists. The more fair comparison is TWO magic weapons vs one Amulet.
Sure. One SLOTLESS amulet compared to two weapons (slotless) is 10,000gp compared to 4,600gp for +1. Because that is what the slot is worth, let's not forget. Or you could look up above at when the monk gets an amulet levels behind the fighter...
Fact is, the AoMF is a sucky item for the monk. It's way too expensive not just in gold but in the slot it occupies, and the extra cost racks up over levels to keep the monk comofrtably +1 to +2 behind equivelant weapons up to around 18th level, compounding the monk's MAD problems.
Fact is, the AoMF is a sucky item for the monk. It's way too expensive not just in gold but in the slot it occupies, and the extra cost racks up over levels to keep the monk comofrtably +1 to +2 behind equivelant weapons up to around 18th level, compounding the monk's MAD problems.
I disagree. As I pointed out earlier, one amulet plus an allying weapon = +5 fist with +5 worth of amulet stuff for the price of 197k compared to 200k for a comparable weapon. Sure you build up slower, but by the end you are even, and it is an even better value to pick up a second +10 fist, as long as you share the same amulet buffs between them.
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Then do tell, what did you originally mean to say?I think the two sides of this argument are:
(1) The monk should be best at unarmed combat, for reasons of flavour. (Which is not the same as doing more damage than a fighter with a two-handed weapons.)
(2) The unarmed brawler fighter should be better at inflicting unarmed combat damage, for reasons of balance (because monk will have better speed, saves & touch AC to compensate).Side 1 probably wants the brawler fighter not to exist.
I take the door number 2, please.
I think the problem is that these two classes are clashing for the same hilltop.
"There can be only one."
My personal thought :
A) The monk should be the best unarmed/unarmored combatant.
B) The unarmed fighter should be the best unarmed/armored combatant.
C) A fighter using his fists should be behind both of these two.
The monk and unarmed fighter should have about the same DPR, both should be viable. Right now, they are not roughly equal DPR wise.
My personal thought :
A) The monk should be the best unarmed/unarmored combatant.
B) The unarmed fighter should be the best unarmed/armored combatant.
C) A fighter using his fists should be behind both of these two.The monk and unarmed fighter should have about the same DPR, both should be viable. Right now, they are not roughly equal DPR wise.
Does this really account for the other goodies the monk gets? Mainly, awesome saves?
It seems to me the vocal monk crowd undervalues those defensive abilities as compared to the fighter. Should the monk have awesome defensive abilities and still be putting out damage comparable to a fighter?
Fact is, the AoMF is a sucky item for the monk. It's way too expensive not just in gold but in the slot it occupies, and the extra cost racks up over levels to keep the monk comofrtably +1 to +2 behind equivelant weapons up to around 18th level, compounding the monk's MAD problems.I disagree. As I pointed out earlier, one amulet plus an allying weapon = +5 fist with +5 worth of amulet stuff for the price of 197k compared to 200k for a comparable weapon. Sure you build up slower, but by the end you are even, and it is an even better value to pick up a second +10 fist, as long as you share the same amulet buffs between them.
Problems with this are:
1) Are you your own ally?2) Can you 'wield' the weapon without making an attack with it?
Otherwise, it can't work if you are attacking unarmed (the point here, or else you may as well forget fighting unarmed and use a weapon) and it can't work if you do not count as your own ally for the purposes of the weapon property.
My personal thought :
A) The monk should be the best unarmed/unarmored combatant.
B) The unarmed fighter should be the best unarmed/armored combatant.
C) A fighter using his fists should be behind both of these two.The monk and unarmed fighter should have about the same DPR, both should be viable. Right now, they are not roughly equal DPR wise.
Does this really account for the other goodies the monk gets? Mainly, awesome saves?
It seems to me the vocal monk crowd undervalues those defensive abilities as compared to the fighter. Should the monk have awesome defensive abilities and still be putting out damage comparable to a fighter?
You would be wrong, it is taken into account quite a bit. AC the fighter is often a little ahead of the monk that doesn't spend ki, except for touch AC. The monk has less hit points to care for, and saves are good...but not a be-all and end all. Paladins, for example, have better saves than monks on the whole, thanks to divine grace.
I have said many times, I don't mind if the monk's damage is less than the fighter's as long as he has a means of getting through DR and can hit accurately. That way his other abilities come into play to help make up the difference.
If you look at the other combat classes, they all have a 'speciality' in which they exceed the fighter considerably, and a baseline comparable to one another and lower than the fighter's ability to which they fall back when their speciality isn't available. The monk needs to meet that baseline and he doesn't. If he could meet it, then a trick to bypass DR and his defences could be his speciality, and I would call him balanced with the other combat classes.
I have said many times, I don't mind if the monk's damage is less than the fighter's as long as he has a means of getting through DR and can hit accurately. That way his other abilities come into play to help make up the difference.
This, I've never wanted the Monk to out damage the Fighter, but when you throw in DR and the core monks in ability to get past it, its sorta terrible.
The monk needs to meet that baseline and he doesn't. If he could meet it, then a trick to bypass DR and his defences could be his speciality, and I would call him balanced with the other combat classes.
Well not that archetypes are exactly the fixes we want, they have given the option for something exactly along those lines you've described with the Martial Artist, whom as a swift can grant themselves a +2 on attacks(full BAB!) & bypass DR if they make a WIS check. Sorta proves that someone is aware of what the monk needs lol.
1) Are you your own ally?
Yes
Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
2) Can you 'wield' the weapon without making an attack with it?
It is debatable, but it would appear that you can get away with using your last attack for the weapon that transferred the bonus. Note that allying says that you must allocate the bonus at the start of [your] turn before using [your] weapon. Good 'ole skr likes to say that you must attack with a weapon to "use" it, and since you must use this ability explicitly before you have had a chance to attack (or move for that matter), you first allocate the bonus, then you go about getting in your requisite attack, at some point.
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1: Monks TWF. That's what they do. If you are complaining that a monk is locked into the TWF paradigm, then you should have played a monk. It's like complaining that your car doesn't fly. Stop trying to make the class do something it wasn't designed to do.
So your answer here is in effect "Sucks to be a monk!"
If Flurry of blows is what monks do, then it should be a viable option for them to perform, not a nerfed version of what every other class does better if it cares to take the feats.
I agree with you that Flurry needs a buff, not that it "Sucks to be a monk." My point was that monks are entirely designed around Flurry/TWF. The class isn't intended to be a 2H or Sword and Board, or archer(I know there's the stupid zen archer thing, but I'm being a purist here)
2: Every other class that wishes to do Unarmed Strikes needs to take Improved Unarmed Strike, many of which have to pay it as a feat tax, and even then, they're stuck at a 1d3.Why would they want to when all the other combat classes have access to way, way better weapons?
Well, I'm doing my best to keep the comparisons as close as possible. I mean, if you're going to compare a monk to a fighter dual wielding wakizashi's that crit on a 15-20, you might as well just throw the whole damn thing out the window and compare it to paladin's smiting and druids transforming into Allosaures that have 5 natural attacks and pounce.
I was trying to find a comparison as close to the monk as possible.
3: The rest of the feat tree blows, he has the equivalent of any feat in that tree worth taking. And I disagree that they're substandard weapons. They monk's fists are certainly better than any other unarmed fighter's weapons.
Let's test this statement shall we? (assuming WBL and no more than 25% WBL on any one item, ignoring dueling gloves & monk robes as they have roughly the same effect). As we are including the rising damage dice of the monk it's only fair to include the rising weapon training and fighter-only feats of the fighter.
Level 1-3: Monk has 1d6 20/x2 for his fist. Fighter can take a one-handed weapon that does 1d6 18-20/x2. If he wants to TWF, two kukris at 1d4 18-20/x2 still beats the monk's damage output. By 2nd level all weapons will be masterwork, which is +1 to hit on the monk as well. Fighter is better off.
Level 4-7: Monk does 1d8 20/x2 for his fist, by level 7 he can just afford an AoMF for +1 to hit and damage. Fighter with two kukris has them at +1 at 4th level and +2 to damage with Weapon Specialisation, and adds weapon training at 5th level. He is doing as much in base damage with the kukri at 5th level as the monk, with a higher threat range. At 7th it's 1d8+1 20/x2 vs 1d4+4 18-20/x2. Advantage fighter, plus the fighter is +1 to hit over the monk.
Level 8-11: Monk does 1d10+1 20/x2 for his fist with a +1 AoMF. Fighter can get another +1 to hit ahead at 8th level (GWF), and can also take Improved Critical (monk can take this at 10th). Fighter gets +2 weapons at 9th level, the monk doesn't get a +2 AoMF until 11th when the fighter gets +3 weapons. So we are comparing 1d10+2 19-20/x2 to 1d4+7 15-20/x2 at the peak, with the fighter +4 to hit on top. Advantage still to the fighter.
Level 12-15: Monk does 2d6+2 19-20/x2 with +2 AoMF. At 14th level the monk can afford a +3 AoMF...at 15th level the fighter is on +5 weapons, he's been on +4 weapons since 13th when he also got Greater Weapon Specialisation. So at peak we are comparing 2d6+3 19-20/x2 to 1d4+12 15-20/x2, fighter now +6 to hit over the monk.
Need I go on? Damage dice are nice, but there is a reason some fighters two-hand with a falcata - static bonuses and threat range/multiplier count for more, and landing hits on target counts for MUCH more.
Well again, that's not what I was comparing. I was comparing an unarmed fighter to an unarmed monk. Yeah the fighter has better options, I understand that wholly, but like I said, you might as well compare Paladins as well for what it's worth.
Dragon's Fort save is +14, the party will be countering the dragon's buffs first, and the monk's save DC could be around 19 (10th level, 18 Wis), so the dragon saves 80% of the time. That leaves the monk's chances of success at 50% x 20% = 10%, and he only gets one attempt per turn. Great if it happens, but hardly dependable.
4: A Tenth level monk has about a 50/50 chance to hit an Adult Green Dragon and easily bypasses the DR. Yes, the Dragon can probably make the save on the stunning fist, although if your party is hopefully debuffing, then it's only got probably a 60% chance.
Well, I'm assuming you're not just running in shouting "STUNNING FIST HO!" but rather waiting for things like Prayer and Sicken to hurt the dragon's save (Extra points if you have a witch).
Around the level where a party will encounter succubi, a monk will probably have a 50/50 hit on them, bypass their DREr, how? Succubus is CR7, at 7th level a monk has a +1 Amulet of mighty fists and dishes out 1d8+1 20/x2 damage as a result. That isn't enough to get through the DR 10/good and cold iron of the succubus, even a critical hit has no guarantee of damage. I mean the monk may have +12 to hit their AC of 20, but that DR shuts him down there and then. CMD of 22 is beatable, but grappling is right out against a creature like a succubus! It can't be disarmed, so that leaves tripping.
If our monk is high strength then they might manage to do some damage with Dragon Style, but then their AC will suck and vampiric touch at will is going to hurt them.
Yeah...just ignore that, hahaha. I was going back and forth between the succubus and Green dragon and for some reason I read it as the succubus have DR magic. I don't know why, just chalk it up to being really tired as I wrote it, and as I write this.
I was basically trying to illustrate a point that at lower levels not every creature has a baller fort save like they do at higher levels (which I find somewhat problematic). Just screwed up the example royally cause I'm tired. My bad.
Naw, AC is a loser's game. It's only really important at low levels, once you get into the mid game, it's a DPS race. You have to spend too much time and resources to get a respectable AC; your character's other abilities will suffer for it, and the monsters will STILL hit you.Actually AC counts for a lot. You still get hit, but you get hit less and you get less confirmed critical hits. The monk's AC is one of his few strengths.
Well, look at it this way:
Many CR 1's have a +3 to hit, that means for them to have 5% chance to hit, I need an AC of 23.
Now CR 5's range between +10 and +14, so lets split the difference and say +12 for a CR 5. That means I need an AC of 32 to have a 5% chance of being hit.
Now CR 10's we're looking at something closer to a 17, which means I need an AC of 37 to have a 5% miss chance.
CR 15's, about 25, so we need an AC of 45 to maintain that 5% miss.
It just becomes so hard to keep up your AC. I typically don't make any effort to increase my AC beyond 30, I just don't find it cost effective compared to increasing my damage or finding ways to mitigate damage.
10: Ok, The monk gets Stunning Fist 7 levels before any other class and doesn't have to meet the per-requisites and can use it far more often than other classes. They're just NOT going to be better than it than the monk.Well my most recent monk got to 8th level before pulling off a successful stunning fist, but that's by the by. When they get stunning fist, they can make it count more from the fact that they hit more often and deal more damage. That makes it more likely they will force a save on a target for any given stunning fist attempt. Above, the monk only had a 10% chance per round of getting in a successful stun in any given round. If a fighter hits more often and overcomes DR more often, then if they have only two attempts out of stunning fist, and it is only twice as likely to hit as the monk, then in a three-round encounter they will succeed 40% of the time to the monk's 30%.
You seem to have trouble getting through DR and I'm not sure why. My monks always come out of the gate dealing 1d6 + 5 at level one, which is enough to get through DR 5, and by the time you start running into DR 10 magic, you will have an amulet of mighty fists. Yeah there are those DR 10 Silver or Alignment fights, but you just gotta accept that those aren't going to be your fights and do your best with what you got. Hopefully, your GM will not consistently throw things at you that denigrate your class.
He doesn't get armour or shields, has d8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB. He's immune to stuff he'll probably make a save on anyway. He has to pay a feat tax on his dimension door to make it work as intended. His spell resistance blocks friendly buffs. And gosh, he can spend a large chunk of his ki-pool to do as much as drinking a 50gp potion. Gosh. But hey, he can run away faster than anyone except those that can teleport - oh yes, that's most casters by the time he gets +60'.11: Yes, the fighter can TWF better than the monk. The monk gets evasion, he's got Full saves for all 3 saves, +60 move speed, Immunity to Diseases and Poison, Can heal himself by spending Ki Points, Can dimension door, and Gets spell resistance
He gets armor, just as bracers. I don't like the constant parroting of 3/4 BAB because I feel like if you are attacking at a 3/4 BAB more than once or twice an encounter, you're doing something wrong. I'm not really familiar with this feat tax for dimension door that you're talking about, could you elaborate? If it's not in the Core book, I've probably never heard of it. As for the SR, so you lower your SR before combat to get your buffs.
Let me phrase this another way?
You know how many of my monks have been dominated? None. Fighters? All of them (twice resulting in TPKs).
12: Yes, the AoMF is 2.5 more than a singular weapon, but it provides a bonus to BOTH attacks. Therefore, it's disingenuous to compare the cost of one magic weapon to an amulet of mighty fists. The more fair comparison is TWO magic weapons vs one Amulet.
Sure. One SLOTLESS amulet compared to two weapons (slotless) is 10,000gp compared to 4,600gp for +1. Because that is what the slot is worth, let's not forget. Or you could look up above at when the monk gets an amulet levels behind the fighter...
Fact is, the AoMF is a sucky item for the monk. It's way too expensive not just in gold but in the slot it occupies, and the extra cost racks up over levels to keep the monk comofrtably +1 to +2 behind equivelant weapons up to around 18th level, compounding the monk's MAD problems.
To be honest, I don't typically worry too much about the loss of the neck slot, because the only other decent neck slot items are amulet of Natural Armor, which is nice, but not awful to not have, and Necklace of Adaptation, which is awesome, but situational.
So ultimately, here's the thing. I agree with you that Monks trail behind the other classes. But I think that this is largely the fault of power creep from the books that expand upon the core rules. I think the problem is that there have been many new items, feats and spells that allow other classes to now really outshine the monk, while the monk has received little to boost it's power in comparison.
I do NOT however believe that AoMF is the solution to this problem, or that the fact that AoMF costing more than what other classes have to pay is what's holding back the monk.
To put it another way: Complaining about the cost of AoMF as a monk is sort of like complaining that your car gets poor gas mileage as you careen down the highway at 90 miles an hour with no breaks. Your statement is technically true, but you have bigger problems to deal with.
Okay, let’s take a look at Core only fighters and monks for a second. For some strange reason, the fighter is going to concentrate on close-combat weapons (including unarmed strike). Plus, he has the option of using TWF or instead attacking with only his iterative attacks for a higher attack bonus.
We will base both on a 20-point buy. Ability scores for the fighter are as follows: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7. +2 for human in Strength makes it Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7.
5th level Fighter.
BAB: +5
Standard Attack: +12 (1d3+8)
Full Attack: +12 (1d3+8)
Full Attack (TWF): +10/+10 (1d3+8)
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Defense, Iron Will
Weapon Training: Close (+1)
Equipment (10,500 gp): +2 breastplate (4,350 gp), belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), cloak of resistance +1 (1,000 gp); 1,150 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 20 (30’ movement); 21 when Two-Weapon Fighting (flat-footed 18, touch 13)
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +5
Hit Points: 47 (including favored class bonus)
I will build this Monk as Strength based, although it is not my preferred build. Ability scores for the monk are as follows: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7. +2 for human in Strength makes it Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7.
5th level Monk.
BAB: +3
Standard Attack: +9 (1d8+5)
Full Attack: +9 (1d8+5)
Full Attack (TWF): +9/+9 (1d8+5)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility
Equipment (10,500 gp): amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp); belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), cloak of resistance +1 (1,000 gp); ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp); 1,500 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 18 (40’ movement); (flat-footed 15, touch 17)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Hit Points: 46 (including favored class bonus)
The fighter has an average damage of 10 points. The monk has an average damage of 9.5 points. The fighter has an advantage in to-hit rolls in all circumstances, has a higher AC, slightly more hit points, and comparable saves. Movement isn’t that different at this level either.
At early levels, a Strength-based monk can keep up with a Fighter who concentrates on unarmed strikes in attacks and damage (he would be WELL behind even a long-sword wielding fighter, however, must less a great-sword or falchion build).
This will be continued with a look at 10th level characters sometime later today. And I think you will see this is the best level for monk in this comparison (using Core Rules only).
Here is a thought if you are going to compare and unarmed Monk to Fighters and Paladins wielding weapons then perhaps you should also have the monks using weapons.
Concerned about DR as a Monk?
Try the new product special materials formed into "crazy" weapons as a backup.
Worried about Fighter/Paladins doing more damage with WEAPONS?
Try USING A WEAPON WITH YOUR FIST OR PERHAPS EVEN TWO WEAPONS. Then you can't be mad over AOMF.
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The sheer level of contempt you hold for people who want the Monk to actually be good with their unarmed strikes (which truthfully is what the class exists for) is just amazing. But sure, let's just cover the pages where the Monk entries are in our CRB's and pretend it never existed, since apparently the Unarmed Fighter is what we were always supposed to play and never the Monk.
The contempt in which the Monk proponents is held has almost nothing to do with what they are saying, and everything to do with the way they are saying it.
The sheer quantity of venom, sarcasm, whining, and out-and-out lying about the rules posted by many of the monk fanatics, not to mention the continual insults to the developers, does nothing to further their cause. Were I a developer I certainly wouldn't be motivated to put responding to such requests high on my list of priorities, especially since it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that whatever is eventually done will just be met with a farrago of complaints about the inadequacy of the change, and repeated peremptory demands that whatever-the-poster's-pet-idea-may-be is implemented at once.
Except a monk can not flurry with a single weapon. And (at least in my experience) people who play monks whant to be the guy who punches monsters in the face with their bare hands.Here is a thought if you are going to compare and unarmed Monk to Fighters and Paladins wielding weapons then perhaps you should also have the monks using weapons.
Concerned about DR as a Monk?
Try the new product special materials formed into "crazy" weapons as a backup.
Worried about Fighter/Paladins doing more damage with WEAPONS?
Try USING A WEAPON WITH YOUR FIST OR PERHAPS EVEN TWO WEAPONS. Then you can't be mad over AOMF.
I'm sorry you misunderstand. Flurry with a single weapon is completely retarded in my opinion.
I meant this for options as a monk;
1. Using two weapons to flurry and enchanting them just like everyone else. This means the BS DR argument goes away, no more AOMF complaints, and the monk can gain enhancement from weapons to hit more.
Or
2. Use a single weapon along with a unarmed strike to flurry. In this one you use the Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes along with enchanting the weapon as per normal. (Extra bonus for wearing an AOMF that stacks with bonuses from Bodywraps; example +5 Bodywraps with flaming amulet or whatever.)
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Here's a simple one, and the houserule I use in my game. Remove the Ki Strike (Foo) class ability and at the same level as Ki Strike (Magic) give monks an equivalent ability to Arcane Pool using Ki as the consumable and affecting the monk's unarmed strikes (yes, all of them). You can base the list off either the pool list or the Paladin's spirit list. Advancement can follow either track, though since they get it nearer to the Paladin, they should probably be 5th and 1/3 after. At (Lawful) and (Adamantine) allow the monk to add new abilities to the list based on price modifier, replacing an existing ability and also allow them to "retrain" like fighter feats and sorcerer spells on the levels in between (probably like 1 level after the increases so 9, 12, etc).
Elegant. Uses rules from existing classes. Mimics the Sohei's ability (which nobody will ever use, ever) and fixes a lot of kvetching on this forum all at the same time.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Except a monk can not flurry with a single weapon. And (at least in my experience) people who play monks whant to be the guy who punches monsters in the face with their bare hands.Here is a thought if you are going to compare and unarmed Monk to Fighters and Paladins wielding weapons then perhaps you should also have the monks using weapons.
Concerned about DR as a Monk?
Try the new product special materials formed into "crazy" weapons as a backup.
Worried about Fighter/Paladins doing more damage with WEAPONS?
Try USING A WEAPON WITH YOUR FIST OR PERHAPS EVEN TWO WEAPONS. Then you can't be mad over AOMF.
I'm sorry you misunderstand. Flurry with a single weapon is completely retarded in my opinion.
I meant this for options as a monk;
1. Using two weapons to flurry and enchanting them just like everyone else. This means the BS DR argument goes away, no more AOMF complaints, and the monk can gain enhancement from weapons to hit more.
Or
2. Use a single weapon along with a unarmed strike to flurry. In this one you use the Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes along with enchanting the weapon as per normal. (Extra bonus for wearing an AOMF that stacks with bonuses from Bodywraps; example +5 Bodywraps with flaming amulet or whatever.)
OR...
Buy one or more singing bells of striking, available in Ultimate Equipment, on sale now at Paizo.com! #shamelessplug
The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
Ability Scores: Str 20 (22), Dex 15 (17), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7. (8th level bump in Str)
BAB: +10
Standard Attack: +21 (1d3+11; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack: +21/+16 (1d3+11; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack (TWF): +19/+19/+14/+14 (1d3+11; 19-20/x2)
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Defense, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Toughness Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
Weapon Training: Close (+2), Bows (+1)
Equipment (62,000 gp): amulet of mighty fists +1 (5,000 gp), +3 breastplate (9,350 gp), belt of physical might (Str/Dex) +2 (10,000 gp), boots of striding and springing (5,500 gp), cloak of resistance +3 (9,000 gp), gloves of arrow snaring (4,000 gp), ring of force shield (8,500 gp), ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp); 2,650 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 26 (40’ movement); 28 when Two-Weapon Fighting (flat-footed 21, touch 15)
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9
Hit Points: 89 (including favored class bonus)
10th level Monk.
Ability Scores: Str 20 (22), Dex 14 (16), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14 (16), Cha 7. (8th level bump in Str)
BAB: +7
Standard Attack: +15 (1d10+7)
Full Attack: +15/+10 (1d10+7)
Full Attack (TWF): +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+7)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps
Equipment (62,000 gp): amulet of mighty fists +1 (5,000 gp); belt of physical might (Str/Dex) +2 (10,000 gp), bracers of armor +5 (25,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp); ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp); handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp); 4,000 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 26 (60’ movement); (flat-footed 22, touch 21)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +12
Hit Points: 88 (including favored class bonus)
Okay, then. At 10th level, the fighter is hitting for an average of 13 points of damage, while the monk does 12.5, with the same number of attacks (outside of ki or spells). BUT, the fighter has a fairly large (+4 to +6) advantage in hitting and scores criticals twice as often. Fighter has a slight advantage in hit points, while the monk has a similar slight advantage in saves; AC is identical for standard, while the monk has a slight advantage in flat-footed and a larger one in touch. Note: the ring of force shield has activation and deactivation as a free action, so the fighter can TWF with his unarmed strikes and then raise the shield at the end of his turn, taking it down at beginning of his next turn and repeating the cycle.
DPR versus a 24 AC (standard for a CR 10 critter) comes out to 38.61 for the fighter and 27.5625 for the monk due to that difference in attack bonus and critical threat range, a difference (on average) of 11+ points per round. Both have equal problems with DR, bypassing only magic (and the monk can get through lawful, but how often does THAT come up?).
So far, the fighter (Core Rules only, using unarmed strikes) is beating the pants off of the monk in the monk's area of specialization.
This will be continued with a look at 15th level characters sometime later today.
I have to say, looking at those numbers things are right about where I'd want them. I still believe in the mage-killer monk, which means that trading hit vs AC for extra saves and speed is actually logical enough.
(looks like you have the wrong BAB on the monk, btw)
I have to say, looking at those numbers things are right about where I'd want them. I still believe in the mage-killer monk, which means that trading hit vs AC for extra saves and speed is actually logical enough.
(looks like you have the wrong BAB on the monk, btw)
On the 10th level monk? BAB +7, standard attack +7/+2, flurry attack +8/+8/+3/+3. Add +6 for Str, +1 for weapon focus, +1 for the AoMf (+8 total) comes to +15/+10 for standard attack and +16/+16/+11/+11 for flurry).
That is for a pure Strength-based monk build, which just seems so wrong Evil Lincoln. I mean, a monk having more Strength than an Ogre? Does that really seem like a monk to you? In the Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan/Chuck Norris style? Being able to bench press 520 lbs doesn't strike you as . . . odd for a character in that theme?
EDIT: I see it. Didn't affect the final numbers, I just didn't change it from the 5th level for that line entry. Fixed now, thank you.
MA
I have to say, looking at those numbers things are right about where I'd want them. I still believe in the mage-killer monk, which means that trading hit vs AC for extra saves and speed is actually logical enough.
(looks like you have the wrong BAB on the monk, btw)
I agree. I am of the opinion that if a fighter dedicates himself to a style of combat, he should be the best at that style of combat, even to the point of generally beating the pants off of rivals (barring use of Smite, Favored Enemy, etc). This includes unarmed combat (again, only if he is dedicating himself to that). Especially since he is not getting any useful goodies like the monk is getting. Monks get all the ki abilities to get extra attacks/AC, evasion, abundant step, slow fall, etc. Not all of these are useful all the time, but they can be. And the fighter? He gets the feats he needs to specialize in unarmed combat and out-damage the monk without falling behind in saves and whatnot. Seems fair to me.
Way I see it, if you want to be a super throw-down brawler, make a fighter that way. If you want to be a brawler with useful zen-like powers, go monk. I see no problem with that.
I do think that the monk should be able to bypass DR more easily, but I think the best way to implement it may be through ki strikes.
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The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...
Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
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The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
He's going Core-only; the Monk could have gotten IC at 10th *correction*, and Wing/Stomp are out. I'm still of the opinion that greater trip is a better usage than some of the feats in there though that would push the requisite INT to 13 since flowing monk is out of the question.
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He's going Core-only; the Monk could have gotten IC at 10th *correction*, and Wing/Stomp are out. I'm still of the opinion that greater trip is a better usage than some of the feats in there.The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
Ah, so no Styles then
But still: no Improved Critical on Monk (while the Fighter has it!). It's a no-brainer DPR enhancer there.
The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
Unless the monk spends his 10th level bonus feat on Improved Critical, he doesn't have the BAB to qualify for it until 11th level. However, he instead took Improved Trip (6th) and Improved Disarm (10th). Even so, Improved critical would only increase DPR to 28.875, just about 10 below the fighter.
MA