Goblin Squad Member
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-snip-Enforcing language appropriate(non-offensive) and 'real'(actually looks like a name) names would be far enough.
I suspect that is the right balance.
On the subject of languages, will there be Language Skills to train up? Which might be usable on Mobs eg to negotiate with them (avoid a fight) and or "trade" with them? Some advantage to learning some tongues of these creatures eg "persuade" them to attack someone -> provide "marker on map" --> "go kill!" Here's half a down payment (of human ears, coins etc) :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never had any of my accounts hacked because I can follow a few very simple guidelines but I guess this is great for those that can't.
It's good to hear that there won't be the false security of a profanity filter but instead the team aims for a good community.
And I agree that you don't need to specify "good community" much more because we all know whats ok and what isn't and the rest just claims not to in order to get away with crap.
Finally I think we can all agree that the so called right of free speech doesn't exist anywhere on the world and that's just fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan, I don't know nearly as much about this stuff as you do, so please don't take this as impertinence. It's just that I believe a lot of players will expect a filter, and will be upset the first time they see "the f-word" in clear text. I would imagine the cost of a client-side filter for an updated list of The Seven Dirty Words is significantly less than the cost of fielding calls from angry customers.
[Edit] The filter doesn't have to be good or proof against gaming, it would just need to stop the blatant cases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rather than a filter, a 'net' that, when a player uses a word or phrase a certain amount of times might flag the account with a green note. The green note alerts the Staff that this account is using certain words, but there's been no 'offenses' pinned to the account by other players.
An automated mail is sent to the character that the Mods have noticed they have been using the words/phrases, and could they explain why?
Players may or may not choose to respond. I know if I get the email, and it's authentic, I'll certainly respond. If there is a problem with something I am doing, I most definitely want to jump on it right away, and I think most Gamers feel the same.
It could simply be a regional difference. Americans think nothing of dropping the Almighty F-Bomb, but if you say 'Bugger', you're the most uncouth bastard in the land. Australians, by contrast, use 'Bugger' as a noun, an adjective, a pro-noun, an insult and even as a term of endearment, but the F-Bomb is a foul insult and not uttered in polite conversation or in the presence of the fairer sex.
Little things like this, that the 'Net' will allow Goblinworks Staff to check up on and remind players to moderate themselves.
And if that doesn't work, well, more punitive measures will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is a chat filter, it should be default OFF, and be a very basic substitution filter for a few words, something a undergrad CS student could code quickly. Not some crazy complex word analyzer to protect the delicate sensibilities of sheltered personalities and 7 year olds.
On the subject of languages in the game, SWG had a fun system, where you started with your native language, and 'basic' comprehension. If people weren't talking in 'basic' you had to know their language, otherwise you saw generated gibberish, unless you decoded the language substitution algorithm. Some species could not communicate in basic(biological limitations), so they would require a translator present that could understand them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of Authenticators, it really helps add at least a bit more security. People will still get hacked by their own actions of course but it can help a bit.
However, please do not assume that your player base has access to any kind of special phone software. Your game shouldn't have an additional service charge of owning a particular type of cellphone. A stand alone device (perhaps included with a retail version of the game?) would be far more preferable.
I approve of strong naming policy enforcement and keeping the public channels clear. It's your sandbox after all so I can respect it. Do try to keep the banned words list relevant for the geographic region that we're in though. It gets annoying to have words come up banned because they mean something else in say Germany. If I'm role-playing I would enjoy being able to cuss when it was appropriate though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is a chat filter, it should be default OFF, and be a very basic substitution filter for a few words, something a undergrad CS student could code quickly.
I totally agree on the complexity, but not on the default. And it's not because I'm a prude - the very first thing I do when I realize the profanity filter is on is go in and turn it off. But if you're going to have a profanity filter at all, it should default to on - the whole point being to avoid shocking the people who already have a built-in expectation that there will be a profanity filter turned on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names.That's generally true. I was mostly talking about players (like myself!) who have a stable of names that are appropriate for a generic fantasy setting, and mostly arguing against the idea that "Nihimon isn't an acceptable name for an Elf in Golarion because Elf names should always end in one of these 64 suffixes".
I don't think you have to worry about that because Golarion does not get that specific about names. As a side note, I believe the setting itself would be of a higher quality if naming conventions were attended to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To the best of my knowledge, their isn't a hard lexicon of names in Pathfinder, and nor is there any seriously defined language derivatives for Naming conventions. I think when they say NO BAD NAMES (aside from the obviously offensive stuff), they mean stuff like "IARPALADIN" and "TruckDriverRailgun". If Nihimon isn't a registered IP somewhere, then i suspect you'll be able to use it. I'd also expect to be able to use something like Gruffling as well. By them telling us there's a hard list of Bad Names, doesn't actually mean there's a hard list of Good names. Anything we type in will be provisional, and as long as it isn't totally off genre, offensive, or IP-protected, i'd expect it to be approved.What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names.That's generally true. I was mostly talking about players (like myself!) who have a stable of names that are appropriate for a generic fantasy setting, and mostly arguing against the idea that "Nihimon isn't an acceptable name for an Elf in Golarion because Elf names should always end in one of these 64 suffixes".
I expect this is probably the case as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats,
This is an interesting subject. Personaly I only have access to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook....so I'm not really sure what/if any particular races(peoples) have as far as linguistic rules for naming in Golarion.
Like Nihimon, I wouldn't like to see such linguistic naming conventions enforced, but it would be cool if they were suggested for players seeking something setting appropriate. I also think it would be cool if PFO provided some information as well as possibly some greater background information on the setting for those of us not quite as familiar with it (though I'm trying to get more familiar on my own).
I know Paizo along with many fans's maintain Wiki's of information about the setting... but I think it would be cool if the game either condenced or pointed players in the right direction (links) for the most relevant info in regards character generation.
One of the things I did like about LOTRO is that in the character generator it gave you some suggestions about naming conventions for different people groups....and it actualy created variance charts that where specific to the background (ethinic group) you chose in terms of hair, skin, eye color. They weren't crazily restrictive in that you could generaly get any reasonable look you wanted....but the chart's did show you (visualy) what were the most common variations within range. It was pretty cool.
Of course, Tolkien being a linquist by trade went pretty insane with the background linquistics for his setting, creating several fully functional languages.....so Golarion might not have the same level of linguistic detail.
I did have alot of fun though...perusing Saxon or Old English dictionaries for appropriate sounding names for my Rohirric character(s). For my main (from a RP standpoint) I had actualy gotten to the point where I had named several of my weapons, my mount, my class legendary item.... and probably a couple other things. Again not really neccessary or functional in any regard..but still fun.
I applaud you for making the effort to learn of the canon. Keep at it!! The setting is what it is all about as far as I am concerned, everything else is just numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is a chat filter, it should be default OFF, and be a very basic substitution filter for a few words, something a undergrad CS student could code quickly. Not some crazy complex word analyzer to protect the delicate sensibilities of sheltered personalities and 7 year olds.
On the subject of languages in the game, SWG had a fun system, where you started with your native language, and 'basic' comprehension. If people weren't talking in 'basic' you had to know their language, otherwise you saw generated gibberish, unless you decoded the language substitution algorithm. Some species could not communicate in basic(biological limitations), so they would require a translator present that could understand them.
I did not know that: Yet again tales of SWG surprise and delight, no wonder players froth over it's demise so much.
I think language has potentially large role to play. Can't remember who I was reading now (S.Pinker's The Blank Slate or S.Huntington's Clash Of Civilizations) but 3 key out-group distinctions were: Race, Religion & Language. Maybe in a mmorpg language cannot be used literally but as a means of being necessary skill for certain actions or interactions with different races (& alignment indicators) might be interesting skill system on the diplomacy/politics and trade side?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names. What is described in the blog seems a fair balance between the in-character atmosphere and pet names. Personally, I would be happy to give up pet names if that meant we never had to see crap OOC names.I don't think it would be very wise for GW to enforce such naming conventions, and 'appropriate to the setting' is largely up to personal opinion.
I could not disagree with you more. This whole "personal opinion" argument always seems to me to be used to allow for lazy gamers, who cannot be bothered for a couple minutes to simply look at some of the names that are part of the canon. A quick glance at the names used in the Pathfinder universe would give you a fairly definite idea of what is appropriate and what isn't that is a far cry from simply personal opinion.
Having a standard with regards to PC names, is simply one step in an overall strategy to promote a quality IC environment. Consider this, if Paizo were to release a module, set in Golarion that had Luke Skywalker, IAMGOD, and Merisiel running around together. They would be laughed out of the RPG business. We, the gamers, would hate it. So, why would we want that for this product?
Enforcing language appropriate(non-offensive) and 'real'(actually looks like a name) names would be far enough. I would bet limiting name conventions too much will aggrivate more potential players than those who want RP all the time and never see an 'Immersion breaking'(again this is largely up to personal opinion) name. I don't want to see this game turning into a hardcore RP centered game, because I want to see a large audience participate in this game, if Ryan really wants to do for sandbox MMO's what WoW did to themeparks, his target should be larger, and the vast majority of the MMO crowd does not partake in RP. Right now PFO's vocal following is mostly RP players, there are only a few of us that like the game because of the mechanics and have no inkling to RP, this ratio will most likely shift directions once the game is in the alpha-beta stages and is receiving more press.
The only names that should be changed after creation re the obvious ones, fringe names should be default to the player, a name report should also not reach the eyes of a moderator until there are multiple reports on that player(a few dozen at least). Doing otherwise would be a waste of money and forcing multiple reports ensures that the name is widely regarded as out of place. Something like a name that is a reference to a pop-culture icon, but sounds like it belongs in the setting should also be allowed, like the 3 stooges in Diablo 3.
In a certain sense I think we are on the same page, but instead of wanting to dilute the quality, I would like to see better quality. We are already breaking new ground with this product, why not expect a higher standard of ICness. How about we show non-RPers how interesting and cool it can be when you become immersed in an IC environment? There are all sorts of interesting ways GW and the community can do this, and that's really what we should be talking about as opposing to just giving up to the lowest common denominator.
I want to see quality. Don't you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is no big deal. Just treat people online the way you would like to be treated...Amen, brother.
All the harping really confuses me. It's like going over to play poker at a new buddy's house and trying to get him to lay out exactly what behavior is inappropriate with his thirteen year old daughter.
Nihimon, the reason we don't need help in that kind of situation is because we share cultural knowledge--you and I "know" how to act around a 13 year old girl because we are immersed in a particular values hierarchy, time and place. In different cultures we might very well need explicit instruction on some parts, because of the locality of culture. And of course some things would be universal ("Every person is in certain aspects like all other people. Like some other people. Like no other person" -Kluckholn).
There is existing culture in gaming, and GW aims to change that culture--I think that's both threatening and challenging to some people. And the "just don't be a jerk" response isn't going to help everyone, because what constitutes being a jerk or a nice person is cultural and contextual. There are cultural contexts where very crude, earthy language and humor are sanctioned, and others where they are not.
I'm very interested in how this attempt to explicitly change culture will work--particularly this strategy of using public sphere/private sphere divisions as a relief valve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What will be the stance on in-game/in-setting adult topics? Will my character's visit to a temple of Calistria leave me bored? Is Nocticula going to sit out? Paizo's done great work with having the occasional gay couples in their Adventure Paths - will something like that exist in the game?
I'm all good and well with rules and things, but I like Pathfinder and the setting of Golarion because it is gritty and mature. When I play a Pathfinder MMO, I don't want to suddenly end up with Gritty Lite(tm).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What will be the stance on in-game/in-setting adult topics? Will my character's visit to a temple of Calistria leave me bored? Is Nocticula going to sit out? Paizo's done great work with having the occasional gay couples in their Adventure Paths - will something like that exist in the game?
I'm all good and well with rules and things, but I like Pathfinder and the setting of Golarion because it is gritty and mature. When I play a Pathfinder MMO, I don't want to suddenly end up with Gritty Lite(tm).
Vic Wertz said:
It's very simply not open to negotiation—if you're looking for a game with adult content, Pathfinder Online will not be the game for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, the reason we don't need help in that kind of situation is because we share cultural knowledge--you and I "know" how to act around a 13 year old girl...
That's true enough, but my point still stands. Once I tell the new guy "Don't hit on my daughter", I don't want to have to debate the finer points of whether a pinch on the butt is off limits but a pat on the butt is okay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Mbando - The whole "don't be a jerk" rule not working is exactly what I was trying to get at before hand. American culture is somewhat desensitized to violence, while European culture is somewhat desensitized to nudity and sex. All the more reason for less than explicit rules. You'll never fine tune policy to be a perfect medium between two cultures.
@Ryan - While profanity can be somewhat immersion breaking, I don't think a filter is necessary. Not nearly as important as the slurs policy and the character name policy.
@Nihimon - Actually, I had to have a talk with my sons a while back. I had caught them talking trash on XBox Live. Come to find out, they were imitating me... and combining that with words they had picked up from their friends. Because there is this collective culture of acceptance, there is no clear moral/ethical code for the youngest generation of gamers. I had to explain why telling someone that you were going to whip them like their daddy should have was less severe than say telling someone you were going to make them perform oral sex on you. It was one of those "parent" talks that was a little uncomfortable and had me taking a step back and reevaluating my own behavior. In the end, my kids learned what was acceptable and what wasn't... but I still have to be a parent and monitor them. The point is, they didn't know and because that moral measuring stick was never in place for them, I did have to spell it out and explain it in detail. That's something we are all going to have to do from time to time if we want things to change.
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Goblin Squad Member
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-snip-A quick glance at the names used in the Pathfinder universe would give you a fairly definite idea of what is appropriate and what isn't that is a far cry from simply personal opinion.
Having a standard with regards to PC names, is simply one step in an overall strategy to promote a quality IC environment. Consider this, if Paizo were to release a module, set in Golarion that had Luke Skywalker, IAMGOD, and Merisiel running around together. They would be laughed out of the RPG business. We, the gamers, would hate it. So, why would we want that for this product? [...]
but instead of wanting to dilute the quality, I would like to see better quality. We are already breaking new ground with this product, why not expect a higher standard of ICness. How about we show non-RPers how interesting and cool it can be when you become immersed in an IC environment? There are all sorts of interesting ways GW and the community can do this, and that's really what we should be talking about as opposing to just giving up to the lowest common denominator.
I want to see quality. Don't you?
This is what I was thinking: Apart from delimiting bad names, there's the vector towards enhancing the atmosphere cumulatively, with some details such as a framework of names (& therefore the aesthetics of language play a role (hopefully a functional role can be added too)) add up to give quality those various boosts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Obakararuir, I hear you. I feel like people are side-stepping the point I'm making, but I realize that's almost certainly because I'm not making it well. I've mentioned before that these are the first forums I've been extremely active on, and I've learned a lot about how not to be a forum-jerk in the last 9 months (and I'm sure I still have some more learning to do). So, I'm going to accept that I'm not making sense, and stop repeating myself. You and Mbando are both absolutely right in what you're saying. But I also see the value in Ryan's decision not to try to lay out concrete rules. The ultimate truth is that players who are trying not to be jerks are not likely to end up being punished.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really not a big culture change for me. Maybe because I'm of a slightly older generation then some of our gamers....but my parents raised me on the principle of what was appropriate language to use in "polite company".
It's something that becomes ingrained into you, if you were raised that way.
I usualy swear like a fishmonger in front of my close (male)buddies but as soon as one of the wives or another female enters the room, the language switches automaticaly. It's so ingrained that I actualy wasn't even conscious of it. I only realized it one day a couple years back when my wife started kidding me about never using foul language. I was surprised and responded to her that I swear alot. She laughed and told me that in the entire time we've been married she could count on one hand the number of times she heard me use a swear word. It wasn't until then that I realized that I simply don't swear in front of my wife, even in private, even when she's swearing, even when we are fighting.
It actualy takes a conscious effort for me to use foul language in mixed company...and I feel very uncomfortable doing so. It's probably pretty sexist in it's own right, but when you are raised that way it's something that just becomes ingrained into you.
What is "good" is defined by Golarion, so if a person's pet name isn't appropriate for Golarion, then they will need to change names. What is described in the blog seems a fair balance between the in-character atmosphere and pet names. Personally, I would be happy to give up pet names if that meant we never had to see crap OOC names.I don't think it would be very wise for GW to enforce such naming conventions, and 'appropriate to the setting' is largely up to personal opinion.
Enforcing language appropriate(non-offensive) and 'real'(actually looks like a name) names would be far enough. I would bet limiting name conventions too much will aggrivate more potential players than those who want RP all the time and never see an 'Immersion breaking'(again this is largely up to personal opinion) name. I don't want to see this game turning into a hardcore RP centered game, because I want to see a large audience participate in this game, if Ryan really wants to do for sandbox MMO's what WoW did to themeparks, his target should be larger, and the vast majority of the MMO crowd does not partake in RP. Right now PFO's vocal following is mostly RP players, there are only a few of us that like the game because of the mechanics and have no inkling to RP, this ratio will most likely shift directions once the game is in the alpha-beta stages and is receiving more press.
The only names that should be changed after creation are the obvious ones, fringe names should be default to the player, a name report should also not reach the eyes of a moderator until there are multiple reports on that player(a few dozen at least). Doing otherwise would be a waste of money and forcing multiple reports ensures that the name is widely regarded as out of place. Something like a name that is a reference to a pop-culture icon, but sounds like it belongs in the setting should also be allowed, like the 3 stooges in Diablo 3.
I think this post touches on some very important points and didn't get enough attention. I, too, think too strict enforcement of naming conventions will just alienate a wider audience of players and hamper PFO's ability to grow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there actually is a target of a wider audience for this game. Earlier blog posts it seems that the plan was to slowly grow the game and actually limit new subscriptions per month. No idea what the status on that plan is presently but not attempting to be "the next WoW" is a good idea.
Making a game that's fun for your target audience and yourselves will be more rewarding and help incomes a lot more then making some mediocre for everyone game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Background and culture play a huge role in what is 'acceptable' which is why I feel Ryan is taking the best course of action and ignoring it, otherwise you end up creating a dull environment. Take for instance the episode of southpark where they try and make the 'Christmas play' non-offensive to everyone, it turns into a black and white dance where everyone is chanting 'happy happy happy'
@Nihimon, I see your point, but don't agree. I hate censorship, and I hate people who cry to the FCC, and I hate the FCC. I've yet to meet a person that can't identify every bleep/blank said on TV and Radio. Profanity filters are for the supper naive, children that have yet to hear the word, the second you know the word, is the same second you can identify it behind censors. Putting up a censor really does nothing, when your mind sees **** or @#$%$ you immediately think of everything it could be until you figure out the word, instead of the one word it is. You end up subjecting your self to more 'swearing' than with no censor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon, I know where you're coming from, there will be people that want a censor on chat, they will be annoyed, they probably won't leave, and there will be even more people that will be annoyed if they have to go turn off a censor. People will be annoyed no matter what Ryan does with every aspect of the game, every choice is a 'lesser of two evils' in this case I feel Ryan is making the right decision, filtering chat will annoy more people than those who are annoyed by swearing. And the worst offenders are not stopped by a chat filter, so why bother?
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Goblin Squad Member
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People will be annoyed no matter what Ryan does with every aspect of the game, every choice is a 'lesser of two evils'
Truer words were never spoken. When you've got a multicultural fan base that are die-hard loyalists, that's kind of the predicament you find yourself in.
Look at Star Wars. For years people wanted more. Some didn't, some were content with novels, but some wanted more movies. At that point George Lucas was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't from an atleast semi caring IP holder. He did and made lots of money and half of everyone hated it. Personally, I loved all the movies. Part 1 was kind of kidsy, but you were making a movie about a kid, it's hard not to be kidsy.
But yes, Pathfinder Online is more and more finding itself in "lesser of two evils" water. Just wait until they announce races and classes. And then again when they announce which abilities don't translate into the game... and at the same time, the way they are executed in the game.
I'm sure Ryan and crew take us all with a grain or two of salt.
Psst.... Ryan.... include the ninja! =)
Could we please, have ability to opt out of the authenticator? I don't care if the e-mail service is quick, I don't want to bother with entering my e-mail just to play and I think there will be more people who share that sentiment.
If you really want to enforce protections on all players make a virtual keyboard for those who decide to check "no authenticator" option while creating the account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm fine with authenticators, just as long as the only option isn't smart-phone apps. Alot of us don't have or want smartphones...I really don't want a phone that can get a virus or has to reboot or be patched.... I just want something that lets me talk to another person when I dail a number. So I'll second the request for making physical devices or other means availble. I don't mind paying whatever the cost is for a physical device....I'm sure as heck not going to change what I use for a phone just because of a game.
@Drejk - sure, but you'll opt-in to a pay-for-service help desk. Want to buy an annual Service Contract or just pay by the incident?
When I create an account for a game I always do it with conviction that, in case of the account being hacked by my own stupidity I will leave it in shame, creating a new account if the game allows it and my sorrow haven't killed interest in the game. Not happened yet (i.e. hacking, leaving the game or loss of interest in the game are different matter).
One of the problems with mandatory authentication is that I often log multiple times per day for short time. Sometimes reaching as much as 10-15 loggings in. Sending an sms each time? That's at least 7-10 dollars for messages alone, assuming no payment beyond what my operator charge me for sms to USA. Other methods? Still too much chore for something that should be fun. I could juggle diskettes in older times, but it was long ago.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great info, thank you very much for sharing all the good stuff. Hearing all the good work you guys are putting in makes me so psyched I helped with the Kickstarter!
I have one concern about the 'naming' problem -- is it possible to code the game in such a way that the unique ID on an character is generated with BOTH the character's name and the account's name, and only show the character's name ingame?
One of the most frustrating things that I see over and over again in MMOs is that if you don't claim a name at second one of hour one of day one of launch, or even pre-launch, the liklihood of getting the name you want can diminish greatly. This also impacts your ability to create alts with specific name or naming scheme at a later date. This is something that Guild Wars 2 is suffering from especially since all names must be unique across *all* servers.
It seems to me that by doing this you could have more than one person with a given name -- like all the people you know named Bob or John. It's always seemed to me like a miss from the industry, and something that sems pretty simple to address (at least in theory).
Thanks for listening, and I hope it at least makes it to the consideration phase. I sure don't want to see a whole bunch of Drizzts running around, but I'd also sure like to be able to play Craddok if I decide to roll an alt 3 months after release.
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It could simply be a regional difference. Americans think nothing of dropping the Almighty F-Bomb, but if you say 'Bugger', you're the most uncouth bastard in the land. Australians, by contrast, use 'Bugger' as a noun, an adjective, a pro-noun, an insult and even as a term of endearment, but the F-Bomb is a foul insult and not uttered in polite conversation or in the presence of the fairer sex.
Please don't act like you know a country's people. In America, if you are in public, you ARE going to get looks and get in trouble if you drop the F-Bomb (I saw someone drop the f-bomb on a family at the public pool, and they were arrested.) If someone did the F-Bomb to me, I am going to take a HUGE offense to it. If you're a private setting with people you know and swear commonly around, not so much. Also, I've heard VERY little people (if any at all) say bugger, and have everyone react hugely to it.
It's online you find the most F-bombs, but frankly, those people could be anywhere in the world. And those in America are NOT a good representation of the average American.