I think it's 15 point buy. Although, some people use different methods.
James Jacobs has said that AP's are built for a party of four using 15-point buy. If you do a quick search on the forums, you should be able to find the post.
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Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
To add to that:
Players' skills, DM/GM's skills, characters optimization, party optimization, party's size, Players' luck, DM/GM's luck, etc...
There are many variables that can affect the decision/need of the point buy.
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Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
To add to that:
Players' skills, DM/GM's skills, characters optimization, party optimization, party's size, Players' luck, DM/GM's luck, etc...
There are many variables that can affect the decision/need of the point buy.
Which, conversely, means that your game won't be ruined alone by picking the "wrong" point buy.
Is there also an assumption that there will be a diverse set of characters such as arcane/divine/skills/melee?
I would also guess that the game assumes most of the party will be Good or at least Neutral?
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Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
That's it! I'm declaring a 5 point buy in my Jade Regent game! :D Stupid experienced players that work together...
::mutter::
Is there also an assumption that there will be a diverse set of characters such as arcane/divine/skills/melee?
I would also guess that the game assumes most of the party will be Good or at least Neutral?
Pretty much included in "party optimization".
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Is there also an assumption that there will be a diverse set of characters such as arcane/divine/skills/melee?
I would also guess that the game assumes most of the party will be Good or at least Neutral?
... and this one depends on the AP; some work best for very good parties, some (Kingmaker, Skulls & Shackles) work fine with whatever.
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Just finished Carrion Crown last night with a group made using 15 point buy. It's very doable. We only had one character death in the entire AP (not counting last minute breath of life saves). We're a group that's played together quite a bit and have 4-30 years of gaming experience each.
We had used 20 on our playthroughs of Rise of the Runelords and Serpent's Skull, and that works fine too. Now that I've seen 15 used I like it though - and I was a player, not the GM.
It really depends on your players. You want the players to have fun, not be miserable because they feel "gimped" on their stats. OTOH, if they are stomping over every encounter, maybe they don't "need" the high stats as much as they think they do.
Also depends on: 1) Do the DM/GM allow stat dumping (ability scores below 10 before adjustment)? and 2)Do you use the Pathfinder base array (6 "10") or 3.5 base array (5 "10" and an "8")?
in either (and/or both) case, 15 PB might not be enough.
I intend to run Carrion crown for some friends, but some of them have only played 3.5 before and others haven't played any pnp RPGs. I'm planning on giving them 25 points and if they breeze through the early encounters buff the enemies. Has anyone tried something like that for newbie players?
I'm currently running CoT for a group of five players, three of which are RPG (and Pathfinder) newbies. I've set my mind on a 4d6-drop-lowest method, and some characters ended up with really high scores because they were lucky. On the other hand, I gave them the choice with a 20-pt buy and they all chose to roll. So far in the campaign (starting adventure 3 tomorrow), no one has died, though there has been several cases of using 2 hero point to "cheat death". They're not overpowered, and enjoy their playtime, which is the most important thing for me.
Bottom line is, I think every GM has to find the right spot according to the group of players he has. I know that my other group (five 40 year-old RPG veterans playing RotRL AE) has an easy time with a 20-pt buy, so I beef up some fights here and there. Next AP, I know I'm going to allow them a 15-pt buy because I know they can still perform very well (and will enjoy the challenge) with it.
I intend to run Carrion crown for some friends, but some of them have only played 3.5 before and others haven't played any pnp RPGs. I'm planning on giving them 25 points and if they breeze through the early encounters buff the enemies. Has anyone tried something like that for newbie players?
I did something like that, started them with 25 then once I felt like they got the hang of it I just bumped enemy HP per Hit Die by 1, then, bumped whatever their "primary" attack method is by 2. STR = Attk + DMG, DEX = Attk (if finesse or ranged) + AC, Caster = Spell Save DCs + Concentration Checks.
Quick and easy.
I usually run 20 point buy now, do the same thing for "big" encounters, but only bump their HP per hit die and primary attack by 1 (and usually leave enemies that are clearly intended to be cannon fodder anyway as is).
Actually, should I give them hero points? I just gave them 25 point-buy and one trait, that should be enough... I have played only once with hero points and half of the time I forgot we ever had them.
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Actually, should I give them hero points? I just gave them 25 point-buy and one trait, that should be enough... I have played only once with hero points and half of the time I forgot we ever had them.
The thing with hero points that they're too few. You only get one per level and auto stabilize is too costly at 2 points. As result people horde onto hero points.
If you want to see more use then increase the amount you get and have them refresh each level.
Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
Any recommended changes if I've got a group of experienced players who balked at 15 point buy and will be using 20 points? Should I just double the number of goblins?
Any recommended changes if I've got a group of experienced players who balked at 15 point buy and will be using 20 points? Should I just double the number of goblins?Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
Increase mooks by half, give important enemies the advanced simple template (but only boost the AC by 2).
Any recommended changes if I've got a group of experienced players who balked at 15 point buy and will be using 20 points? Should I just double the number of goblins?Yup; the AP assumption is 15 point buy, 4 characters.
Frankly, though... player skill is going to have a bigger impact. If you have inexperienced players or even just a group who's never played before, you could probably go up to 20 point or even 5 or 6 players without adjusting a thing. If your players are VERY experienced or have gamed together a lot, the reverse holds true.
Actually, the difference between a 20pt and a 15pt buy isn't that much. I might suggest making no modifications.
I use 20 point buy personally.
Since we've converted to Pathfinder, we've been using 20 point buys because that was what the PF Society Guide used. It was causing me some questions, though.
Glad to read that 15 point buy is the default and that 20 point buys don't hurt things.
Standard 15 point buy all the way. No issues.