Friend of mine asked me to come up with a sneaky mage character build for him that uses a knife, so I've started throwing together an arcane trickster.
Current idea I've got is an Elf Magus (Spire Defender) 7 / Rogue (Knife Master) 3 / Arcane Trickster 10, with the usual magical knack and magical lineage (shocking grasp) traits.
Since elf seems good stat-wise for the whole combo, spire defender gets exotic weapon proficiency in a disarm or trip weapon (the swordbreaker dagger, specifically) as well as a free dodge and combat expertise feat with little to no cost to the class--and is usually elf-bent in the description, so it meshes rather well.
Rogue levels are knife master for obvious knife-y shenanigans--though this raises the question of the archetype's sneak attack supplement being viable to meet AT's prereqs, and counting towards the SA increases gained therein.
Arcane Trickster seemed a natural choice for the request.
Edit: Spellblade archetype doesn't have any conflicts with Spire Defender, and fits the knife theme really well, but I'm not sure about giving up spellstrike.
Actually, concerning arcane trickster and magus: if you sneak attack someone and use a spellstrike, can you use the surprise spell to add SA to the spell's damage as well as the normal sneak attack from the weapon strike, since both are separate damage sources (I think)?
Anyone got any stat spreads/arcana/rogue talent/feat/equipment advice?
On the other topic in the subject line, is there a list of all the class-bent items (ones that add to a specific class feature), such as:
-silver smite bracelet/bracer of the avenging knight
-monk's robe
-witch's robe/dress/whatever it's called
-(the something) of ki serenity
-phylactery of positive/negative channeling
-the 'boon companion' feat
I'm not sure on the proper etiquette for bumping a thread, but yeah: anything? anything at all? or have I chosen a slow time of day to post this thread?
Generally things are pretty slow on the boards, since it's only early morning in the U.S.
I believe if you sneak-attack spellstrike, you would get the sneak attack damage twice.
Knife Master still possesses sneak attack, so that works for getting in.
You should create a separate thread for your class-bent options discussion. Threads are cheap, make a reasonable number!
At one point, I made this magus archetype called the "spellassin". Horrible name, but it's meant as a single class entry into arcane trickster. It does give up spellstrike, but you get some nice stuff. It was playtested for a month and a half, and worked out fine. Loss of spellstrike means a lot :)
Generally things are pretty slow on the boards, since it's only early morning in the U.S.
I believe if you sneak-attack spellstrike, you would get the sneak attack damage twice.
Knife Master still possesses sneak attack, so that works for getting in.
You should create a separate thread for your class-bent options discussion. Threads are cheap, make a reasonable number!
At one point, I made this magus archetype called the "spellassin". Horrible name, but it's meant as a single class entry into arcane trickster. It does give up spellstrike, but you get some nice stuff. It was playtested for a month and a half, and worked out fine. Loss of spellstrike means a lot :)
I gotcha. I'll also grab the second post and make a new topic out of it.
Looking that archetype of yours over, I gotta say it's pretty cool. I'll tell my friend to run it by the DM, since that seems pretty much perfect for what he wanted.
Yes I do have some advice/discussion! However I'll point you to this thread (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz67l4?Strange-MagusRogueTrickster-idea-minor-he lp#6) where I wrote down most of my ideas.
If you find something there you find interesting let me know, I've advanced a bit more on those ideas. (PS not everything is correct there, i.e. cant use elven curved blade 1 handed, but a katana works fine)
Things to consider when multiclassing a Magus:
Level 4: Spell Recall / Perfect Strike (in case of Kensai)
Level 5: Your + to weapon bumps to +2, can you "Keen"
Level 6: Extra Magus arcana + Magus Arcana (1/6 per level) from preffered class if appropriate (2 arcanas..you could talk with the DM to have ATrickster give you this per level instead)
Level 7: Medium Armor (no evasion for rogue :() Int to dex in case of Kensai, 3rd level spells.
To be honest, I think level 5 is the most "optimal" due to the Keen thing. Level 6 if your DM wouldnt be flexible with preffered class bonus.
Rogue:
I would pick a Ninja as the rogue class though. 1 ki for an extra attack.
Offensive Defense might be a decent Rogue Talent at later levels.
Traits:
Magical Knack (+cl!)
Two World Magic (Add "Brand" to your cantrips, free Spellstrikes)
Magical Lineage (-1 metamagic requirement for 1 spell..Shocking Grasp)
Wayang Spellhunter (Check source for allowing.)
note: there is a feat to take 2 extra traits. Worth it in this case Id say
Feats:
Heighten Spell, Prefered Spell, Spell Perfection..
Armour:
If you pick Kensai you could still wear armour with a feat "arcane armour training -10% arcane failure" and making it of mithril (another 10% off arcane failure). Some armour enchantments are pretty good.
I personally was making a Strenth/Int variant, however a Dex/Int makes more sense (both kensai and spire dude dont wear armour).
Kensai adds Int to AC as well as Dex. As always, the Dervish Dance thing comes up - personally I preffer more unique things :)
Weapons:
Kensai gives you WF with any weapon. Katana has good dice damage and perfect crit multiplier, can be used 1 or 2 handed.
Ninja gives proefficiency with Katanas (1d8 18-20 x2 if i remember)and some fun weapons. Make it Keen with Arcane thingimigigs.
----Hope that helped some or made you think a bit :)
Also if you've got high init and you've got a few Sneak Dmg dice and a knife master, look at:
Underhanded (rogue talent)
....and think about the kensai level 4 perfect strike together with that.
Another good rogue arch with this combo is Bandit.
@errant mercenary: (on traits) I'd never heard of wayang spellhunter and two world magic, I'll definitely have to keep those in mind.
(on armor) actually the spire defender CAN wear armor, provided they gain it from an outside source (like, say, multiclassing) and light armor works near-if-not-perfectly with the abilities of the classes involved, other than ASF, which as you said, can be mitigated with arcane armor training/mithral/the twilight enchant form 3.5 (with DM's approval of course).
(on feats) heighten spell? I could see increasing the DCs and such on spells could definitely be useful, especially since you can choose how big to make it. preferred spell and spell perfection definitely crossed my mind as I was thinking of this.
(on rogue talents) it'd definitely help survival after the initial surprise attack, though I've heard good things about grabbing the ninja talent Pressure Points as well. Edit: underhanded talent. wow. just wow.
(on classes) while I probably won't take ninja (mostly because knife master goes so perfectly with the request), I'm taking a look at bandit now. shifting the levels to magus (spire defender or kensai) 6 / rogue (knife master/bandit) 4 to grab ambush does seem pretty sweet, since losing out on knowledge pool can be dealt with somewhat with pearls of power, and losing out on gaining medium armor doesn't matter much with this build.
(on underhanded + true strike) ooh that's tempting. only issue i can raise is losing out on ASF-less light armor, which doesn't matter all that much when you get your INT to AC anyway. I can just grab AAT and wear mithral parade armor or something. and losing out on the free dodge and combat expertise feats from spire defender.
gotta watch out to use spells without somatic components, or else gotta eat your swift action--until you hit 17-20 to silent/still them for free (a few times/day, anyway).
Since the overall benefits seem to be leaning towards Kensai, I think I'll go with that. Which raises the question: what's the best knife (for knife master)? Because I dont think a wakazashi counts.
Edit: I'm going to guess kukri, since it has the best crit range.
also, is there a feat to get an extra rogue talent? and what are good dex melee feats (is piranha strike worth it, etc.)?
(DISREGARD THE ABOVE POST RELATING TO EVERYTHING EXCEPT DEX MELEE FEATS, I'M DUMB)
also, on arcane trickster compatibility: if I were to use a surprise spell for say, acid arrow, would it add d6 or d4 for the sneak attack?
Sneak Stab (Ex)
"A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.
This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability."
Emphasis mine. Is a spell a weapon? I mean, you can take weapon focus (ray), but is a spell counted as a weapon for that? I'm fine either way, just curious.
Yeah Rays count as weapons (i.e. you can take improved crit on rays).
Glad you got some out of the post.
As for dex orientated builds - Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance (if allowed)
Melee enchantment of "Agile" if you arent taking Dervish Dance.
okay, rays known, but what about other types?
okay, rays known, but what about other types?
I think any spell that is single target damage qualifies for Sneak Attack, therefore d4 damage. I would say that unless the damage type coincides with the weapons listed in the ability, it counts as d4.
Check Arcanas, there are some that allow you to cast ranged spells with spellstrike I believe (certainly there's the opposite).
Let me know how you end up building this fella!
Edit: not sure what your question was exactly, hope I answered. Otherwise many of these boards are better with rules than I am.
okay, rays known, but what about other types?I think any spell that is single target damage qualifies for Sneak Attack, therefore d4 damage. I would say that unless the damage type coincides with the weapons listed in the ability, it counts as d4.
Check Arcanas, there are some that allow you to cast ranged spells with spellstrike I believe (certainly there's the opposite).
Let me know how you end up building this fella!
Edit: not sure what your question was exactly, hope I answered. Otherwise many of these boards are better with rules than I am.
You pretty much hit that nail on the head. I'm completely cool with doing d4's on spells.
current build is here:
THE AMAZING KNIFE NUT (I guess)
as usual, comments, alternate suggestions, and so on are greatly appreciated. 'feats and abilities' has all the class stuff, 'additional info' on the bottom has ideas and traits, haven't filled out the magic stuff yet, etc.
edit: also I think the saves might be wrong since I shifted those class levels earlier.