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On a personal level I don't care for the use of minis in a game and I have resigned myself to the fact that once I am up and running I will need to use them to run public PFS sessions and events.
However, I just realized that I didn't see anything in the FAQs or guide so now I'm curious if they are required, strongly encouraged, just the baseline assumption, or left entirely to DM fiat.
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I have played at a few PFS tables where Combat was done organically, including one or two run by other Venture-Officers. I didn't like it - there was far too much "fuzzy area" on who had reach, whether something provoked an attack of opportunity, and so on for my taste. That's not to say they were poorly run, but I'm a visual person and I much prefer to be able to see how everyone is positioned relative to one another.
It is done, from time to time, though. If you're the kind of person who can paint a clear picture of the situation without resorting to a battle map, and your players are okay with it, then it can work. However, the combat rules for Pathfinder are highly tactical at heart, and do rely in many situations with having a grid map. This is especially true of feats at times, and if a player feels that your choice not to use a combat grid is hampering his/her ability to play his character effectively, then you may run into problems there.
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Just like others have said, having battle maps is pretty important in making sure everyone can get the most use out of their classes and feats in combat.
As for the miniatures themselves you have several options. Since you aren't a big miniature user now you can try out the Bestiary Box tokens, or the Pathfinder Battles prepainted plastic for a higher quality item.
But you could also simply use extra dice, glass beads, or candy such as hershey kisses or starbursts. As long as you have enough variety to differentiate between the different types of bad guys in an encounter.
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Its usually a good idea to have miniatures, one per PC, as you cant expect people to reliably show up with them. Then grabbing 2-3 small, medium, and large miniatures is a good idea, and if you need any more you can always use the extra dice, Star bursts, glass bead route.
Really if you plan on GMing in PFS a decent amount you should probably pick up a flip mat, your preferred markers, and have miniatures available to you. Miniatures are a grey area because while granted some people don't like them, they are SUPER useful when it comes to managing combat. It assists people in planning out their next move when its not their combat, which of course speeds up combat, and that's a good thing!
Minis are /not/ required for legal play, but SOME representative device would be.
As a personal preference, I use the Beginner Box minis for my player characters and pawns/tokens for NPCs and monsters.
I have a box of 20 tokens from Fantasy Flight in all five colors they make (100 total: 20 red, 20 blue, 20 green, 20 silver, 20 gold) and put them down on maps first /before/ pawns.. There's just a /little/ metagaming that happens when they see a map and pawns coming out.
"A WILD COMBAT APPEARS!"
I generally hand draw (poorly) on 1" grid easel pads before hand, I have used the blank flip mat from the Beginner's Box with wet-erase markers (red/blue are not very good, black and brown show up well).
My view is that you have to have a map for combats:
- flip mat (best)
- printed out from PDF using various tools (better)
- pre-drawn to correct scale and detail (good)
- on-the-fly to correct scale (acceptable)
A well-equipped GM in my region would have:
- minis for characters and pawns for monsters from Beginner Box/Bestiary Box (best)
- pawns for characters and pawns for monsters (better)
- pawns for characters and tokens for monsters (good)
- tokens for everything (acceptable)
Your local prices might vary:
- Beginner's Box Minis are $12 locally
- Beginner's Box is around $25-$30 locally + $6 wet erase
- Fantasy Flight Tokens were $3 locally (5 boxes @ $3 = $15)
- 30 sheet 1" grid easel pad was $30 + $6 sharpies
So a "better" setup would be:
$36 for grid paper and sharpies OR $30 for beginner's box and wet erase
$12 for pawns
$15 for tokens
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$63
I think it's a reasonable investment for GMing.
Certainly beats going broke buying the 300+ minis I would need.. o_O
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I guess I should have been a tad clearer, sorry. When I said minis I meant the maps and grids and the whole shebang. I used minis for a while but I greatly prefer a more organic combat instead of counting squares and all of that, which I feel slows the game way down.
What I do with my home, non PFS games now is draw a small map on some graph paper so the players have a good idea of what is happening and where everything is taking place but that's it. They enjoy it better than the use of maps and minis and we all feel that the game runs way faster. This is also how I have been running games for the last 20 years.
The reason I asked the community at large, and thank you all for your answers, is a friend and I will be opening a game store here in Maine very soon and we will be offering weekly or bi-weekly PFS events. I had been planning on using flip maps and minis and all sorts of other flashy things I can purchase for the store at cost. However, I really don't care for their use personally and I thought I'd raise the question of their use in PFS play at large.
In case it's not obvious, my PFS experience is limited, being only a single running of Master of the Fallen Fortress with my regular group so that I could get a feel for what is different with organized play over just regular play. Given the responses I will probably just suck it up and use maps and minis when I start running public games.
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I guess I should have been a tad clearer, sorry. When I said minis I meant the maps and grids and the whole shebang. I used minis for a while but I greatly prefer a more organic combat instead of counting squares and all of that, which I feel slows the game way down.
The big issue is that in Pathfinder (as well as its antecedent 3.x D&D games), positioning and exact character placement, and exact tracking of character movement are fundamental parts of the combat system, and using those rules without a detailed grid can be challenging, if not confusing, for many players.
In addition, I would guess that most of the players who come to play PFS (save, perhaps, for those who might be completely new to Pathfinder) will be coming under the expectation that a grid and miniatures will be used, and are accustomed to using a grid during combat.
Clearly, you and your home group(s) can pull off playing without a grid, but don't be surprised if not everyone can operate that abstractly.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I guess I should have been a tad clearer, sorry. When I said minis I meant the maps and grids and the whole shebang. I used minis for a while but I greatly prefer a more organic combat instead of counting squares and all of that, which I feel slows the game way down.
I don' t believe they are 'required' per se, but there are many play options in the game which rely on tactical movement which is nearly impossible without them.
Players certainly expect it and many will be frustrated if you spring it on them by surprise. I would suggest against it unless you are really familiar with the players and work it out with them in advance.
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They aren't required. But if you are like me, who has low cash or don't want to store a whole bunch of mini's, I recommend the Bestiary and NPC Codex Boxes. They are small cardboard minis that you can easily store and not have to carry everywhere. Each box is 30 bucks, but a great investment.
Right now, I am using the Beginner box as well!It has been a great usage of the box when not running new player games! When I leave that at home, I just use a flip mat and some dice. (which was how they did in the days before minis.) So long as you have a visual aid for the players to mark themselves and their movements, you are all set!
Hope that helps and good luck!
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The reason I asked the community at large, and thank you all for your answers, is a friend and I will be opening a game store here in Maine very soon and we will be offering weekly or bi-weekly PFS events. I had been planning on using flip maps and minis and all sorts of other flashy things I can purchase for the store at cost.
Another thing to consider might be the merchandising potential of PFS (or any other in-store gaming). If you have a game that's run totally in the collective imagination of the players, passers-by will just see a bunch of people playing a game with paper & dice.
If, on the other hand, the players are using beautiful flip-mats, minis, flight stands, terrain, etc other people are going to be more interested in the game, leading to more possible sales to you. They might even start playing regularly in your store, leading to many future sales.
Just my 2cp. Good luck with your store.
Also, if you require any assistance with Pathfinder Society Play in your store, make sure you check out the list of Regional Coordinators for your nearest Venture-Officer.
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As a GM, if you choose to run abstractly, you have to almost just allow players to flank, get into reach, charge, etc. without denying them those pretty standard tactical maneuvers. Those are the 3 most standard you'll run across. And if your vision in your head isn't translated well orally to your players, they can and will become very frustrated about not understanding what's going on in the combat and why their cavalier can't charge or why their rogue can't flank.
What grid maps do, is they allow the players to fully visualize what they can, and can't do.
With a group of players you've set precedent with on organic or abstract combat, you have a non-written contract that they are ok (enjoy) with it, and you are being fair.
With groups of folks that come in that have certain expectations of how the game system works, could be sorely disappointed and frustrated by the style of play, and as such, actually not return to your store for the gaming experience.
I really disagree with one poster's comment that organized play is there to "sell product".
Lady Ophelia and Brutal Ben have it down; you don't need to spend lots of money.
You can easily use dice, Starburst (they are 1" square, come in a variety of colors, can have monster faces drawn on with Sharpies, etc.), those little colored glass pebbles that they put in floral vases, coins, Monopoly pieces, bottle caps (again, easily marked up with a Sharpie)...
I've found that in home groups, my friends know what I will do and I can tell what they are likely to do.. (including the "LEEEERRROOOOYYYYY JENKINS!" guy we have. ^_^)
In public games, I'm always making new friends (a polite way of saying I have no clue who these people are or how they play) so the grids and minis/pawns/coins/dice/Starburst/bottle caps/tokens/pebbles/whatever give me a chance to plan (or make an informed choice to run away..).
Do you need /something/ to represent combat? Yes.
Do you need to go all out with minis? No.
Can you do it on the cheap with a flip-mat and wet erase markers? Yes.
You can even steal adapt Brutal Bens method and just use wet-erase marker squares on the grid.
[K] for Kyra
[G1] for Goblin 1
etc.
When they move, erase the old one and draw the new one.
I've honestly played "pickup" games with .25" graph paper (4 squares to an inch!), some bottle caps marked up with Sharpies for PCs, some starburst from a vending machine marked up with Sharpies for monsters/NPCS, the PRD on my iPad and an online dice roller when I got stuck waiting for a flight...
You /can/ do it with just about anything; so if you /can/, you probably /should/... at least in PFS. ^_^
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think the real key can be boiled down to this: your GMing should never invalidate people's investment of resources in their characters.
If one guy spent all his feats/wealth on DPR, and someone else spent their feats/wealth on battlefield mobility, then you'd better be damn sure that your GMing style doesn't singlehandedly put both those players on equal footing for mobility and leave damage as the only thing that matters.
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I've had too many bad experiences with theatre of the mind to ever play again without a map with a system that is based around tactical play. For example, in 2nd ed, my thief was never ever allowed to get a backstab in. With no maps, the creature had no backs.
I've also seen things like GMs backing spell casters into corners without the spellcaster's consent or knoweledge. "Well, you walked into the room, and didn't stay in the hallway and the room is small, so the owlbear attacks you"
In a system that doesn't involve a ton of tactical play, then theatre of the mind is fine.
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I don't see how there is a problem, this is kinda how I remember playing back in the day.
PC: Can I move behind the goblin?
GM: there is not enough room to circle around with out AoO but you can tumble.
Pc: ok I tumble
PC2: can I charge the wizard?
GM: yes, you don't have to charge though. Either way two goblins get AoO
PC2: ok, I attack the goblin next to me defensively then walk up to the wizard.
PC3: I want to threaten as much as possible.
GM: ok, you can get the 3 goblins or 2goblins and the wizard.
PC: great, I'll take the wizard group and attack the wizard.
GM: sorry, I should have said with a double move. Do you still want to do that?
PC: yup, "your Evil will end today Orcen and your goblin tribes will be dispersed by night fall!"
GM(as Ocren): "hahahah you fool, You will cower before my might" he five foots back.
PC3: ! I step up
GM: Ocren, rolls dice, casts defensively. Make a will save...
PC: spell craft of 24 can I ID the spell?
GM: it's command.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't see how there is a problem, this is kinda how I remember playing back in the day.
I'll see your anecdotes, and raise you some of my own:
"I use precise bombs to de-select these three squares from splash damage."
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"I place the pit such that both ghouls have to make saves, but successful ones have to jump away from us and will therefore have to go around the pillars to get to us."
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"I missed with the alchemist's fire, and there are walls here and here. Where does it land, and who gets splashed?"
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"I'm riding a boar, have a lance, and have Dragon Style. Do I have a charge lane to the monster?"
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"I cast chain lightning, targeting the BBEG. There are 4 mooks in range of him for secondary targeting, but there are three pillars. Which mooks do I have line of sight to, and which ones have line of effect from the primary target?"
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"The fighter and I are 40ft from each other, the fighter and the rogue are 25ft from each other, the rogue and the cleric are 50ft from each other, and the cleric and I are 35ft from each other. Who gets caught in the fireball? Whom can I target with haste?"
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I'm sorry, but as soon as a fight becomes more complicated than "I attack it", mapless combat becomes infeasible (at least, to run fairly).
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Theater of the mind would be fine, for simple characters.
Even the pregens available for PFS are not very simple characters.
For my PFS characters:
Callarek, archer, has Combat Reflexes & Improved Snap Shot
Kinevon, polearm master, reach weapon, greater trip & greater disarm
Bruno, lore warden, whip, whip mastery, combat reflexes, next level gains improved whip mastery, letting him attack out to 15', and gets AoOs out to 10'
Gorbesh, sorcerer, close range spells need distances, rays/ranged touch spells need cover and into melee penalties
Kynevon, Archer, will be able to take attacks with combat maneuvers out to 30' next level
Louis, gunslinger, needs to know if touch attack range, range increments, prefers to stay 40' from any enemy Clerics (bad experience with Channel Negative)
Gildebrando, cleric, needs to know who is within 30' for healing and/or selective channel
Crandall, magus, whip, positioning is fairly important (do I need to cast defensively?)
That's off the top of my head, and my other 5 active PCs may or may not be as tactically centered as Kinevon, for example, is.
Unfortunately you really do need minis and maps for a public game
I am very lucky to play lots games and run whfrp, dnd-next, savage worlds, and such without minis and a scribble on a piece of paper if needed
In our PF we pay weekely subs so buy loads flipmats etc so we want to use them, even though they arent always needed
In PFS at cons i put out flip mats/dungeon tiles, but I am very flexible when i run. some on thne table wish to count each square, other just say, put me next to the goblin. as long as the game still flows at a good pace I am a happy bunny