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Here's why I asked this question.
Initiative order: Monster, Player, Player cleric.
Monster attacks knocking character to -9 hps.
Player rolls to stablise and fails, bleeds one hp taking him to -10.
Player Cleric does channel positive energy and heals 7hp.
So my question is: Does the Character die when he hits -10 or does he die at the end of the turn when he hits -10?
First off, it's negative hp = to the Con score. And I believe it's as soon as it reaches or crosses this threshold.
The PC is dead, the cleric too late, assuming the PC's constitution score is 10.
Here's why I asked this question.
Initiative order: Monster, Player, Player cleric.
Monster attacks knocking character to -9 hps.
Player rolls to stablise and fails, bleeds one hp taking him to -10.
Player Cleric does channel positive energy and heals 7hp.So my question is: Does the Character die when he hits -10 or does he die at the end of the turn when he hits -10?
It is dependent upon multiple factors.
In previous D&D settings (AKA, 3.X, possibly AD&D), -10 was the end-all be-all negative HP for PC's, and once reached they die.
Pathfinder explains that a character's life force should be tied with how fortuitous they are.
If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.
When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you're dead.
(Emphasis Mine)
For this scenario, if the PC's Con Score is 10 or less, he dies upon the creature's attack (should they not stabilize if the score is a 10; they otherwise die regardless). If the PC's Con Score is 11 or higher, they would have been healed by the Cleric's Channel Energy, and actions would otherwise resume as normal.
First off, it's negative hp = to the Con score. And I believe it's as soon as it reaches or crosses this threshold.
I believe Darigaaz is right.
Also, note that it's the Constitution score, not modifier.
Is there any feat or ability that allows you to be conscious while still making fortitude saves and losing hit points? I ask because it would present the "dying" character the option to delay their turn so the cleric can heal them.
I don't think there is an ability that allows your to be conscious while dying.
Is there any feat or ability that allows you to be conscious while still making fortitude saves and losing hit points? I ask because it would present the "dying" character the option to delay their turn so the cleric can heal them.
I don't think there is an ability that allows your to be conscious while dying.
Well; there are feats and class/racial features that allow this, but the results are the same.
Diehard is an official feat that allows the character to maintain consciousness and immediately stabilize once reduced to negative HP. They are considered staggered, and if they perform strenuous actions, they lose 1 HP.
If the PC who was whacked down to -9 HP had the Diehard feat, they'd automatically stabilize (when given the option), and receive the healing as per the normal.
There is a racial trait/ability that also allows a similar function, but I forget what it is off the top of my head.
Is there any feat or ability that allows you to be conscious while still making fortitude saves and losing hit points? I ask because it would present the "dying" character the option to delay their turn so the cleric can heal them.
I don't think there is an ability that allows your to be conscious while dying.
I believe the Diehard feat is what you are looking for.
Edit: Ninja'd by Darksol, but I can still contribute! I think the Orc Ferocity trait of orcs and half-orcs gives a version of this.
Is there any feat or ability that allows you to be conscious while still making fortitude saves and losing hit points? I ask because it would present the "dying" character the option to delay their turn so the cleric can heal them.
I don't think there is an ability that allows your to be conscious while dying.
I believe the Diehard feat is what you are looking for.
Edit: Ninja'd by Darksol, but I can still contribute! I think the Orc Ferocity trait of orcs and half-orcs gives a version of this.
Yeah, that's what it's called:
Ferocity (Ex): A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.
The PC could do a 5-foot step (which has no action), pop a potion as a free/swift action from their belt, and drink it as their standard action (or cast a healing spell); if the creature doesn't have reach, this would be a solid solution for the PC, though if they are out of potions or healing spells, they would still die by the time the Cleric got around to them.
They function similar, but Ferocity doesn't allow an Auto-Stabilize, and could still outright kill the PC if they do not immediately heal their wounds.
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Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.
Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went.
I'd support a rule like this one, with a little more word. It would have to be simple though.
I know that the Ranger in our group died (and we use 3.x+ books), and that when the Cleric got to him, he remembered that the Resurgence spell (which allows a target to reroll a single D20 "save" roll) would allow the character to reroll the stabilize check to maintain what little life was left.
Of course, this came from the likes of the Spell Compendium, but if another spell such as this exists (or existed) in Pathfinder, it would be a damn good lifesaver.
I know that the Ranger in our group died (and we use 3.x+ books), and that when the Cleric got to him, he remembered that the Resurgence spell (which allows a target to reroll a single D20 "save" roll) would allow the character to reroll the stabilize check to maintain what little life was left.
Of course, this came from the likes of the Spell Compendium, but if another spell such as this exists (or existed) in Pathfinder, it would be a damn good lifesaver.
From here. Not quite a spell, but the ability does exist.
Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Please note that it could be argued that people at negative HP cannot act, and therefore have an effective initiative of 0. I do this in my own games, that means that all stabilize rolls are rolled at the end of a turn. This removes the instance of people being punished by having high initiative.
*Edit* Ignore this post. *Edit*
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Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
That is how we run it. At the end of every turn, all needing to will make stabilization checks.
Please note that it could be argued that people at negative HP cannot act, and therefore have an effective initiative of 0. I do this in my own games, that means that all stabilize rolls are rolled at the end of a turn. This removes the instance of people being punished by having high initiative.
And what do those with 7 Dex do that roll a 1? :)
On the other hand this now punishes those that have really high initiative and had already acted before the attacker.
Cleric ini 17
Rogue ini 15
Orc Ini 10
Orc reduced Rogue to -9
Normally now the cleric could heal the rogue, if you make the check at 0 then he couldn't. Unless you make the first check in the next round.
Never really ideal however you do it.
Why couldn't the character just delay their action, setting their initiative at the bottom of the round, allowing for the cleric a chance to heal him?
Because he's unconcious and can't take an action?
Let's assume you allow it. Then this little part of the rule comes into effect "If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again)."
So I lie there dying. 1 HP away from being dead. I delay, hope the cleric heals me. Cleric is lazy and rather drinks a beer, because he's a dwarf.
So I let my delayed action waste and delay again. And again. And again. Hoping that some day in 10 years someone comes buy and casts Stabilize on me.
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Normally now the cleric could heal the rogue, if you make the check at 0 then he couldn't. Unless you make the first check in the next round.
I'd assume that's exactly what you do. The rogue has already acted this round, so he doesn't get to 'act' (make a stabilise check) again. Next round (his next chance to act) he automatically 'delays' to initiative 0.
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I believe -CON means dead at the moment they get there. In the OPs scenario, the PC is dead prior to the channeled energy.
Additionally, I'd like to add a few related thoughts about this and other threads I've seen lately....
As a casual observation, many threads go like this:
- Simple question asked
- Simple question answered
- A completely opposite answer to the correct one is given
- Someone cites a rule exception
- Somebody else cites another rule exception
- Somebody offers a newly made up house-rule
- Somebody else agrees about the nature of the house rule
- Somebody makes an assumption about the OPs question and intimates that the question has indeed already been answered
- 2-3 others provide various exception-based rule examples
- A few others join in to offer disperate interpretations of the core rules; some are accurate, some are not
- People reading the thread begin to think... my gosh, how complicated, and doubt their own execution of the simple core rule
I love these messageboards for all the passion and enthusiasm and help they provide. I use the messageboards often. It would be an improvement however, if as a community, we paused to recognize agreement with the answer given to a simple question, prior to adding our own houserules, interpretations as a matter of first addressing the question, then seperating our own comments. This would help folks be clear i.e. "yes, a character is dead when they reach -con score in hp. Additionally, I would also like to add...."
Sometimes it is difficult to seperate answers from suggestions, and it leads to confusion. Again, just a suggestion to always acknowledge agreement first (this part is often skipped) prior to clearly explaining the rest of one's comments contain ideas about other factors to consider. I realize its not always that easy to do.
Because he's unconcious and can't take an action?
Let's assume you allow it. Then this little part of the rule comes into effect "If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again)."
So I lie there dying. 1 HP away from being dead. I delay, hope the cleric heals me. Cleric is lazy and rather drinks a beer, because he's a dwarf.
So I let my delayed action waste and delay again. And again. And again. Hoping that some day in 10 years someone comes buy and casts Stabilize on me.
Delay: "By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act"
I'm not saying the character can freeze time. I'm just using the delay action to let everyone else go first before you try to stabilize in that round.
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Under "Stable Characters and Recovery":
"An unconscious or dying character cannot use any special action that changes the initiative count on which his action occurs"
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Don't forget the Breath of Life spell
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
I agree. Look PC death is too important to be left to such a minor quirk. Well, unless the death was very heroic and the player is happy and likes his back-up PC a lot.
D&D is a Game. Games should be fun. A tiny insignificant interpretation of the RAW is no biggie. Clearly the RAI is to give a PC the benefit of the doubt, so there's that.
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Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
I agree. Look PC death is too important to be left to such a minor quirk. Well, unless the death was very heroic and the player is happy and likes his back-up PC a lot.
D&D is a Game. Games should be fun. A tiny insignificant interpretation of the RAW is no biggie. Clearly the RAI is to give a PC the benefit of the doubt, so there's that.
I agree. In our games we house rules that all magical healing would work like Breath of Life. If you catch them within 1 round after dieing, any magic healing that brings them to stable works.
It has made some epic scrambles through combat to get to that one character to save them.
I agree. In our games we house rules that all magical healing would work like Breath of Life. If you catch them within 1 round after dieing, any magic healing that brings them to stable works.
It has made some epic scrambles through combat to get to that one character to save them.
Which adds to the Fun.
Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
Penalty for 'high' initiative would only occur during the first round, and only if the monsters moved before you did, beat you to within 1 HP of death, then it was your turn. After that initiative is all relative. The guy with an init of 1, has a 'higher' init then the guy with 20, he bleeds to death the round before, the guy with 20 bleeds to death the next round.
If you really wanted to be fair, do the stabilize check at the same init as when the monster bludgeoned the guy to near death. Think of it as a bleed affect applied by the creature.
Yes, he'd be dead.
It's a bit silly though that a higher initiative makes you die faster too.Stabilize should happen at the end of the turn after the lowest initiative went, but guess that's too much bookkeeping and confusing.
Penalty for 'high' initiative would only occur during the first round, and only if the monsters moved before you did, beat you to within 1 HP of death, then it was your turn. After that initiative is all relative. The guy with an init of 1, has a 'higher' init then the guy with 20, he bleeds to death the round before, the guy with 20 bleeds to death the next round.
If you really wanted to be fair, do the stabilize check at the same init as when the monster bludgeoned the guy to near death. Think of it as a bleed affect applied by the creature.
Yes I know, it can get super complicated, and you can always construct situations where it gets screwed.
However you have to realise one thing, this only matters in very, very specific circumstances. basicly what happened in the OP.
- Character gets reduced to negative (Con-1) HPs, EXACTLY
- His turn is before anyone that can heal or stabilize him
- He fails his stabilize saving throw
For all other situations it really doesn't matter too much. Either you're dead right away, or you have a larger buffer to get healed. Sure it might make a 1 HP difference, but its not a "dead yes/no" thing.
And for all those normal circumstances that I would say are 99% of the time someone gets reduced to negative HPs, it's just so much easier to say "make your stabilize throw on your turn".
For this very special circumstance, I would say the GM should be a bit lenient and not rule strictly by RAW.
RAW is clear. The character is dead. In my game the channel energy would have saved him thoguh.
In the end it's a GM call if he wants to do that or go strictly by RAW. If GM said he's dead, he's dead.
Edit: YOu mentioned Bleed. Bleed works the same, it happenes on the targets turn, not the turn of the creature causing the bleed. Pretty much for the same reason that it's just easier, and usually makes little to no difference.
One thing I want to point out: a PC doesn't make a Fort save to stabilize; it's actually an ability score check using Con.
Probably a non-issue at this point, but thought I'd drop it in here regardless. Even if there was a way to be able to ready/delay while you were dying, I believe you'd still have to roll to stabilize at your initial spot in the order.
How exactly does poison stack with itself (pg 558 of the Core Rulebook? How and when are the saves made? How do you determine the DC for the save when the target is exposed to more than one dose of the poison?
A character receives a saving throw against poison whenever he is exposed to the poison (such as when he is hit by an attack that uses poison). The DC of the save of that poison is listed in the poison's description, but is increased by +2 for every dose of the poison currently affecting the target (not counting the new dose that is being saved against). Poisons that have been cured or have ended do not count. In addition, a poisoned creature must save against poison once on his turn, but this can be at any point during the poisoned creature's turn. It cannot be delayed through readying or delaying action. For more information on poison and how it stacks, see the Poison FAQ blog post.
My expectation is if it's true for poison, it should hold true for dying.
Regardless, there are some interesting house rules in this thread, a couple of which I probably wouldn't mind adopting at all.
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D&D is a Game. Games should be fun. A tiny insignificant interpretation of the RAW is no biggie. Clearly the RAI is to give a PC the benefit of the doubt, so there's that.
DrDeth, you're more than welcome to play the game as you please. If that rule change makes your players happy, and everybody at the table buys in, then I would never suggest otherwise. My last home campaign included a 7-page document with house rules.
But changing the order in which a character dies not a "tiny, insignificant" thing. The rules don't let unconscious characters change their initiative count. If nobody can reach the PC before her turn, and she fails to stabilize one last time, then her player needs to grab a fresh character sheet and some dice. That's a "biggie".
The rules are unambiguous. I'll take the "RAI" (where "I" means, as the developers intended") to follow accordingly.
Peace rest on you.
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The rules are unambiguous. I'll take the "RAI" (where "I" means, as the developers intended") to follow accordingly.
Although many believe "RAI" to be an acronym for "rules as intended", it's actually a shortening of "RAILT", which in turn is an acronym for "rules as I like them".
;)