Hoplop. Masks worn to fit in? Masks raised up to show others? Masks held close to give us comfort? That type of idea?
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Hoplop, it is my low charisma, and that I don't agree with people all the time when discussing very emotional issues (my main subject is a lot like this, in that the opinions are entrenched in allegiances, where strong emotions abound and hefty politicisation makes it hard to move around and across, the WASD keys are sticky).
I would like to continue if we could:
Is a transgender identification a wish/need to adopt a gender identity contrary to what is socialised? An opposition to how one is raised and how society sees gender paired to sex.
How far does transgender agents get outside common gender ideas on what a man or woman is? I'll need some help here from those in the know.
Technically, transgender is an umbrella term. It applies to any and all people who fit outside the gender binary. Male to Female (MTF)and Female to Male (FTM) transsexuals are the ones most commonly referred to as transgender. Transsexual people can fit in a variety of your boxes too. The thing they all have in common isn't a 'wish/need to adopt a gender identity contrary to what is socialized' it is having a psychological disconnect where their psyche and their physical body do not match. That is not always adopting a gender identity contrary to what is socialized as it is becoming more and more frequent in this day and age for someone who feels that feeling of dysphoria to come out extremely early in their life and never having to truly socialize as the physical sex they were born into. Take Kim Petras for an example, she began telling her parents that she felt that she wasn't right in the body she was born in at the age of two. She was raised gender neutral or feminine, and was on hormone blockers and female hormones as puberty set in, and had sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) by the age of 16. She is now a fairly successful pop singer in Germany and an inspirational story for transsexual people everywhere. Even among transsexuals there are many of your 'boxes' that people can be fit into. There are post-operative transsexuals, who have had SRS and often Facial Feminization Surgery (FFS). There are pre-operative transsexuals who have not yet had SRS, but plan on it, and present full-time as the gender that fits their mentality. There are non-operative transsexuals, whom for one reason or another don't ever wish to have SRS, but still present full time as the gender that fits their psyche. And there are closet/partially closeted transsexuals, who have either not yet come to terms with their gender identity themselves or have not worked up the courage to tell the people in their lives about their gender identity yet. Sadly there are far too many of these individuals whom never express themselves, because they stay closeted and hide their emotional pain until it's too late and they do something drastic to fix what is wrong with their bodies.
Along with transsexuals, transgender can also apply to the following people: androgynous individuals who do not care which gender they present as and may change from day to day. Genderqueer individuals who do their best to blur the lines of gender together. Transvestites (either fetish or comfort) people who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth but still find either sexual stimulation or psychological comfort in sometimes wearing the clothing of the gender that they were not assigned at birth. It has even been the category in which hermaphroditic or intersexed individuals who either are born with both or indeterminate sexual organs. So no, transgender people do not fit neatly into little boxes, not even if those little boxes are moving. Transsexuals may, but even there the term itself is a broad term that encompasses eight very different groups of people.
And my credentials for this post? A Bachelors of Science in Psychology (in which I emphasized gender psychology). I am currently working on my Masters in the same field and eventually will get my Doctorate in this field. I am also in both the broad umbrella of transgender and the lass broad classification of Male to Female pre-operative transsexual.
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Even among transsexuals there are many of your 'boxes' that people can be fit into....Thanks for the informative post. I hope you don't mind a few questions, if they are too personal that is fine, so I'll more ask them in general.
How do you and other transgendered people deal with legal and governmental situations that require you to state your sex, or for programs or benefits that require such information? I'm just curious because that seems like a major hurdle and it is something I am unfamiliar with.
Also, how would you respond to the question that was raised about in particular sports, but also other fields of endeavor that are separated by sex. If a male to female transgender went into the WNBA, for instance. I know there are already questions about athletes with replacement limbs competing in events like sprinting to some degree. Could this be looked at as an unfair advantage?
Well in the case of employment, most paperwork asks for gender not sex. Gender and sex are two different things, and in those cases you can put either one. In the more government based things (identification, benefits etc) you do have to put your physical sex (unless your particular state does not have the SRS requirement to change your sex, but that is few and far between). The more problematic thing for transsexual people just starting their transition is the legal name. Until you have your name legally changed it is required for most paperwork.
On the other question, it's a very tricky issue. As most people do not come out as transsexual until adulthood, a lot of damage has already been done by the hormones they were born with. For that reason, biologically there is an advantage in such situations for MTF transsexual athletes. However, hormone blockers and estrogens do have some effect even late in life on redistributing body mass. It won't completely take away biological advantages but it will significantly decrease them. On the other hand, FTM transsexuals that want to compete with men should absolutely be allowed to if they so choose.
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Well in the case of employment, most paperwork asks for gender not sex. Gender and sex are two different things, and in those cases you can put either one. In the more government based things (identification, benefits etc) you do have to put your physical sex (unless your particular state does not have the SRS requirement to change your sex, but that is few and far between). The more problematic thing for transsexual people just starting their transition is the legal name. Until you have your name legally changed it is required for most paperwork.
On the other question, it's a very tricky issue. As most people do not come out as transsexual until adulthood, a lot of damage has already been done by the hormones they were born with. For that reason, biologically there is an advantage in such situations for MTF transsexual athletes. However, hormone blockers and estrogens do have some effect even late in life on redistributing body mass. It won't completely take away biological advantages but it will significantly decrease them. On the other hand, FTM...
Interesting, so that would apply to all things, like sex/gender based scholarships and the like and other things? I'm just curious as to how far that legal protection extends.
In the case of an FTM athlete, I imagine they would probably have to take things that would be considered performance enhancing substances. That is an interesting issue to me. I'm not sure if I agree there about hormone blockers and estrogen doing enough work to balance the playing field. But if sufficient studies and research is done to show there is no real benefit I'd be fine with it. It would certainly be an interesting situation for a transgendered college athlete at a state college to present such a case to be allowed to play.
On the first, it depends on the wording of the document. Gender versus sex. And in the case of a scholarship, who gets them is completely up to the organization that is giving the scholarship. There is really no restriction on who applies for it. In the case of employment, I will say this: recently the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has determined several times that firing someone for their gender identity qualifies as sexual discrimination and violates EEOC regulations regarding that.
On the second, I didn't say that I thought hormones completely balanced things either. That's not up for me to decide, that's the purpose of those sports governing bodies. I know that FTM athletes can not play collegiate women's sports once they start hormones, but I do not know if they can play collegiate men's sports.
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The thing is, by the vast majority of average folks Transgendered people are looked upon as "weird" or "odd" or even worse. The only way that is going to change is by being out there, and when stuff like this comes up being as rational and calm as you can be, even if the person who disagrees with you is not, in that circumstance actually especially so. If you act like a reasonable and calm person while the one railing against you is frothing and the mouth and throwing names and labels at you it makes you seem like the responsible party and they the crazy ones, no matter your lifestyle choices.I'll say that this not particularly fair. But by responding or resorting to name calling and attacks, it hurts your own cause. It makes people less likely to engage in a conversation with you because it turns into a shouting match and could even confirm whatever uneducated bias they have about transgendered people. The way Cori presents arguments is much more likely to convince people than the overly aggressive way, is what I am really trying to say here.
The only reason name-calling and incivility was resorted to was not because of disagreement, but because of the borderline offensive stuff that 3.5 Loyalist came out of the gate with. If you notice, we started off trying to be pretty darn rational, but none of it sank in. And, he followed that up with stuff that was not only offensive to me and just about everyone else I know that's reading and posting in this, but disrespectful to me, personally. So...I'm not surprised DrowVampyre went off like she did. It's not exactly helping anybody, but I can't fault her for it.
Like I said before, if he'd come out of the gate asking questions respectfully without stuff he started out with? Then yes. I would likely have answered the questions to the best of my ability. I'm honestly happy to enlighten people on what things are like for people like me, but you need to remember to be respectful when doing the asking or you're not going to get a positive reaction.
Now, I will say this, in regards to something you asked earlier that Cori covered partially. As far as state-based stuff goes, yes, it can be a lot of hoops to jump through. As far as I know, most states do require you to have had the reassignment surgery before you can change your gender designation. Luckily, I happen to live in Washington, where that's not the case. It still took some hoop-jumping, but my ID now correctly reflects my gender.
A harder thing is birth certificates, at least for those of us born in states that do require the surgery first. I can change my name on it (and fully intend to), but I'm sorta out of luck if I want to get a passport...at least until I get SRS. Damn Virginia laws...
I totally agree with the message there and the education. Unfortunatly some of the people aren't educated and do find it odd, but hopefully if we spread the word we can educate more people.
Somebody like me who comes in here sees 3.5 being logical and respectful, and then a chorus of people shouting in his direction for daring to hold a different belief or opinion about something and calling him ignorant, intolerant or a pseudo-intellectual.
If you believe 3.5 to be wrong present rational arguments, actually cite facts and studies and present links.
First, he wasn't being logical and respectful. He was being openly ignorant, arrogant, and intolerant, and intentionally trolling by all appearances.
Secondly, people have presented a mountain of rational arguments that he simply ignores - he has to actually want to not be ignorant for them to have any use. So far, he has shown exactly the opposite. He doesn't just hold an opposite viewpoint, he pointedly noted earlier that he would be hostile and confrontational to transgendered people based on that viewpoint. There's a word for that: "bigotry".
Moreover, he's trying to sound like he's coming from some kind of expert place when by his own words this is not his field, so it doesn't matter at all how many degrees he may have - they aren't relevant to the subject matter one bit.
Now, if he'll start showing some actual respect for people, then I'd be happy to talk rationally - so far, he hasn't demonstrated any of it, and has, in fact, been utterly disrespectful, baiting, and extremely intolerant...hence my last comment. And I insulted what he said, not him, or at least he could prove me wrong and suddenly change his tune...but I highly doubt he will.
I am certainly all for tolerance,
No, you aren't. Practically every single post you have made here makes it abundantly clear that you have no interest in tolerance, whatever you may claim.
Now, Hoplophobia, you on the other hand are being logical and respectful, and notice the difference? Even though people (myself included) may disagree with you, it actually is a rational discussion because unlike him, you aren't being abrasive, intolerant, and willfully ignorant, and if you'd like for me to track down study citations I can try to do so, although I no longer have access to the academic journals I used to so I may not actually be able to.
You just can't disagree with people regarding sexual matters in a civil manner.
You can if you stay respectful about it. I do with my stepdad semi-regularly (different issue, but gay marriage is hardly a non-sexual matter in that regard).
You did it yourself earlier, actually. You disagree, you said why, and while your reasoning is wrong (imo), you didn't attack anyone and were still respectful.
To both Drow and Alexandra, even if you believe that 3.5 is arguing in bad faith and is in fact a bigot or a troll, consider that if that was his aim he did a fairly good job at it. He got exactly the response he was looking for. It is fairly easy to do this, stir up anger and then step back and go "Look, see, I told you THOSE people are crazy and can't be debated with. The name calling, the attacks!" I don't believe he did, but then again using the word BS was pretty strong, so I don't know. I tend to assume people debate or argue in good faith unless there is strong evidence to the opposite.I remember talking to my grandparents and others about the civil rights movement for African Americans. What made it so successful was how peaceful and restrained protestors often were even in the face of abusive provocation that made the opposite side look more and more monstrous the harder and harder they tried to provoke the protestors into a violent reaction because then it could be pointed at as "See! I told you THOSE people are savage and violent!" It's not fair, and it's not easy. It's an uphill battle with the deck stacked towards the people that seem more "normal".
Baiting is often incredibly easy because people are so passionate about a cause it only takes a little to make them look crazy or irrational because the...
You're right, but at the same time, he's the one that started with it so trying to step back and say "Look, see, I told you THOSE people are crazy and can't be debated with. The name calling, the attacks!" would be pretty ridiculous on his part, no?
Also, he didn't just say that transgendered people are "BSing" him, though that's bad enough - he specifically said that he would be confrontational and aggressive to them because of that twisted belief. He would refuse to treat them with any kind of dignity, and somehow thinks that he has the right to determine what someone is better than they do (because he considers himself an intellectual despite the subject matter being unrelated to his field, presumably). He then goes on to effectively taunt Alexandra by calling her just "Pitchford", and when called on it, what does he do? He doesn't apologize, no...he posts a little smiley. Trolling much?
That's what gets me - it's not his ignorance, because plenty of people are ignorant and yet can treat people with basic respect and dignity. People in this thread have demonstrated that. Ignorance isn't something to be derided for - everyone is ignorant of everything until they actually learn about it. No, it's the hostility and arrogance in refusing to treat an entire group of people with basic respect and acting like he has the right to do so that I condemn him for.
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You're right, but at the same time, he's the one that started with it so trying to step back and say "Look, see, I told you THOSE people are crazy and can't be debated with. The name calling, the attacks!" would be pretty ridiculous on...
I went back and read through everything on this thread, especially his comments. I've got to admit except for the use of the word BS I don't find anything I would consider egregious. Smiley faces and calling somebody by their last name is not something I would consider grounds for such a response. Perhaps I am just not seeing things correctly.
He does have a right to an opinion, and to express that opinion even if you, me and everybody else considers it dead wrong. He's using Pitchford to try and make a point about not really being able to change who you are even if you attempt to change your social mask (in my interpretation). Even if it he isn't it is low level needling at best. It's the internet, the wild west of opinion and thought where people can say things they never would if they faced another person in real life.
If you believe him to be a hateful, bigoted troll then the best way to respond is with calmness and rationality. Like I said before it isn't easy and you're at the disadvantage for being a social minority.
Or maybe I am just out of touch with social norms from spending too much on time on 4chan, and my skin has grown thick and leathery and impervious to damage.
How bout continuing to call someone by their last name after she had asked him not to once before? Or the fact that he would specifically aggressively confront someone who was trans and call them by the name that they don't wish to be called anymore?
Locking thread. Please be respectful of other posters, no matter how they identify, please-and-thank-you.
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