I see lots of posts about how Fighters never get anything nice, how Wizards are over-powered in the late game, and I'm not really trying to get into yet another debate on those issues... but looking at creatures in the 12-18th level range that have spell resistance, that seems like a pretty massive gimp for casters.
Sure, creatures have damage resistance and energy resistance - even if DR if far easier to overcome for Fighters than fire or cold resistance might be for wizards... but we're talking about in most cases literally a 50/50 chance of a wizard's spells failing BEFORE you even check to see if the save is successful. A Fighter doesn't get a limited number of swings with his sword, but a spellcaster only has so many bullets in his gun - I'm just really surprised that we don't see more comments on the added difficulty of overcoming spell resistance for casters.
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It's a trap. It blocks your wizard and cleric allies from casting beneficial spells on you as well.
You have to spend a standard action to lower it before they can cast anything on you. Then next round it goes back up. Great for when you aren't threatened, but hard to do in the middle of combat when you need to be hitting the enemy and their spellcasters are trying to cast on you too.
Oh, and it doesn't lower when you go unconscious. Hope that Heal spell gets through.
As for getting through enemy spell resistance, there are plenty of SR: No spells to use on them.
Honestly, I stack a lot of Spell Penetration on all of my pure casters for exactly this reason. First time I played Pathfinder, I was an Elemental bloodline Sorcerer. We started fighting demons as a major enemy in our campaign and I got fed up with half my spells failing before they had normal fail chances. Two feats, an ioun stone, and a Robe of the Archmagi later, I had +7 to penetrate SR above what my level would suggest, making that 50% chance of failure a 15% chance. Additionally, the metamagic Penetrating Spell can make up the difference at the cost of +1 Spell Level.
In a normal campaign, I don't think it is intended that you frequently encounter enemies with SR that high (based on the APs that I have run anyway). It's just supposed to make certain enemies tougher than normal against spells, just like DR is supposed to. Likewise, there are measures that can be taken to resolve the problem if it come up frequently.
As for getting through enemy spell resistance, there are too many SR: No spells to use on them.
Fixed that from my perspective.
There are a few main problems with SR - #1) there are too many spells that bypass it without enough cost, #2) it's usually too easy to beat, #3) it's a clunky mechanic in the first place considering a save bonus and energy resistance would probably make more sense.
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Salutations. I'm running a level 15 campaign right now. I can answer your concerns about the SR issue.
First, keep in mind that while a good percentage of monsters in the beastiery have SR, a lot of human NPC enemies do not. There are few classes (Such as monk) that has SR inherently.
Second, keep in mind that high level offensive casters are going to take feats like spell penetration to minimize the impact of SR.
Last, but not least, a big part of being a caster is playing up to the strengths and weaknesses of your foes. A smart wizard uses knowledge checks to find out what he can first about what he is fighting...and then uses the right spells for maximum effect. If he's facing a group of mobs with SR but low fortsave, he'll go for stinking cloud knowing that, while the SR will keep some of them from being affected, the fort save is almost a given fail. If he's fighting something with decent saves and SR, he's going to use those spells that can control the battlefield...like stone wall, haste, and polymorph and/or spells with no SR allowed, such as acid pit. By those higher levels, where SR becomes more common, the casters have more and more tools to work with to address those issues. Remember, a caster's biggest weapon is his versatility on the battlefiled. The right spell at the right time makes all the difference in the world.
Honestly, I stack a lot of Spell Penetration on all of my pure casters for exactly this reason. First time I played Pathfinder, I was an Elemental bloodline Sorcerer. We started fighting demons as a major enemy in our campaign and I got fed up with half my spells failing before they had normal fail chances. Two feats, an ioun stone, and a Robe of the Archmagi later, I had +7 to penetrate SR above what my level would suggest, making that 50% chance of failure a 15% chance. Additionally, the metamagic Penetrating Spell can make up the difference at the cost of +1 Spell Level.
In a normal campaign, I don't think it is intended that you frequently encounter enemies with SR that high (based on the APs that I have run anyway). It's just supposed to make certain enemies tougher than normal against spells, just like DR is supposed to. Likewise, there are measures that can be taken to resolve the problem if it come up frequently.
I'm running a Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey Bloodline) carefuly crafted to have incredibly high DC's with her compulsion spells... but the build as yet leaves little room for Spell Penetration feats.
My concern is outsider-heavy high-level campaigns where you're fighting a lot of demons or devils or even angels... when you include elementals, constructs and undead who are immune to mind affecting spells and so forth it just seems to me that the presumption of spellcaster dominance at higher levels is a little overdone.
It's a trap. It blocks your wizard and cleric allies from casting beneficial spells on you as well.
You have to spend a standard action to lower it before they can cast anything on you. Then next round it goes back up. Great for when you aren't threatened, but hard to do in the middle of combat when you need to be hitting the enemy and their spellcasters are trying to cast on you too.
Oh, and it doesn't lower when you go unconscious. Hope that Heal spell gets through.
As for getting through enemy spell resistance, there are plenty of SR: No spells to use on them.
Not looking to add it to a character, rather recognizing it as a pretty major stumbling block for many casters to overcome.
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It's generally considered good manners, on the part of the GM, to mention during the character creation process of the camapign is going to feature certain types of foes in heavier proportions than normal. Taking a loot at Carrion Crown Player's Guide, for example....since the campaign has a lot of undead, they advise players that enchanters are going to have a harder time than normal. So if you're participating in a campaign focusing mostly on outsiders, hopefully that was brought up during the character creation process.
From a player build perspective, if you have a high level, offensive, specialized caster build, you really would do well to free up a couple of slots for penetration and greater penetration. Even in a normal campaign, at the higher levels, a good percentage of foes are going to have SR. You'll get great milage out of those feats. Or, at least grab Piercing Spell metamagic...which gives you a +5 bonus vs. spell resistance (cutting average SR effectiveness in half for the cost of +1 spell level in casting).
I believe that taking all three feats (Piercing, Spell penetration, and Greater spell penetration) would render most avearge monster SR nearly worthless.
If you don't take these, and you're playing a caster that pretty much focuses on enchanting and little else, you're like an archer who does not take the feats that deal with the soft cover bonus (that mobs get when you are firing through others) and the "shooting into melee" penality. (Without those feats, archers have a cumlative -8 change to hit in most combat situations). In other words, you're handicapping yourself.
Not looking to add it to a character, rather recognizing it as a pretty major stumbling block for many casters to overcome.It's a trap. It blocks your wizard and cleric allies from casting beneficial spells on you as well.
You have to spend a standard action to lower it before they can cast anything on you. Then next round it goes back up. Great for when you aren't threatened, but hard to do in the middle of combat when you need to be hitting the enemy and their spellcasters are trying to cast on you too.
Oh, and it doesn't lower when you go unconscious. Hope that Heal spell gets through.
As for getting through enemy spell resistance, there are plenty of SR: No spells to use on them.
It really isn't. The best spells in the game, the ones that make wizards as godly as they are, don't bother with SR. That's half of what makes them so useful and borderline broken, and makes the so-called "God Wizard" so good at what s/he does. The other half is that these spells tend to either not have saves or have at least some debilitating effect even if the save is made, compared to the "Save for half damage" effect of your average SR-impeded blaster spell.
All this combines to make their spells very "win a lot or win a little less" versus the "win or lose" shot of a blaster spell or a fighter's swinging sword.
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Indeed, I agree. For the average general wizard, they generally have enough diversity that they have the right tool for the right job, so to speak...which really decreases the needs for the feats I mentioned earlier. I recommend those three feats only to casters who are really focused on certain schools of spells that open themselves to SR such as enchanting.
Indeed, I agree. For the average general wizard, they generally have enough diversity that they have the right tool for the right job, so to speak...which really decreases the needs for the feats I mentioned earlier. I recommend those three feats only to casters who are really focused on certain schools of spells that open themselves to SR such as enchanting.
This is the character build as it stands right now (feats only):
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Nature)
7th - Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline – Arcane Bond)
7th - Improved Initiative*
9th - Silent Spell
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline – New Arcana)
13th - Persistent Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
15th - Spell Perfection: Hold Monster
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline – Enchantment)
19th - Still Spell
19th - Lightning Reflexes*
Now going the Eldritch Heritage route nets me 1 additional spell per day of any level (Arcane Bond), 3 additional spells added to my spells known (New Arcana) and an additional +2 DC on Enchantment spells. That's a lot of goodness in my opinion. The only way I can see working those feats in that you recommend (and it seems a good recommendation) would be to drop the feat line entirely which would then free up 4 slots... what do you think?
EDIT:
This is how I think I'd put the build together if I were to make those changes... the DC won't be quite as high, but it should be able to more than overcome most spell resistances - especially with the 15th level Fey Magic ability to reroll any check to overcome Spell Resistance.
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Still Spell
7th - Silent Spell
7th - Improved Initiative*
9th - Spell Penetration
11th - Greater Spell Penetration
13th - Persistent Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
15th - Spell Perfection: Hold Monster
17th - Penetrating Spell
19th - Iron Will
19th - Lightning Reflexes*
That will give her the ability to cast a Stilled, Silent Charm Person spell by 7th level (something I've found to be incredibly useful) and the ability to cast Silent spells by the time the Fleeting Glance ability becomes available at 9th level (Greater Invsibility at will for level# of rounds/day). DC's will be a little lower and she'll lose a little of her versatility, but concerns over SR should be a thing of the past.
I'm actually wondering if I shouldn't use the Penetrating Spell slot for something else, considering the Fey Magic ability to re-roll...
Concentration and Spell Resistance are both things that fighters don't have to worry about... people generally don't take these into account, however, when discussing the power difference between fighters and casters (though they should). Defensive Casting in Pathfinder is no joke... DC 15 + (spell level x2) is no pushover. Most full spell casters need to take feats and items to compensate for both Spell Resistance and the need for Concentration. Especially in high level play (I also have experience DMing a level 15 campaign), casters are certainly not "more powerful" than fighters, regardless of what people here on the boards tell you. Casters generally don't have an easy time getting the full effect of their spells on high level monsters... Spell Resistance, Concentration, Saving Throws, and sometimes touch attacks all come into play sometimes, just to affect a target with 1 spell... and chances are, the caster is going to fail at least 1 of those rolls.
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Yeah...you got a bit of wiggle room in there. Doing what you just suggested IS one route. If it wasn't for the +2 to DCs, I would say that would be a no brainer. A compromise would be to drop the one weakest feat, such as silent or still spell and trade it with piercing metamagic feat. (really, how often are you silenced? In 3 campaigns, I have yet to see a PC silenced, though I have seen them pinnned so still spell might be more useful). So you get a 25% chance to beat SR foes without sacrificing your +10% (from the +2 DC) vs all foes.
I agree with Sinatar's post about Concentration. Not having that can be a handicap more than you might expect.
Yeah...you got a bit of wiggle room in there. Doing what you just suggested IS one route. If it wasn't for the +2 to DCs, I would say that would be a no brainer. A compromise would be to drop the one weakest feat, such as silent or still spell and trade it with piercing metamagic feat. (really, how often are you silenced? In 3 campaigns, I have yet to see a PC silenced, though I have seen them pinnned so still spell might be more useful). So you get a 25% chance to beat SR foes without sacrificing your +10% (from the +2 DC) vs all foes.
I agree with Sinatar's post about Concentration. Not having that can be a handicap more than you might expect.
Just made a quick edit to the post above. I could probably work Combat Casting in there - I already have the Focused Mind trait.
Okay, probably something like this then:
Traits:
Reactionary
Focused Mind
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Combat Casting
7th - Silent Spell
7th - Improved Initiative*
9th - Spell Penetration
11th - Greater Spell Penetration
13th - Persistent Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
15th - Spell Perfection: Hold Monster
17th - Still Spell
19th - Iron Will
19th - Lightning Reflexes*
I'm willing to let go of the +2 DC because 1) it doesn't kick in til 17th level anyway, whereas I'll enjoy the benefits of Spell Penetration much, much earlier and 2) with the favored class bonuses from being a Kitsune, my DC's are pretty high already. Dropping Penetrating Spell should be okay considering Fey Magic:
Fey Magic (Su): At 15th level, you may reroll any caster level check made to overcome spell resistance. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. You can use this ability at will.
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Sounds like you got to down. With +4 vs. SR from Spell penetration and greater, the average failure chance would be 30%, but with Fey Magic, you knock that down even further. I think it's a pretty fair trade. And, yeah, you'll enjoy it earlier especially if the campaign you're in has lots o' outsiders. Yeah, the favored bonus from Kitsune is pretty sweet. +DC is always a huge bonus. Sounds like you got this pretty well lined up.
Btw - this character is being put together for an upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign.
Sounds like you got to down. With +4 vs. SR from Spell penetration and greater, the average failure chance would be 30%, but with Fey Magic, you knock that down even further. I think it's a pretty fair trade. And, yeah, you'll enjoy it earlier especially if the campaign you're in has lots o' outsiders. Yeah, the favored bonus from Kitsune is pretty sweet. +DC is always a huge bonus. Sounds like you got this pretty well lined up.
Well that Hold Monster at 15th level should be pretty potent. It'll have a DC of somewhere between 32 and 35, gain +8 against Spell Resistance and will be either Quickened or Persistent without the expenditure of any high level spell slots.
Because spell resistances are a joke for real casters.
Spell resistance is why my players who play casters will always have Greater Spell Penetration at about level 10. As soon as that has happened, it is much less of an issue than without the two feats.
if you are going to be in ROtRL hold monster is not going to help you out much at 15th. Spoiler warning things are highly immune to mind affecting
if you are going to be in ROtRL hold monster is not going to help you out much at 15th. Spoiler warning things are highly immune to mind affecting
I'm open to that possibility. I also know that there are a tremendous amount of humanoids from Goblins to Giants throughout the campaign (though that's all I know). I'm fairly certain that I will be a valuable addition to the group.
Yeah, spell resistance really is NOT a joke for casters that rely on save-or-suck/die spells. Even where the chances of getting through spell resistance are good, it still tends to decrease the probability of getting a spell off on the target rather significantly. HOWEVER, there are entire classes of spells which are rarely inhibited by spell resistance: Battlefield control, summons, buffs....
Like I said it's a joke for a good caster. They have so many feats they don't even know what to do with half of them.
Yeah, spell resistance really is NOT a joke for casters that rely on save-or-suck/die spells. Even where the chances of getting through spell resistance are good, it still tends to decrease the probability of getting a spell off on the target rather significantly. HOWEVER, there are entire classes of spells which are rarely inhibited by spell resistance: Battlefield control, summons, buffs....Like I said it's a joke for a good caster. They have so many feats they don't even know what to do with half of them.
Whatever.
If you mean to say that its a joke for casters who take Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration then that's fine, but taking those feats doesn't define a 'good' caster... and I for one have NEVER had the slightest problem using every feat I had and then some.