So once again James Jacobs has created a nightmarish scenario where we are fighting Piraña swarms in water at the bottom of a sinkhole with no way to damage them effectively as they are under water. Our amazing plan was to throw poisoned meat at them so they die. can you poison a swarm?
If the poison is applied to an area (as opposed to a limited number of targets), then I would say that it would affect the swarm.
In real life, clove oil will poison fish very quickly.
You should be able to, as long as you use a technique that doesn't target a specific number of creatures.
Ingested poisons are a hazy area however. It's not clear if one dose of ingested poison is enough to affect more than one creature. The rules just say "Ingested poisons are contracted when a creature eats or drinks the poison."
I like the creative solution though!
I think the gas poisons would work. The other should probably won't.
You should be able to, as long as you use a technique that doesn't target a specific number of creatures.
Ingested poisons are a hazy area however. It's not clear if one dose of ingested poison is enough to affect more than one creature. The rules just say "Ingested poisons are contracted when a creature eats or drinks the poison."
I like the creative solution though!
well since they do 2d6 bite and 2d6 bleed and if you fail your will on distraction you are nauseated and basically helpless yea we dont have a bunch of options like alchemist fire or alchemist bombs. though I guess I could strap a bunch to my self and be a human depth charge.
actually can you detonate an alchemist bomb under water in your own square by raw? I know you cant throw it ...
I think the gas poisons would work. The other should probably won't.
Gas work underwater?
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist's fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made the caster level check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell's line of effect.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
Hmmm, how about heating up the water to cook them (or freeze them with cold)?
I like the poisoned meat idea. The whole problem with them is that they'll each take a bite from you. So using that against them is perfect.
I did not notice the underwater part, and I tend to avoid water based combat, but after reading the section I can't find any rules against it. I figure if electricity does not travel through water in the game then gas can still work.
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Well, you're not actually poisoning the swamp, but rather poisoning (Presumably by injection) the meat that you are hoping the fish will eat.
I mean, presumably you cannot just poison a swamp. At least not realistically. You're a group of adventurers, not a corporation dumping toxic chemicals by the hundreds of gallons.
However, if you inject poison into some meat and toss it to the fishes, I can see that working. The issue is determining how many fish you can poison effectively this way.
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I did not notice the underwater part, and I tend to avoid water based combat, but after reading the section I can't find any rules against it. I figure if electricity does not travel through water in the game then gas can still work.
I think the definitive rules text here is Cloudkill (Which, btw, is exactly the spell you want for this problem, but for the fact that they're fish underwater)
Cloudkill reads:
"Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater."
I did not notice the underwater part, and I tend to avoid water based combat, but after reading the section I can't find any rules against it. I figure if electricity does not travel through water in the game then gas can still work.I think the definitive rules text here is Cloudkill (Which, btw, is exactly the spell you want for this problem, but for the fact that they're fish underwater)
Cloudkill reads:
"Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater."
I would not apply one spell's logic to water. If it was a general rule then I would go with it. In the end I think this is a GM call.
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So once again James Jacobs has created a nightmarish scenario where we are fighting Piraña swarms in water at the bottom of a sinkhole with no way to damage them effectively as they are under water. Our amazing plan was to throw poisoned meat at them so they die. can you poison a swarm?
Which adventure ? Depending on the level you could have access to spells like fire shield. Gorums armor could be solution for low level groups.
I think the logic here is pretty solid for all fog spells. Regardless, the question was can a poison gas travel through water, and Cloudkill, which is the definitive poison gas spell in pathfinder explicitly says it cannot be cast underwater.
I don't think poisonous gas works any differently than regular gas. The other cloud based spells don't have trouble working underwater. Cloudkill only fails to function because someone thought it should. It is not because all gas that is deadly fails in water.
I think obtaining the quantity of poison needed at a reasonable price is the main issue, to have any reasonable effect you would probably have to marinate it in poison and most of it will be lost in the water, cant say I see it working efficiently.
So once again James Jacobs has created a nightmarish scenario where we are fighting Piraña swarms in water at the bottom of a sinkhole with no way to damage them effectively as they are under water. Our amazing plan was to throw poisoned meat at them so they die. can you poison a swarm?Which adventure ? Depending on the level you could have access to spells like fire shield. Gorums armor could be solution for low level groups.
I'm thinking Serpents Skull 3, City of Seven Spears. So anywhere from 7th - 10th level.
I think obtaining the quantity of poison needed at a reasonable price is the main issue, to have any reasonable effect you would probably have to marinate it in poison and most of it will be lost in the water, cant say I see it working efficiently.
our Alchemist has saved every poison and every stinger of every poisonous critter since book 1 she is the cook after all.
I'd have to say.. ask your GM.
I see quite a few problems with the plan but the GM will have to decide on the viability in the end.
As an aside : I wonder did you actually play this out yet ? You seem to be fairly well informed about the statistics of piranha swarms, does the GM allow you to read the information with a knowledge check or such ?
Feed an ingested poison to a swarm to have the swarm suffer the effects of the poison. I'd definitely allow it.
I'd have to say.. ask your GM.
I see quite a few problems with the plan but the GM will have to decide on the viability in the end.
As an aside : I wonder did you actually play this out yet ? You seem to be fairly well informed about the statistics of piranha swarms, does the GM allow you to read the information with a knowledge check or such ?
no last night we stopped and he mentioned that they still had like 75 hp left we had done 6 damage total. Also every time there is a swarm he looks up the sattistics because he uses them so rarely.
If the meat is INJECTED with and marinated in the poison how is the water going to dilute it enough to matter? Then the water in the immediate vicinity of the meat is poisonous and those fish are "breathing" that water. Piranha are quite small and you can fit a LOT of them into a 5 foot cube.
Alternatively, setting off a bomb under the surface of the water should kill virtually all of them (from a simulationist standpoint), though it's incredibly dangerous and likely lethal to the PCs if they're in the water, too.
You might create a barrier around yourselves with fishing nets? Surely your DM wouldn't think to pretend that the fish are smart enough to chew through it to get to the meat. Maybe just catching them in a net and pulling them out to suffocate would work better.
I would allow any of the above as a DM, though the RAW makes this an extremely difficult encounter if followed strictly, barring any highly situational abilities that I've never seen used. This is definitely something your DM should consider making a looser ruling on, especially if you have little to no means to deal with it otherwise.
I'd get out of the water before using bombs though. It's bad juju.
Wikipedia entry.
A military-sourced PDF on the effects of explosions on swimbladder fish (which a piranha is). Comes from testing bombs.