Hey All,
I'm designing a campaign revolving around the PCs being unusually powerful without knowing why (amnesia too, and they're on a different world to boot; probably Faerun because I miss it). But that's all besides the point.
As part of this, I'm designing rules for the players effectively gaining two classes at once, in order to greatly diversify their abilities. The dual nature is also part of the campaign. In addition, I'm planning on keeping this to between 3 and 4 players, but want them to have the breadth of ability that a 5-7 player group would have.
I'd appreciate any critiques that you could give me of the following. Or, if someone else has already done something of this sort, a point in the right direction would earn much gratitude.
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Rules for Double Class Play:
In Double Class Play, at each level (including first), your character chooses two classes (including potentially prestige classes) to advance a level in. This does not advance your character level by two, only by one. In effect, you are leveling in the classes concurrently, not sequentially. You gain all abilities of both classes, with the following caveats and exceptions:
SAVING THROWS:
Your base saving throws are determined by adding together the base saves of all levels of all classes that you have, dividing by two, and then rounding up. Effectively, each time the base save of one of your classes increases by one, it is increasing your base save by 1/2. For example, if you start off as a Monk 1 / Paladin 1, your base saves would be +2 Will, +2 Fort, +1 Reflex. At second level, if you chose to advance Monk and Paladin, your saves would become +3 Will, +3 Fort, +2 Reflex (the last rounded up from 1.5)
BAB:
Your base attack bonus is treated the same as saving throws: add together the BAB of all levels of all classes that you have, divide by two, and then round up.
HD:
Whenever you gain a level in two classes, you gain the average of their two hit die. In the example given for saving throws, you would use a d9 for your hit die at both levels. If a deterministic hit point system calls for "half the hit die +1", for example, than half hit points are carried over, and round up. In the paladin/monk example, "half the hit die +1" would call for 5.5 hit points at each level. At first level this would be (temporarily) rounded to 6, and at second level it would be 11 total. (This is before any CON or favored class bonuses)
SKILLS:
All class skills of any classes that you have levels in are class skills for you. Whenever you gain a level, average the base number of skills gained from both classes, ADD ONE, and then add your intelligence modifier (and any favored class bonus). For example, the Paladin / Monk would get (2 + 4)/2 + 1 + INT = 4+INT skill points. If you gain a level in Rogue and Wizard, you gain (8 + 2)/2 + 1 + INT = 5 + INT skill points.
FAVORED CLASSES:
At level 1, you automatically gain two favored classes (the half-elf's race ability adds a third favored class). Whenever you gain a level in any of your favored classes, you gain an appropriate favored class bonus. If you gain a level in two classes that are both your favored classes, you are limited to gaining a hit point for no more than one of those classes.
CLASS LIMITATIONS:
You are subject to all limitations and restrictions of all classes that you have levels in. This means, for example, that a Bard/Paladin is still not doable. A monk/fighter could be a martial killing machine, but he still can't wear armor and use his crazy monk abilities.
FEATS:
You gain a feat every level.
STAT GAINS:
You gain a point in one of your primary statistics every even level EXCEPT THAT you cannot add a point to the same stat twice in a row. At most, you can go back and forth between two stats. For example, a fighter/wizard combo could add a point in intelligence at level 2, then one in strength at level 4, then one in intelligence at level 6, etc.
POWER LIMITATION:
The point of this system is to diversify, not focus, power. While it's certainly possible to make a more powerful wizard under this system than you can under the single class system (from the additional feats, if nothing else), there are strict limitations on how far you can go. The general rule is that you cannot advance any particular bonus or numerical value beyond what could be done in the single class system. The priciple is fairly straightforward once you grasp it; I will give several examples:
* You cannot take levels in Rogue and Ninja in order to have an insane sneak attack progression. If you did so, your sneak attack damage would be capped at the maximum possible from a single class character of your level.
* You cannot take levels in wizard, and a prestige class that increases your arcane spellcasting ability, in order to boost your effective wizard level ABOVE your character level. You CAN do this, though, to "catch up" if your wizard level has fallen behind your character level. In general, you cannot have a higher effective caster level, or gain spells, from any class beyond your character level.
* You cannot take levels in Ranger and some prestige class that grants favored enemy in order to gain a bonus against an enemy type higher than what would normally be achievable by a single class character. You CAN, however, take levels in both classes in order to further diversify your favored enemies.
PRESTIGE CLASSES:
Several prestige classes are not balanced properly for this system. In particular, of the ones in the Core Rulebook, the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and Mystic Theurgist are problematic, and disallowed. The common difficulty is that these prestige classes are balanced by forcing a single-class player to diversify, and thus slow his advancement in any particular area. This is not a disincentive in the double class system.
For illustrative purposes, consider a character that takes Oracle and Sorcerer for their first four levels, then switches to Mystic Theurgist / Paladin. Horrifying. Once you take four levels of Oracle and Sorcerer, there is little reason to not take Mystic Theurgist as one of your classes; it is overpowered in this system.
If someone is interested in the abilities granted by one of these prestige classes, I can see about re-balancing them. Non-Core prestige classes require prior approval for similar reasons.
I hadn't, though thank you for linking it. I feel chuffed about having identified the exact same prestige classes as problematic if nothing else =D
I dislike their system of "taking the best" of, rather than using averages, as I do, for several reasons off the top of my head. One is most easily illustrated by example: why should a Rogue+Ranger have the same number of skill points as a Rogue+Fighter?
The second is that it makes it so that player power depends on the *order* in which you gained your levels, and that's something that should be avoided at all costs, in my opinion.
Third is that it makes several awesome features of classes less awesome. Why bother throwing a monk in your mix for the saves, when you can just have a cleric/rogue and get maxed saves that way? For example.
If I am going gestalt I still would not go monk, but that is another thread in and of itself.
The gestlat system assumes you are getting equal training in both classes, and there is not enough difference IMHO between what you are doing and gestalt. A good player will still have really high saves if he wants them.
I just noticed your system give a feat every level. That kind of steps on the fighter's toes. I understand the fighter gets access to feats that others don't but if I am getting feats every level anyway then I would just take another class.
The stat increases also make your idea particually powerful. In short if I wanted to be more powerful I would go with your system. That is not intended to be a positive or negative comment since I don't know exactly what you are looking for. It is just an observation.
The reason for the take the best is simple. It made them special and easier to build.
It Also made Stunning Solo and Dynamic Duo campaigns a bit easier for both the Players and their GMs.
Though how are you handling sneak attack. As the Gestalt system makes it to where you only get one sneak attack progression.
If I am going gestalt I still would not go monk, but that is another thread in and of itself.
Yes, sadly the monk class does not synergize well with others. I can see making a decent monk/druid, but it would be far from optimal.
I just noticed your system give a feat every level. That kind of steps on the fighter's toes. I understand the fighter gets access to feats that others don't but if I am getting feats every level anyway then I would just take another class.
I had thought about that. This would have been a major problem in 3.5, but I think it's less of one in Pathfinder. The problem is, if I keep the normal feat progression, most of the best builds I could come up with become something/Fighter. Perhaps there's a better balance, though. I'll ponder.
The stat increases also make your idea particularly powerful. In short if I wanted to be more powerful I would go with your system. That is not intended to be a positive or negative comment since I don't know exactly what you are looking for. It is just an observation.
Yeah, it's intended to make the characters more powerful, and to have a greater diversification of ability, no question.
The reason for the take the best is simple. It made them special and easier to build.
The take the best is a bit simpler, true, but it's really a matter of an extra minute of work at each level up, and I don't think that counterbalances the downsides.
Though how are you handling sneak attack. As the Gestalt system makes it to where you only get one sneak attack progression.
Sneak attack from multiple classes can stack, but it's capped by the sneak attack attained by a pure rogue of your level. For example, if I go Fighter/Ranger for four levels, and then Rogue/Ninja after that, the sneak attack increases at twice the rate UNTIL it catches up to what it would have been if I was a pure rogue of my character level.
The reason for the take the best is simple. It made them special and easier to build.The take the best is a bit simpler, true, but it's really a matter of an extra minute of work at each level up, and I don't think that counterbalances the downsides.
Though how are you handling sneak attack. As the Gestalt system makes it to where you only get one sneak attack progression.Sneak attack from multiple classes can stack, but it's capped by the sneak attack attained by a pure rogue of your level. For example, if I go Fighter/Ranger for four levels, and then Rogue/Ninja after that, the sneak attack increases at twice the rate UNTIL it catches up to what it would have been if I was a pure rogue of my character level.
But that means a "Gestalt" Rogue/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) can get a Level 20 sneak attack at Level 10. Then go else where.
Also how are you going to handle the fact that the Ninja is essentially a more in-depth archetype of the Rogue? Or the Samurai that to the Cavalier.
P.S.: I have tried a system similar to yours combined with the limits placed on the Gestalt system such as the Sneak Attack. It ended up making some characters to powerful (Fighter/Barbarian), while others ended up horrible (Rogue/Magus).
We then discovered that they attempted this when designing the Gestalt system.
Some advice from someone who's used the gestalt system pretty extensively:
Gestalt is bad at higher levels. The added complications put a lot of strain on the system. Gestalt is *not* for high-powered games. It's for *low* powered games that want to tackle high powered problems.
Keep the gear cost low and the levels in single digits and the game will be smooth and fun, and the players will still be able to take on things a lot more powerful than they are.
But that means a "Gestalt" Rogue/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) can get a Level 20 sneak attack at Level 10. Then go else where.
No; sorry if I haven't been clear. Any ability, including sneak attack, is capped by the maximum level of that ability that would be achievable in a single class build, period. Meaning that no level 10 character can have more than 5d6 sneak attack.
Now, suppose you did 10 levels of Rogue/Alchemist, as you suggest. It would give 10d6 sneak attack, which would be capped at 5d6 since you'd be level 10. Then suppose you switched to Barbarian/Fighter after that. Your sneak attack would then continue to "increase" because the cap would rise as your character level did. Does that make sense?
Also how are you going to handle the fact that the Ninja is essentially a more in-depth archetype of the Rogue? Or the Samurai that to the Cavalier.
Hmm... I might just permit characters to take multiple iterations of the same class. With the same type of "capping" on any given ability, though, there would be very little reason to do so.
P.S.: I have tried a system similar to yours combined with the limits placed on the Gestalt system such as the Sneak Attack. It ended up making some characters to powerful (Fighter/Barbarian), while others ended up horrible (Rogue/Magus).
Well, certainly some combinations work better than others; that's unsurprising, but does not in and of itself bother me. A pure fighter/barbarian is going to face situations, at least in my campaign, where a character with no magical ability is useless. There will be other situations in anti-magic zones.
We then discovered that they attempted this when designing the Gestalt system.
Who is "they"?
Gestalt is *not* for high-powered games. It's for *low* powered games that want to tackle high powered problems.
Forgive me for this, but, how exactly are you defining a low v. high powered game in this context? All I mean by a high-powered game is that the players will be more powerful than an "average" PC, which seems unavoidable in any gestalt-like system (such as the one I'm suggesting).
High powered, in my experience, tends to mean high level and greater than average wealth by level. (those being the typical benchmarks of power in the game)
Gestalt girls best in lower level, lower wealth games, IMO.
Gestalt is *not* for high-powered games. It's for *low* powered games that want to tackle high powered problems.Forgive me for this, but, how exactly are you defining a low v. high powered game in this context? All I mean by a high-powered game is that the players will be more powerful than an "average" PC, which seems unavoidable in any gestalt-like system (such as the one I'm suggesting).
He/she means the raw numbers of abilities/options become hard to deal with for both the DM/GM and the players, among other things...
and this:
High powered, in my experience, tends to mean high level and greater than average wealth by level. (those being the typical benchmarks of power in the game)
Gestalt girls best in lower level, lower wealth games, IMO.
Gestalt girls best in lower level, lower wealth games, IMO.
Ah; that's certainly possible. I'm not sure how high a level this campaign would go to at the moment, just trying to see if there are any obvious flaws in the system I've laid out above. The fighter-feat thing is the most potentially problematic, but I don't think it's actually a problem.
He/she means the raw numbers of abilities/options become hard to deal with for both the DM/GM and the players, among other things...
Yes, I gathered that. Not necessarily a problem for the campaign, as an unstable power within is part of the story. "Hard to deal with" the vast number of powers available as levels increase could just be part of the flavor ;D
By they I mean the people who made the Gestalt systems base.
It was originally a 3PP system. When the 3PP was bought out by WotC they added it to Unearthed Arcana.
The system is designed for small parties not standard parties.
And what you have done is exactly how they started out. It ends up being to difficult and ends up making most builds a trap.
Take a Sorcerer/Wizard. They lose nothing. A Fighter/Wizard, basically becomes a Magus with larger spell list and more Spellcasting but no crossing over of abilities between the two roles.
I could see this being good for classes that already sit inside the hybrid zone.
For example, a dawnflower dervish and a hexcrafter would be pretty solid. You would have to take spell finesse, but otherwise, you'd be golden.
so, in the above case you'd end up with
d8 hit die
3/4 base attack
two 3/4 spell pools with bonuses from int (spell finesse)
5 skill points per level
versatile performance and spellstrike and double inspire courage... thats pretty awesome. O,O
Compare a sorcerer/wizard to a fighter/wizard:
First, a sorcerer/wizard loses out on versatility. What's he going to do when I drop his behind in an anti-magic zone? Specifically, he loses out on a strong combat ability when magic is not useful, or not worth spending.
Second, Sorcerer/wizard loses out on a lot of hit points and bab {for the spells requiring touch attacks)
He loses out on a lot of feats. There are a lot of combat feats very useful to wizards. Improved Initiative, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Ray), Arcane Armor Training, etc.
He loses out on armor, which can be a real option if he's going to go the arcane armor training route (which is rarely, if ever, worthwhile in the single class variant)
What does he gain? He gains a bunch more spells, true. But spells which prevent him from dumping charisma, and require him to raise two mental stats (Headband of Vast Intelligence v. Headband of Mental Prowess, for example)
Not saying Sorcerer/Wizard is bad, but I don't think it's the clear winner by any stretch.
You would have to take spell finesse, but otherwise, you'd be golden.
3rd party feat, and in my opinion a completely broken one I would not allow. Neat idea for a build, though.
IIRC, there's a sorcerer archetype that uses INT for casting. Combined with a wizard, it would be difficult to run them out of even their high level spells. A sorcerer/cleric would also be good (both casting from CHA).
Paladin/synthesist if you want to cheese out.
Huh. So there is (It's the "Sage" bloodline). You have to take the arcane bloodline, and lose the metamagic arcana, but still, that would definitely be the way to go if you were doing a Sorcerer/Wizard. My other points still stand, though :)
Imagining a neat Fighter (Archer Archetype) / Wizard / Sorcerer / Arcane Archer thing going on, now.
And, yeah, the Oracle / Sorcerer is a good combination as well; very versatile in spell ability. Still lacking in non-magic ability, though, but the spell versatility goes a long way to making up for that.
Paladin/synthesist if you want to cheese out.
Yeah, I just flat don't allow synthesist anyway. At least as it stands; I might be willing to tweak it if a player really liked the idea.
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even with sorc/wiz, you can still only cast one spell per round (in most cases)
Have you considered this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multic lass-archetypes
Sadly, it only covers base classes in Core book.
Let's take a look at some class combinations in Pathfinder gestalt. I am sticking the Core Rule Book (someone else can add all the other classes).
Barbarian is first up on our little list.
The Barbarian/Bard gestalt is a powerful combination. You cannot cast spells while raging, but you can use bardic music! The two classes actually synergize very well together, but a good Bard-barian will not have as high a Strength and Constitution score as most pure barbarians, due to the need to get Charisma to a 16 (minimum).
Barbarian/Cleric is a solid choice. Once again, no spells when raging, but this combo pumps the barbarians Will save and requires good Wisdom . . . and he channel while raging to heal himself! Like the B/B above, though, his Str/Con will suffer to buy up that Wis.
Barbarian/Druid is a match made in the Pits of the Nine Hells. Never mind the spells that you can cast, you got the rage of a barbarian, the shape-shifting of a druid, a druid's animal companion, and the ability to summon animals and elementals all in one neat package that I like to call The Wild Boyz.
Next up is the Barbarian/Fighter. This one is meh. Doesn't improve saves and you already had the best hit points in the game. You don't really get any more good skills and are stuck with 4 skill points per level. BUT, you get armor training, weapons training, and lots and lots of feats, including those fighter only ones. Best news? You don't have to diversify your ability scores, so still have solid high-level Str and Con. This is the Conan build.
Barbarian/Monk. BZZZZT. Silly wabbit, there is no such combination.
Barbarian/Paladin. BZZZZT. It is deva ju all over again.
Barbarian/Ranger. Not quite as overpowered as the barbarian/druid, but close. Your will save remains weak, and your animal companion isn't as powerful, but you more skills (and more skill points) and whole bunch of really neat stuff that you can do when raging. Favored enemy on top of greater rage? Man, this guy is a KILLER.
Barbarian/Rogue. Get a flanking partner and you can chop up dragons in short order. Skills out the wazoo, excellent hit points, solid attacks, full sneak attack, rage powers and rogue talents all combined in package that just screams: assassin! Your will save might be your downfall here, but this combo rocks.
Barbarian/Sorcerer. You lose armor, and your Str/Con isn't quite so high as normal, but man, you are one Charismatic barbarian. Never mind you combine that d12 hit die and full BAB with full 9th-level casting. Spontaneous casting. Ever notice how many arcane spells fit hand-in-glove with a character that engages in melee? And with mage armor, shield, and mirror image, you don't NEED armor. Use long-duration buffs pre-battle, summon critters in round one, then rage and go to town.
Barbarian/Wizard. See barb-erer above. This build has more skill points, but fewer spells per day and prepared at that. Still, built right, this one is a killer.
I'll pick this back up tomorrow with the Bard/Cleric.
MA
Thanks. You totally gave me an idea for a HB campaign. Each player makes two seperate characters. They play one and can swap to the other after an appropriate time of meditation (not sure how long)and then back a gain 2x/day. The only thing that has to remain the same on both characters are the general stats, Height, weight, gender, alignment, so on. I am thinking that the are alternate selves from seperate time lines that got fused together and have to ultimately return themselves to their proper places before they tear apart the fabric of the universe. or something like that.
a guy in my group actually did something like this, but it was a rogue/sorcerer split personality thing. many fun roleplay events ensued.
Let's take a look at some class combinations in Pathfinder gestalt. I am sticking the Core Rule Book (someone else can add all the other classes).
A lot of this analysis is still valid, but not all of it. Note that the system I'm planning on using, described in the first post, is *not* gestalt, which takes the best of both classes. Rather it takes the *average* of both classes for things like BAB, saves, HD, etc. Meaning that Barbarian/Bard combo is going to pull down the HD and BAB of the barbarian, and the saves between them will balance out to something between a good and bad save (+9 base on all saves at 20th level for pure barbarian/bard.)
Have you considered this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multic lass-archetypesSadly, it only covers base classes in Core book.
Neat, and I appreciate the thought, but not what I'm looking for. I really do want to make the characters more powerful. Plus, I don't want to sort through a lot of what seems to be 3rd party material.
Thanks. You totally gave me an idea for a HB campaign. Each player makes two seperate characters. They play one and can swap to the other after an appropriate time of meditation (not sure how long)and then back a gain 2x/day. The only thing that has to remain the same on both characters are the general stats, Height, weight, gender, alignment, so on. I am thinking that the are alternate selves from seperate time lines that got fused together and have to ultimately return themselves to their proper places before they tear apart the fabric of the universe. or something like that.
You're very welcome.
Barbarian/Sorcerer. You lose armor, and your Str/Con isn't quite so high as normal, but man, you are one Charismatic barbarian. Never mind you combine that d12 hit die and full BAB with full 9th-level casting. Spontaneous casting. Ever notice how many arcane spells fit hand-in-glove with a character that engages in melee? And with mage armor, shield, and mirror image, you don't NEED armor. Use long-duration buffs pre-battle, summon critters in round one, then rage and go to town.
d9 hit die, 3/4 bab.
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but since several people seem to think otherwise, I want to be very clear that this system is not the same as gestalt, even though they share the same principle of combining two classes.
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A barb/sorc with high cha could intimidate the heck out of people. throw on dazzling display and you for AoE intimidate that rately misses.
Along the same line of thought, go Barbarian/Oracle with the Lame curse. Barbarian's speed bonus more than makes up for the Oracle's speed penalty, and the curse's immunity to fatigue negates one of the drawbacks of the Barbarian's rage.
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...and as far as "overpowered" gestalt combinations are concerned, the only one that really stands out for me is Paladin/Sorcerer, because of the whole "Divine Grace" bit (losing the armor is such a paltry thing in comparison).
Who is losing out on armor? Throw on some leather, get all the enchantments you need.
Alright time for funsies!
Barbarian/alchemist. You can gain +8-10 str right out the door! Suffers horribly from a low will save and if you get dominated, you will murder someone. But you can get pounce multiple ways, get flight get insane str and great con scores. Immagine you went with a sunder build or a grapple build with this and you could actually keep up with CMD with such insane stat boosts. If you actually went to level 12, with the following choices, you could look something like this:
Half ork Drunken invulnerable rager barbarian/beastmorph vissectionist alchemist
optimistic gambler trait, gate crasher racial trait
Feats: raging vitality, power attack, combat reflexes, eldritch heritage (ork), improved eldritch heritage, quickened spell-like ability (touch of rage), improved sunder, greater sunder
Powers: Strength surge, smasher, unexpected strike, quick reflexes, internal fortitude, come and get me
Discoveries: extend potion, infusion, wings, lingering spirit, spontaneous healing, greater mutigen
give him a belt of giant strength (+4) and a headband of mental superiority (int, char, +2)
Your looking at someone with 38 strength (assuming a starting 15 and racial bonus to str) and 27 con (assuming starting 12) with a +12 to sunder something. tack on his bab of 10, touch of rage granting him a +5 to hit, str bonus of 14 and your cmb would look something like 41. say byby to weapons/armour/what have you!
well you get the idea, and its only that, not fully formed and a bit of a one trick pony as well but it hits hard!
Barbarian/Monk. BZZZZT. Silly wabbit, there is no such combination.
Another note is that something like a human barbarian/monk(martial artist) with superstitious rage power, beast totem line, pounce, fatigue immunity, ragecycling, improved movement, flurry of blows could actually be quite good. a human would be largely immune to spells thanks to superstitious and monks good saves and pounce ties in the monks desire to move and desire to full attack quite nicely while fatigue immunity from martial artist ties in wonderfully with the ability to ragecycyle. Looks like this silly rabbit just found out a stellar combination!
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Gestalt characters are viewed as being 1.25 character level for terms of CR and ECL. Though this might now be 1.5 with Pathfinder's Classes.
The one time we played a gestalt game, our DM changed the rules slightly, you picked two classes at first level and kept those for your entire career, no prestige classes, no changing your base classes, similar to AD&D multiclassing. You still kept the best of everything (BAB, saves, etc), and kept your restrictions (previous example of monk in full plate), so everything else was the same. A fun campaign.
The one time we played a gestalt game, our DM changed the rules slightly, you picked two classes at first level and kept those for your entire career, no prestige classes, no changing your base classes, similar to AD&D multiclassing. You still kept the best of everything (BAB, saves, etc), and kept your restrictions (previous example of monk in full plate), so everything else was the same. A fun campaign.
Simple solution... Though was it Pathfinder or 3.x?
Let's take a look at some class combinations in Pathfinder gestalt. I am sticking the Core Rule Book (someone else can add all the other classes).
If you'll forgive me for stepping on your toes a bit:
What the Paladin wants from Gestalting:
Skills: The Paladin has 2+Int skills. Bumping that up would be nice.
Feats: Paladins have a reputation for being a bit feat-starved. Anything that offers useful bonus feats would be appreciated.
No MAD: Paladins already have a decent number of abilities they want to keep up. Adding to that pushes them into MAD territory.
More spells/abilities: Obviously. Gestalting is all about increasing your options
Paladin/Alchemist: A very nice combo, since Alchemist gives some powerful unique bonuses and provides six levels of arcane casting without any ASF worries. It does add to your ability burden though, since alchemists need decent Intelligence.
Paladin/Barbarian: RAW doesn't allow it, unless you go antipaladin. All around a terrifying combo, since you could get ridiculously good saves by combining the antipaladin's bonuses with Superstition. Pounce is much-loved for any martial class, and the Barbarian's extra skill points are nice. The one downside is that Barbarian doesn't add any bonus feats.
Paladin/Bard: A nicely solid choice. Provides a nice skill point boost for the Paladin that really lets you use the Paladin's high charisma to it's full potential, and Bardic performances seem like a very fitting option for an inspiring holy warrior. Arcane Spell Failure is an issue if you want to wear heavier armor, but you could always focus more on out-of-combat utility spells, and use a couple still spell rods for when that comes up.
Paladin/Cavalier: Challenging and smiting both take a swift action, but heaven help the enemy who gets both of those effects stacked onto him. Not needing to choose between your weapon or mount for Divine Bond is a nice bonus, as are the added teamwork and combat feats. As a bonus, Cavaliers are the only other martial class that can get use from the Paladin's charisma from some of their Order abilities, and they boost the Paladin's skills up a bit.
Paladin/Cleric: if you want to add full-level divine casting, Oracle is the better choice thanks to not adding MAD. Aside from the Domain abilities and some extra channel energy (and you can get channel as an oracle), the cleric doesn't offer much over it's competitor for the Paladin. Only recommended if you really want to be a prepared caster instead of spontaneous.
Paladin/Druid: RAW doesn't allow it.
Paladin/Fighter: While Fighter brings nothing to the table in terms of HD, saves, or skills, it's still not a bad choice. Weapon and Armor Training are great for any melee character, and Paladins tend to be rather feat-starved, something all those bonus feats will do wonders to fix. Plus, the Paladin doesn't gain any new ability score dependencies. However, fighter adds nothing when it comes to skills.
Paladin/Inquisitor: A very solid and thematic choice. Judgements and Bane make for some very nice bonuses for the Paladin, though needing three swift actions to activate Bane, Judgement, and Smite is a problem. Your skill points get a much-appreciated boost, along with the bonuses the class adds to several skills. The need for Wisdom to access your divine casting is a bit of a burden though.
Paladin/Magus: A very solid damage dealer, and eventual six-level arcane casting in heavy armor, and also comes with bonus feats. The downside is that Magi already have a lot to do with their swift action before adding Smite to the mix, Magi also create MAD issues since they need intelligence.
Paladin/Monk: Between all the monk abilities and paladin abilities, you have pretty much the ultimate defensive character. The one downside is that some of your abilities overlap, but you can always take an archetype that removes the overlap to address that issue. Smite Evil will help the monk's problems with hitting and getting damage reduction. The downside is, you've just taken the most notoriously MAD class in the game, removed it's only dump stat. Ouch.
Paladin/Oracle: Get nine-level divine casting and the handy bonuses from a mystery, and all without MAD issues. With a bit of time to self-buff, you become an absolute monster. Your skill points also go up a bit.
Paladin/Ranger: Combining Favored Enemy and Smite is gonna lead to scariness. All your saves are good, you eventually get Evasion in up to Medium Armor, and your ability to use skills goes up considerably. The combat style feats are very welcome for the feat-starved Paladin. The animal companion is also a nice addition. Your MAD goes up a bit from needing Wisdom, but Rangers only need a 14 and there are a couple spell-less ranger variants.
Paladin/Rogue: Welcome to skill point heaven. Uncanny Dodge, Good Reflex Saves, and Improved Evasion (in light armor) are all nice additions, and everyone loves sneak attack. Rogue talents are a bit hit-or-miss, but there are enough that are worth grabbing. While the rogue had no proper bonus feats, several rogue talents grant feats. Taking the Ninja alternate class is a good move, since you'll get more use out of your charisma.
One thing worth noting: Paladins are notorious for how GMs handle the issue of the code/alignment. This could make quite a few iconic rogue abilities problematic, so this gestalt should probably be discussed with your GM beforehand. You don't want to find out too late that your GM thinks a Paladin/Rogue would fall for using Sneak Attack or some other rogue trick because it's "dishonorable."
Paladin/Sorcerer: If you want full-level arcane casting, this is your go-to choice thanks to stat overlap. Bloodlines are nice enough for melee characters to make Eldritch Heritage a semi-popular feat line for Paladins, and now you get all those goodies for free. Shapeshifting is an especially brutal option; The one big complication is Arcane Spell Failure if you want to wear armor, but there are ways to deal with that. If you want to focus on casting instead of melee, the Sorcerer gets a much-appreciated boost to survivability thanks to the Paladin's Charisma to saves, immunities, and higher hit dice.
Paladin/Summoner: Summoner is often considered the strongest class in the game because of how it breaks action economy, and gestalting anything with it only makes it moreso. Summoners are charisma casters so there's no MAD, and the Paladin boosts make any build that melees with its Eidolon more powerful. However, Summonder does have some issues as a Gestalt, since you'll be even more feat-starved now and Summoner does nothing for your low skill points.
Going Synthesist is absolutely terrifying for a Paladin Gestalt. You'll have some spare ability points to shore up your skills/level and really pump charisma. That's not to mention that Smite Evil adds to all your attacks (and synthesists can spam a crazy number of those) and lets them all bypass damage reduction. Plus, you can avoid the Arcane Spell Failure worries.
Paladin/Witch: If you want to add full-level Arcane Casting, Sorcerer is probably a better choice since it avoids MAD and gives more bonuses for melee.
Paladin/Wizard: If you want to add full-level Arcane Casting, Sorcerer is probably a better choice since it avoids MAD and gives more bonuses for melee.
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I am sticking the Core Rule Book (someone else can add all the other classes).
Barbarian/Monk. BZZZZT. Silly wabbit, there is no such combination.
This can be done with using DreamScarred Press's Psionics Unleashed. The Maenad has an ordered rage racial ability that lets them be Lawful Barbarians. A player in my group has a nasty monk/barbarian that is just a killing machine.
This combo works well thematically with the Serene Barbarian Archetype from Four Winds Fantasy Gaming.
My question is how would one roll a d5, d7, d9, d11, etc?
My question is how would one roll a d5, d7, d9, d11, etc?
The best solution I can think of would be to have D5 be a D4 +1, d7 be a d6 +1, etc. That's not really a good solution from a math/averages perspective, but it's the closest thing I can think of. Maybe have d7 be a d6, and then flip a coin to whether or not you get one extra hp on top the d6 result?
5/6 and 5/8 BAB are gonna be a pain to deal with too.
Their are easier ways of Boosting a PC's power over something like this.
In fact Gestalt was meant for (as I started) 1 or 2 player campaigns.
Their method for larger parties increase in power was increased feat progression and increased Stat bonuses. Something WotC didn't carry over.
My question is how would one roll a d5, d7, d9, d11, etc?
I wouldn't think this would be a big mystery, to be honest: for a d7, roll a d8 and re-roll 8s. I use deterministic hit point systems myself, though.
characters aren't "twice as powerful" as normal characters,
True.
they aren't even "more" powerful than normal characters
False. Incredibly false, really.
As compared to a pure wizard, a fighter/wizard under this system, even if he chooses to focus on wizardry, has:
*More hit points (d8 hit die),
*Higher BAB for touch attacks (3/4 progression approximately),
*A TON of feats useful to him (Improved Initiative, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Ray), Weapon Specialization (Ray), (possibly) Arcane Armor Training, Defensive Combat Training, many more), allowing him to use his non-combat feats purely for things like item creation feats, metamagic, spell focus and spell penetration.
*Armor access, if you want to go the arcane armor training route (optional)
*Strong secondary combat ability, for those situations where you don't have the right spell, and nothing great to do in this round, shoot an arrow in its eyes.
The only downside, as compared to a pure wizard, is a slightly lower base will save, except against fear attacks where it is actually higher (due to bravery). This is completely countered by taking Iron Will at some point.
And all this is just looking at the pure class combination. Consider a Fighter(Archer Archetype)/Wizard to level 8 (the minimum to qualify for arcane archer under this system), then mixing in arcane archer with levels of fighter and wizard (enough wizard to keep your caster level maxed for the gap levels in Arcane Archer). I won't lay out the whole build here, but it's crazy awesome.
But you still suffer from action economy and stacking limits.
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That fighter wizard also will not have ability scores reach as high as either a straight fighter or straight wizard. He needs Str, Con, and Int . . . and his Int will have to reach 19 if he wants to cast his highest level spells. If he is an archer, he needs Dex as well. Lower ability scores (in general) will make the overall power level lower, despite having two classes.
And, don't take this the wrong way . . . but your system is too complicated and requires on constant DM discrestion on how to assign class features. Just use gestalt as written. That is a proven system.
MA