I'm going to go with the Orc trait, I think, if I can.
You can mechanically. Mechanically it is by the book. However, thematically is where the idea falls down if you dont want to be raised by Orcs. That is why I suggested that you show your GM that you can do it mechanically. Then ask for a reskinning just for flavor.
Mechanics:
Adopted (Social trait, allows you to choose one race trait for free)
Tusked (Orc Race trait)
- Gauss
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Even assuming he takes Weapon Finesse and has the Agile weapon property with a 2 lvl dip into Urban Barbairan he has several major draw backs. While he does get a +2 to hit and damage its not that great compared to the sneak attack die he has given up, which will net on average 3.5 damage. On top of that if he has a 14 Con (as shown above) he will get 8 rounds of rage a day, not that many. Also if for any reason he wishes to leave rage to do something that rage prohibits he has to deal with the fatigued condition, which is less then optimal.
In all, the costs are no where near the benefits of dipping into a Barbarian of any Archetype. If you really want the +4 to Dex just pay the 16000gp for a belt of Dex, which he will probably do anyways.
Well the main reason I suggested Barbarian was to get the bite attack from Animal Fury. The rage is simply a bonus.
As for the 8 rounds, he can always take the Extra Rage feat, thats 6 more. 14 rounds last for most of the important fights.
But the more I think about it, the more I think it might really be a good idea just for the rage.
Yes, he misses out on one step of Sneak attack, but he gets alot in return:
- 2 levels of full BAB instead of 3/4. That can be a +1 at some levels
- Uncanny Dodge, he traded it away for Scout archetype now he gets it back
- +4 on Dex.That last point needs a few more lines.
+4 Dex means +2 to hit and if you have Agile +2 to damage too. The sneak attack as you said is 3.5 on average, so the difference now is just 1.5.
I'm not doing the real math now, but I'm fairly sure that a +2 or +3 to hit has a far higher return than 1.5 damage, especially since alot of sneak attack dice hinge on the attack hitting or not.Quick math: +2 means 10% more hit-chance, while doing 1.5 damage less. To come out even a hit has to do 15 damage on average. (on levels where its actually a +3 it's just 10 damage you have to do)
15 damage isn't so hard. 2d8 (thanks to catfolk rogue talent) are already 9,...
That's a pretty good argument, Qatar.
However, the Fast Movement is especially nice to help my half-charges during surprise rounds, so that I can bust out Underhanded from further away. So it's the difference between 50 and 60 feet insta-death range, rather than 80-100 feet.
But taking 2 more rounds of Rogue instead of Barbarian gives me an extra point of SA and also another Advanced Rogue Talent by 13th, which is still when I'll get Claw Pounce either way. And I could conceivably blow that Rogue Talent on the Fleet feat if I feel like I'm not already fast enough by that point.
All that said, a good pair of boots will probably give me more speed than I'll ever use.
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Looks like too many level dips.
Rogue/Fighter. That should lead to a good balance. IIRC there are a plethora of MI to help boost speed.
That's a pretty good argument, Qatar.
However, the Fast Movement is especially nice to help my half-charges during surprise rounds, so that I can bust out Underhanded from further away. So it's the difference between 50 and 60 feet insta-death range, rather than 80-100 feet.
Well if the choice is between Urban Barbarian or Rogue levels, then you won't get Fast Movement no matter what you choose.
And getting vanilla Barbarian for the fast movement only... thats kinda silly.I'm not saying you should take it. If you can't imagine your cat raging while she rips people up, then don't do it. Having fun with your character is the most important thing.
The difference won't be huge anyway.
All I was pointing out is that it's an option and even though you lose sneak attack, you will get stuff in return that balances it out.
I think I love this build...
Trinite: I am curious to see the current version of this build if you don't mind posting it.
- Gauss
Trinite: I am curious to see the current version of this build if you don't mind posting it.
- Gauss
Seconded!
I think I love this build...
I have to admit, since I saw it I'm considering blatantly ripping it off and using it myself in a game
I think I love this build...I have to admit, since I saw it I'm considering blatantly ripping it off and using it myself in a game
I already have... sorry Trinite...
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SECOND DRAFT
Catfolk Ftr(Unarmed)1/Rog(Scout)12[favored]
Cat's Claws alt. rac. trait
20 pt. buy:
STR:13
DEX:17=15+2
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:10=12-2
CHA:15=13+2
Traits:
Adopted - Tusked (Bite attack)
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
1: Ftr1 (Unarmed)
Feat: Weapon Finesse
Bonus Feat: Imp. Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
10+2=12 hp, BAB 1
2: Rog1
5+2=19 hp, BAB 1, SA 1d6
Trapfinding
3: Rog2
Feat:Nimble Striker
Rogue Talent: Underhanded
5+2=26 hp, BAB 2, SA 1d6
Evasion
4: Rog3
Ability Score: Dex+1=18
5+2=33 hp, BAB 3, SA 2d6
Trap Sense +1
5: Rog4 (Scout)
Feat: Nimble Striker
Rogue Talent: Vicious Claws
5+2=40 hp, BAB 4, SA 2d8
Scout's Charge
6: Rog5
5+2=47 hp, BAB 4, SA 3d8
7: Rog6
Feat: Catfolk Exemplar - Fast Sprinter
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick - Lunge
5+2=54 hp, BAB 5, SA 3d8
Trap Sense +2
8: Rog7
Ability Score: Dex+1=19
5+2=61 hp, BAB 6/1, SA 4d8
9: Rog8 (Scout)
Feat: Mobility
Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
5+2=68 hp, BAB 7/2, SA 4d8
Skirmisher
10: Rog9
5+2=75 hp, BAB 7/2, SA 5d8
Trap Sense +3
11: Rog10
Feat: Weapon Focus - Claws
Adv. Rogue Talent: Fast Tumble
5+2=82 hp, BAB 8/3, SA 5d8
12: Rog11
Ability Score: Dex+1=20
5+2=89 hp, BAB 9/4, SA 6d8
13: Rog12
Feat: Claw Pounce
Adv. Rogue Talent: Crippling Strike
5+2=96 hp, BAB 10/5, SA 6d8
Trap Sense +4
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Loving this build.
If you want to steal it, keep in mind that not every GM will rule that the claws work for Underhanded.
If yours doesn't just swap that talent out for something else -- maybe Fast Getaway. That would be pretty awesome with Scout, wouldn't it? :)
I put the Ftr level at level 1 to make the math easier. I could move it to level 3 pretty easily to get to the rogue stuff started right away.
You got Nimble Striker twice, at 3rd and 5th level
Fighter at 1 makes sense if you start at higher level, so you get the first level max HP.
Otherwise I'm not sure its good as charging doesn't really help you before Rogue 4. (well charging helps getting to stuff faster, but not in giving you sneak attack)
Loving this build.
If you want to steal it, keep in mind that not every GM will rule that the claws work for Underhanded.
If yours doesn't just swap that talent out for something else -- maybe Fast Getaway. That would be pretty awesome with Scout, wouldn't it? :)
I put the Ftr level at level 1 to make the math easier. I could move it to level 3 pretty easily to get to the rogue stuff started right away.
Mine is gonna be an NPC... }:)>
Trinite:
Looks good except you are missing Dodge and have Nimble Striker twice. My guess is that one of the Nimble Strikers needs to be Dodge. Note: Dodge is a prerequisite for Mobility.
- Gauss
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So, I know you have your build down but I have one more suggestion. You may not like it but I can't believe myself or no one else thought of it. Take one lvl of Synthesis Summoner and choose a quadruped base form, then you take the feat Extra Evolution. Now you can have a bite, two claws, a pounce, and ability increase Dex. Now you have a 14 Str, 16 Dex, and a 13 Con while bonded. So you can get everything you wanted with some minor changes. While I wouldn't do this, it means you can have a bite/claw/claw pounce as early as level 1 if you wanted to. Also you can drop Str and Dex a bit to get some better mental scores.
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Trinite:
Looks good except you are missing Dodge and have Nimble Striker twice. My guess is that one of the Nimble Strikers needs to be Dodge. Note: Dodge is a prerequisite for Mobility.
- Gauss
I'm glad you guys caught that! Yes, let's go Dodge at Level 5.
And charging actually does still help me before level 4, as long as I'm going first or getting a surprise round. I'll still get Sneak Attack with the concealed claws since my opponents will be flat-footed.
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So, I know you have your build down but I have one more suggestion. You may not like it but I can't believe myself or no one else thought of it. Take one lvl of Synthesis Summoner and choose a quadruped base form, then you take the feat Extra Evolution. Now you can have a bite, two claws, a pounce, and ability increase Dex. Now you have a 14 Str, 16 Dex, and a 13 Con while bonded. So you can get everything you wanted with some minor changes. While I wouldn't do this, it means you can have a bite/claw/claw pounce as early as level 1 if you wanted to. Also you can drop Str and Dex a bit to get some better mental scores.
That would definitely be good! I think Synthesist is overpowered because of things like this, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.
I'm not sure it would still count as using the catfolks claws then, for the sneak attack increase, also I don't think the eidolons claws are really hidden for Underhanded.
Hmm... just realised something:
The whole idea with Underhanded is nice, but how do you draw the concealed weapon (your claws) during the surprise round?
I'm sure I'm missing something, but Underhanded doesn't say you can automatically draw the weapon. But if there was no way to draw the weapon in the surprise round, then that talent would be stupid.
Wouldn't you need quickdraw at the least?
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Hmm... just realised something:
The whole idea with Underhanded is nice, but how do you draw the concealed weapon (your claws) during the surprise round?
I'm sure I'm missing something, but Underhanded doesn't say you can automatically draw the weapon. But if there was no way to draw the weapon in the surprise round, then that talent would be stupid.
Wouldn't you need quickdraw at the least?
Normally, yes. But as I said in my original post, my GM has ruled that it's just a free action to "draw" the claws, since they're retractable like a cat's. So that makes Underhanded a whole lot better. :)
Oh good point
In this thread I saw an item from UE that give you basicly a constant Feather Step for 2000 gp.
That would let you skip the Fighter level and the need for Dragon Style, I assume.
You won't get it by first level of course, but by 4th or 5th level it should be well within the realm of possibilities.
Quatar: Unfortunately, that item is subject to GM interpretation.
These fine silken slippers allow their wearer to ignore the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain as if subject to the feather step spell, including granting the ability to take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain.
For the duration of this spell, the subject ignores the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain, and can even take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain.
It is vague if you are allowed to charge or run in difficult terrain with these slippers.
Rationale for Disallowing: It states that you are able to ignore the adverse movement effects, ie., the movement penalties. It then goes to spell out that you can take 5 foot steps. Why spell that out if you can also ignore all difficult terrain related restrictions?
Rationale for Allowing: It states that you ignore adverse movement effects and if there is no movement penalty then you should be able to use all movement modes (run, charge, etc.) that are normally restricted in difficult terrain.
I have not decided if I am for allowing or disallowing. Probably allowing. However, I also think these slippers are underpriced but that may be due to the spell being a bit much at 10min/level. Difficult Terrain is one of the big elements in the game that I believe should be bypassed only with significant difficulty.
- Gauss
Given the slot they take up I would leave them alone. though they probably won't be readily available in my campaign.
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The bite gained from Tusked is only secondary when combined with manufactured weapon attacks.
Bites are always primary, and if it is the only natural attack the creature has, it receives x1.5 strength to damage.
Nope. Just went over this in another thread like 2 down from this. There is a post in the Rules section from last week where I went over this with Jiggy and Cheapy as we tried to come up with a way for my Tiefling to get a bite and 2 claws.
Link to James Jacobs' Response to my question.
Sorry to take the wind from your sails...but figured I'd let you know since it kinda crushed my design as well because I didn't want to take a -5 to hit with the bite.
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The trait just says:
If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
So unless you are magically against RAW there is no confusion there with or without James' input. I wanted to make sure the wording was correct as written and there wasn't an errata or a mistake made. He verified that it is correct as written and is at a -5 when you full attack.
Why would you take the feat as an orc to gain a bite attack doing the same damage if you could just take the trait? Because the trait's downfall is in the -5 to hit. (making it the half of a feat that a trait is supposed to be)
Don't want to further derail this guy's thread, but if you'd like to argue that rule I gave you a link to the thread I started in the rules section.
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The -5, the trait appears to be referring to, is the standard penalty to natural attacks, when made along with manufactured weapon attacks.
You can only attack with both manufactured weapon attacks and natural attacks at the same time if you make a full attack.
And here is where the discussion goes from RAW to RAI.
Trust me I'd love for it to be a different answer because then I can make my Tiefling. Razortusk says almost the same thing as Tusked...but unfortunately as I've seen you link to things Developers have said (including JJ) you have to include that information in the suggestions you provide. If a GM gets ahold of that trait and reads it they may go the RAW or the RAI route and the player has to be prepared for either.
The distinction comes from one being a feat and one being a trait and traits specifically being designed to be HALF as powerful as a feat. Why would you take Razortusk the feat if you could just take Tusked?
No, the trait states the obvious rules inherent to all natural attacks used in a full attack, with weapons.
It doesn't say "with weapons;" it says when used in a full attack. There's nothing wrong with the rules giving you a bite as a secondary natural attack.
TBH, if you want to go that way, then the feat has the same problem.
It also says in a full attack it becomes a secondary natural weapon only.
So why does "full attack" in the feat mean "full attack with weapons, but not natural attacks" and in the trait the same sentence means "full attack, no matter if with weapons or natural attacks" ?
I've seen it mentioned the responses to rules questions on the board by the Paizo crew are in fact RAW (probably due to the 'xyz isn't the rules guy' argument). Maybe someone else can provide a link.
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I've seen it mentioned the responses to rules questions on the board by the Paizo crew are in fact RAW (probably due to the 'xyz isn't the rules guy' argument). Maybe someone else can provide a link.
I'm pretty sure that JJ has said on the "Ask..." thread that his comments there should not be taken as official rulings, only as his particular perspective on the rules.
That said, as he's an inside-guy, he's usually correct as to what the official rules are.
I do think that the trait should probably get FAQ'd as to whether the wording of the trait overrules the standard rules on bite attacks, just to make it clearer.
Ninja is Rogue, and a Rogue can nab a Ki pool.
True, but the ki pool from the talent is based on wisdom. Also doesn't grow with level.