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My kind and generous GM has ruled that a Catfolk's retractable claws count as a concealed weapon for the purposes of the Underhanded rogue talent, and I can draw them as a free action as though I had the Quickdraw feat.
So of course now I want to build a great alpha-striking Catfolk claw-fighting rogue. The claws are great for sneak attacking anyway, since I get two claw attacks at full BAB and don't have to mess around with TWF. But I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out the specific ways to really get to the awesome sneak attack damage I'm after.
The Goal: Maximize damage for sneak attack, using just the claws. Especially maximize the ability to go nuts with Underhanded in the surprise round.
The Rules: RAW, except for the exception granted by my GM as noted above. All PF books are fair game.
Character Level:Let's focus around the level at which I'd get Claw Pounce, which would be 14 for straight Rogue. I'd be willing to dip a few levels in Fighter or something to maybe get there faster.
So far, my ideas are:
RACIAL: Catfolk, of course.
*The Catfolk Claws alternate trait, naturally.
*The Sprinter racial trait, to enhance the distance I can charge during the surprise round (using the charge-your-speed-as-a-standard-action thing)
FEATS:
*Nimble Striker
*Claw Pounce (Awesome for Underhanded, but sadly not available until Level 14 if I go straight Rogue)
*Catfolk Exemplar, possibly twice for both Fast Sprinter and Sharp Claws (Sharp Claws may not be worth it...)
*Improved Initiative?
*???
ROGUE TALENTS:
*Underhanded
*Vicious Claws -- a Catfolk racial rogue talent that makes the SA damage d8, like the Knife Master archetype. Heck yes.
*Surprise Attack
*???
ARCHETYPES:
*Rogue (scout) -- since I'm going to be charging a lot, this will help me still do SA when it's not the surprise round.
*Maybe Fighter (Weapon Master) if I decide to take a few levels of Fighter.
It seems to me the obvious weaknesses are:
*Low AC. Stuff that I don't insta-kill could hit me hard.
*MAD. I'll need Str for my attack rolls, Dex for AC and acrobatics, and
*Difficult Terrain hoses my charging.
*I'll have to buy AoMF or something to enchant my attacks. My GM doesn't think claw blades should count as retractable.
So what else could I go for? I'd love some advice! :)
Claw Blades say that they change the attack from a natural attack to a slashing weapon. Which means you would take normal TWF penalties again and use iterative attacks.
You might want to look into ways to get a bite attack for even more sneak attacks. Here's a few ideas:
Cloak of Fangs
Ring of Rat Fangs
2 level dip into Barbarian for Animal Fury rage power (Urban Barbarian also gives a Dex bonus while raging)
2 level dip into Alchemist for the Feral Mutagen (1d8 bite! also might make your claws stronger. Mutagen also gives a Dex bonus)
To address your weaknesses:
For AC get the rogue talent Offensive Defense. It will add +1dodge bonus per sneak attack die rolled to your AC against the target of the sneak attack.
MAD: Get Weapon Finesse and lose the strength altogether. For extra damage acquire the Agile Weapon Property (+1 enhancement cost) to do dexterity damage instead of strength damage. If not using weapon claws the Amulet of Mighty Fists can do it for 5000gp.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Difficult Terrain: Nimble Moves and then Acrobatic Moves to ignore 20feet of difficult terrain OR get Dragon Style (Ultimate Combat p98, 2 feat investment) to charge in difficult terrain.
Regarding the feat investment you can get:
Weapon Focus with the Rogue Talent: Weapon Training
Weapon Finesse with the Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue
Improved Unarmed Strike with the Ninja Trick: Unarmed Combat Training via the Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick
Dragon Style with the Rogue Talent: Combat Trick
- Gauss
BTW: I would not take Surprise Attack. It only works in the surprise round, your intitative should be pretty high as it is. The number of times you will use it will be small.
Edit: To get a bite attack one (cheesy) way might be: Social Trait: Adopted to get the Orc Race Trait: Tusked. Alternately, maybe you can convince your GM to reskin the Orc Racial Trait: Tusked (Note: Not the Orc Race Traitfor Catfolk and take it directly.
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Thanks guys, keep 'em comin'!
Yeah, the claw blades are no good for this build. I need to keep things all natural.
I don't think I want to dip any 3/4 BAB classes, since that would mean that I'd get Claw Pounce even later.
The barbarian dip might be nice; I'd also get fast movement at level 1, for even more surprise charging goodness! :)
But it looks to me that Weapon Finesse and the Agile AomF is my best bet. That way I can focus on Dex as my only primary stat. And then if I get a bite attack, it'll apply to that as well! That's starting to look really good!
I just reread Offensive Defense --and it's even better than you think it is! It works against everybody, not just your sneak attack target. Which is good, since you've hopefully just killed the guy you sneak attacked. :)
Definitely taking that instead of Surprise Attack. It'll make me less of a glass cannon.
Trinite:
Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?
There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.
Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.
I am checking to see if it made it into the errata yet.
- Gauss
Edit: It has not made it into errata yet.
Also, I added the bit about a bite attack solution to my above post.
Trinite: What do you think about the Dragon Style solution to your problem with charging?
- Gauss
Bah, I just realized I never finished editing the Bite solution.
To clarify:
Social trait: Adopted (APG p329)
then take:
Orc Race trait: Tusked (Orcs of Golarion p23)
Like I said, try to convince your GM to give you a reskinned version for flavor.
- Gauss
Trinite: Good point about the Unarmed Fighter. Admitedly, you will lose 1/2 a level of talent and sneak attack progression but that isnt too bad.
- Gauss
Barbarian vs Alchemist: Aside from being full BAB, rage activates as a free action, drinking a mutagen is a standard action. However mutagens last longer (10 mins/level vs a few rounds), and are more or less unlimited per day (as long as you can brew a new one, which takes an hour).
And Unarmed Fighter is able to take Dragon Style as his bonus feat, yes.
If it's worth it depends if the GM throws around difficult terrain alot.
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Trinite: Good point about the Unarmed Fighter. Admitedly, you will lose 1/2 a level of talent and sneak attack progression but that isnt too bad.
- Gauss
Yeah, but I'll pick up another point of BAB and save myself two feats. That's a pretty good upside! :) Plus I don't really need too many Rogue Talents for the build as it is.
Man, going Barb 2 / Ftr 1 still only gets me Claw Pounce one level sooner! :(
Trinite: Remember, Rogue Talents can supply some of your feats. That was my point earlier.
- Gauss
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Barbarian vs Alchemist: Aside from being full BAB, rage activates as a free action, drinking a mutagen is a standard action. However mutagens last longer (10 mins/level vs a few rounds), and are more or less unlimited per day (as long as you can brew a new one, which takes an hour).
And Unarmed Fighter is able to take Dragon Style as his bonus feat, yes.
If it's worth it depends if the GM throws around difficult terrain alot.
I suspect that the terrain is likely to get more difficult with the more people I kill with sneak charges. :)
Trinite: When you have a chance I'd like to see your full build.
- Gauss
At early level this build is going to be good with 2 natural attacks at full BAB, 3 if you get a bite, without any TWF penalties etc.
But at higher levels it might start to suffer.
By level 8 a normal TWF rogue gets 4 attacks, 2 at -2 and 2 at -7. The first two are almost as good as oyur natural attacks the the others, ok they're not great but may hit with a bit of luck still.
By level 15 it's 6 attacks then. (even though the new 2 attacks are even worse)
Also enchanting 2 weapons is still cheaper than one AoMF at the same bonus.
However you save a few feats on the TWF stuff, that you might put into other things. So I guess it is good, but won't be OP.
If you want to save the 2 level barbarian dip, you can check into those items that give bite attacks. Or try to convince your GM to somehow let you take a trait akin to the Orc one (it would make sense for the catfolk after all)
Have you considered finding a way to use the disguise self spell? If you look like a normal unarmed human, it might let you get your underhanded damage on even your bite (and might even let us talk about claw blades again).
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Have you considered finding a way to use the disguise self spell? If you look like a normal unarmed human, it might let you get your underhanded damage on even your bite (and might even let us talk about claw blades again).
That looks like a job for UMD! :)
I'm still not going to mess around with claw blades, though. If I went that direction, I'd just as well build a normal TWF rogue.
As Qatar was saying, mechanically you can already take the Orc Tusked trait. Reskinning it for flavor is just so you can make a better story than 'I grew up with orcs and they taught me to embrace my inner animal'. LOL
- Gauss
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As Qatar was saying, mechanically you can already take the Orc Tusked trait. Reskinning it for flavor is just so you can make a better story than 'I grew up with orcs and they taught me to embrace my inner animal'. LOL
- Gauss
Yes, they taught me to have bigger teeth. :)
It'll be a while before I have my full write-up finished. Hopefully tonight.
As Qatar was saying, mechanically you can already take the Orc Tusked trait. Reskinning it for flavor is just so you can make a better story than 'I grew up with orcs and they taught me to embrace my inner animal'. LOL
- Gauss
Yes, they taught me to have bigger teeth. :)
It'll be a while before I have my full write-up finished. Hopefully tonight.
Well cats already have big and strong teeth, so that catfolk have a bite attack isn't too far fetched.
That one growing up with orcs learns to use his as such isn't unrealistic either.A human growing up with orcs... that be a bit more, but even then it may work.
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As Qatar was saying, mechanically you can already take the Orc Tusked trait. Reskinning it for flavor is just so you can make a better story than 'I grew up with orcs and they taught me to embrace my inner animal'. LOL
- Gauss
Yes, they taught me to have bigger teeth. :)
It'll be a while before I have my full write-up finished. Hopefully tonight.
Well cats already have big and strong teeth, so that catfolk have a bite attack isn't too far fetched.
That one growing up with orcs learns to use his as such isn't unrealistic either.A human growing up with orcs... that be a bit more, but even then it may work.
True! I'm doing the build with the Barbarian levels first, then I'll go back and consider the trait idea.
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Just a suggestion, you could also take Skill Focus Diplomacy and then Eldritch Heritage (Serpentine) to get a nice bite attack. You just need a decent Cha, like 14 or so to be worth it. And with that said it might be beneficial to be a Ninja so you can take even more advantage of your Cha for Ki points. But even if you don't want to be a Ninja the fangs are nice, with a decent damage bonus and a scaling poison DC that does Con damage. The only problem is that they are only useable 3+Cha Mod times a day, assuming 14 Cha thats 5 times a day. That 5 times a day may seem bad but you can grow and dismiss them as a free action, so you only have to use them when you actually attack. So no rounds are wasted.
Is it 3+CHA rounds/day or 3+CHA uses/day? If the last one how long do they last?
As for the rest give me a few hours.
It's rounds. But Rage is also only available for a number of rounds/day.
Not sure about the ranger.
Ninja might be a good idea, you can even take Scout archetype there as well. Ninja is nothing else than a very big rogue archetype, and it still has Uncanny Dodge and IUD.
Alternate classes are basically Archetypes without the word limits.
Rage is usable more times per day than the bite.
And Ninja is good for a Combat focused build. From what I have seen.
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The only problem with Barbarian is that you have to take a dip into Barbarian. While that boosts your BAB it lowers your SA. Also, Barbarian only gets 4+Con Mod rounds of rage a day if you take a one lvl dip, 2 more for every level you dip.
So you are only getting three bonus round (Assuming equal stats in Con and Cha) for a two lvl dip and you have to deal with all the penalties associated with rage. In addition you lose sneak attack and other rouge/ninja goodies.
I agree with Please Don't Kill Me. Levels in Barbarian do not really help you since you are now going for a dex build.
- Gauss
Hmm... many, many options.
Rage doesn't say anything about not being able to use Sneak Attack.
Urban Barbarian lets you apply the +4 bonus to Dex (no con bonus though).
Rage doesn't say anything about not being able to use Sneak Attack.
Urban Barbarian lets you apply the +4 bonus to Dex (no con bonus though).
I think they mean the SA progression loses a step.
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I didn't mean to imply that you can't sneak attack while raging. The penalty to AC and being fatigued afterwords probably won't be beneficial to him though. On top of that, you can choose only to use your fangs when you are able to make a full attack action. So you can conserve your available rounds much better and use them to more effect then a Barbarians Rage, which is basically on all combat regardless of wether or not you can make any attacks. Therefore, rage wastes those few precious rounds per day or you must be fatigued during combat if you wish to conserve them between attacks.
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First Draft with Barbarian and Fighter Levels:
Catfolk Brb2/Ftr(Unarmed)1/Rog(Scout)10[favored]
Cat's Claws alt. rac. trait
20 pt. buy (not gonna min-max too hard):
STR:13
DEX:17=15+2
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:10=12-2
CHA:15=13+2
Traits:???
1: Brb1
Feat: Weapon Finesse
12+2=14 hp, BAB 1,
Rage, Fast Movement
2: Rog1
5+2=21 hp, BAB 1, SA 1d6
Trapfinding
3: Rog2
Feat:Sharp Claws
Rogue Talent: Underhanded
5+2=28 hp, BAB 2, SA 1d6
Evasion
4: Ftr1 (Unarmed Ftr)
Ability Score: Dex+1=18
Feat: Imp. Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
6+2=36 hp, BAB 3, SA 1d6
5: Brb2
Feat: Nimble Striker
Rage Power: Animal Fury
7+2=45 hp, BAB 4, SA 1d6
Uncanny Dodge
6: Rog3
5+2=52 hp, BAB 5, SA 2d6
Trap Sense +1
7: Rog4 (Scout)
Feat: Catfolk Exemplar - Sharp Claws
Rogue Talent:Vicious Claws
5+2=59 hp, BAB 6/1, SA 2d8
Scout's Charge
8: Rog5
Ability Score: Dex+1=19
5+2=66 hp, BAB 6/1, SA 3d8
9: Rog6
Feat: Catfolk Exemplar - Fast Sprinter
Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
5+2=73 hp, BAB 7/2, SA 3d8
Trap Sense +2
10: Rog7
5+2=80 hp, BAB 8/3, SA 4d8
11: Rog8 (Scout)
Feat: Dodge?
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick? (Weapon Focus: Claws)
5+2=87 hp, BAB 9/4, SA 4d8
Skirmisher
12: Rog9
Ability Score: Dex+1=20
5+2=94 hp, BAB 9/4, SA 5d8
Trap Sense +3
13: Rog10
Feat: Claw Pounce
Adv. Rogue Talent: Crippling Strike
5+2=101 hp, BAB 10/5, SA 5d8
Seems pretty good...
I wouldnt take the Barbarian levels. They detract too much from your other stuff since +4str does not really add to your overall abilities (although the +4con would). If you are doing it just for bite, the simplest route is: Orc Race trait: Tusked. If it is an RP issue, ask the GM for a reskinning.
Here is what I see from this character: you want a character that can charge and do sneak attack damage. Unfortunately, you are waiting until that magic number of +10BAB. Here is how I would do this:
Rogue-Scout Archetype. This way you have sneak attack whenever you move 10+feet.
Fighter-Unarmed Fighter Archetype. 1 level. This way you gain 2 bonus feats and you can achieve that magical +10 BAB at level 13.
Feats:
* Weapon Finesse: Excellent
* Catfolk Exemplar: Sharp Claws, not a good choice. It only increases your average damage by +1 for the price of a feat.
* Catfolk Exemplar: Fast Sprinter Excellent for that extra speed during a charge.
* Improved Unarmed Combat: Prereq for Dragon Style
* Dragon Style: Excellent
* Nimble Striker: Good:)
* Sharp Claws: I could not find this feat. I think you have unintentionally taken the same feat twice. Namely: Catfolk Exemplar: Sharp Claws.
* Dodge: AC cant hurt.
* Claw Pounce: The final peice of the puzzle.
So, I think you have an unspent feat (Sharp Claws) and a feat that is not very good (Cat Exemplar: Sharp Claws).
Some suggestions in their place:
* Mobility: Great for avoiding getting hit while suffering those pesky attacks of opportunity as you are charging all about the place.
* Iron Will: Because rogues have poor will saves.
* Great Fortitude: Because rogues have poor fort saves.
* Toughness: Extra hps for a rogue is never a bad idea.
* Lunge: An extra 5feet of reach is always a nice thing.
Talents:
* Underhanded: Not a bad talent but I personally think it is of limited use.
* Vicious Claws: Excellent talent.
* Offensive Defense: Excellent talent
* Combat Trick: Weapon Focus. Replace this with Weapon Training to leave Combat Trick for another time. This is an EXCELLENT choice because rogues have a hard time hitting.
* Crippling Strike: Not a bad talent. Cannot combine it with Offensive Defense on a single attack.
If you go with Rogue12/Fighter1 then you will have 6 talents available. I suggest the following talents to choose from:
* Combat Trick: Mobility or Lunge (see feats above)
* Fast Tumble (advanced talent): Nothing like being able to avoid all attacks of opportunity due to movement.
If you would like, I can offer some advice on the order in which you should take your feats and talents. If you are making changes let me know which feats/talents you are planning on taking.
- Gauss
Hmm for the plus to DEX you might could go Alchemist(Vivisectionist) Though that might hurt you in the long run... probably best for after you get the BAB Feats.
This thread has gone in all directions since it was posted, but to the original claw fighter Catfolk Rogue thing, I'd been working on a build for one a couple weeks ago myself, and I figured I might as well share it. Only have it figured out up to about level 12 atm.
Seriously to all the guys that constantly bring up how Rage isn't worth it because you don't need strength: Urban Barbarian
I mentioned that at least three times already, you can pick Dexterity as your +4 stat with that archetype. You also don't take an AC penalty.
You're still tired though.
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Seriously to all the guys that constantly bring up how Rage isn't worth it because you don't need strength: Urban Barbarian
I mentioned that at least three times already, you can pick Dexterity as your +4 stat with that archetype. You also don't take an AC penalty.
You're still tired though.
That's true, and it's really good. Sorry I haven't responded sooner. The main reason I didn't want to go Urban Barbarian was because it gives up fast movement, which was actually one of the main reasons I wanted Brb levels in the first place.
But I'm starting to think that I probably won't tg Brb at all, just 1 level of unarmed fighter. That'll also give me a couple more favored class bonuses as well.
I'd also rather not go vivisectionist, because even though I'll still get Sneak Attack levels, I'd be a point behind on BAB and wouldn't get Claw Pounce until 14th level.
I'm going to go with the Orc trait, I think, if I can.
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Seriously to all the guys that constantly bring up how Rage isn't worth it because you don't need strength: Urban Barbarian
I mentioned that at least three times already, you can pick Dexterity as your +4 stat with that archetype. You also don't take an AC penalty.
You're still tired though.
Even assuming he takes Weapon Finesse and has the Agile weapon property with a 2 lvl dip into Urban Barbairan he has several major draw backs. While he does get a +2 to hit and damage its not that great compared to the sneak attack die he has given up, which will net on average 3.5 damage. On top of that if he has a 14 Con (as shown above) he will get 8 rounds of rage a day, not that many. Also if for any reason he wishes to leave rage to do something that rage prohibits he has to deal with the fatigued condition, which is less then optimal.
In all, the costs are no where near the benefits of dipping into a Barbarian of any Archetype. If you really want the +4 to Dex just pay the 16000gp for a belt of Dex, which he will probably do anyways.
What would be better to get the bite attack is give up two traits, or trade Sharp Claws and Cat Folk Exemplar (Sharp Claws) for Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Eldritch Heritage (Serpentine). The only advantage you get from the Serpentine Bloodline is a poison that deals Con damage with a scaling DC, also you get a +3 to your diplomacy which can never hurt if you want to be the party face. The major draw back though, is you can only use it 5 times a day using the stats above. However, as stated above you only have to use it when you make a full attack action, which happens a lot less often then you might think if you are a melee character.
Also, to the OP, I apologize for the derails.
Edit: An easier way to get pounce at low levels, and more natural attacks, is to purchase a wand of Beast Shape II or Monstrous Physique II. That will cost you around 21000gp for 50 charges of what ever animal or Monstrous Humanoid your heart desires. While that may be a step price tag you can easily do that before lvl 14, probably even before lvl 10 if you don't have a bunch of stuff you want to buy.
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This is an addendum to my previous post. If you you go pure Vivisectionist up to lvl 10, you can use the extract Beast Shape II or Monstrous Physique II in addition to full Sneak Attack damage and a Mutagen.
Also, thematically the Beast Shape II may work if you only stick to being a tiger or lion considering you are a Catfolk after all. Also, the tiger is probably one of the better Beast Shape II options anyways. You get pounce, two claw attacks, a bite attacks, a rake attack, and a free grab on all three of your attacks.
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This is an addendum to my previous post. If you you go pure Vivisectionist up to lvl 10, you can use the extract Beast Shape II or Monstrous Physique II in addition to full Sneak Attack damage and a Mutagen.
Also, thematically the Beast Shape II may work if you only stick to being a tiger or lion considering you are a Catfolk after all. Also, the tiger is probably one of the better Beast Shape II options anyways. You get pounce, two claw attacks, a bite attacks, a rake attack, and a free grab on all three of your attacks.
Well yeah, or I could just go straight Druid and get casting instead of sneak attack. :)
Your advice is good and would probably be a stronger character, but I want to stick with a Rogue because that's what I want to play. No shapeshifting for me, thanks.
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This is an addendum to my previous post. If you you go pure Vivisectionist up to lvl 10, you can use the extract Beast Shape II or Monstrous Physique II in addition to full Sneak Attack damage and a Mutagen.
Also, thematically the Beast Shape II may work if you only stick to being a tiger or lion considering you are a Catfolk after all. Also, the tiger is probably one of the better Beast Shape II options anyways. You get pounce, two claw attacks, a bite attacks, a rake attack, and a free grab on all three of your attacks.
Well yeah, or I could just go straight Druid and get casting instead of sneak attack. :)
Your advice is good and would probably be a stronger character, but I want to stick with a Rogue because that's what I want to play. No shapeshifting for me, thanks.
Then you should stick with the Rouge, playing what you want is one of the most fundamental elements of this game. And honestly, that last part was me hashing out what my next character will probably be while giving you some advice.
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Then you should stick with the Rouge, playing what you want is one of the most fundamental elements of this game. And honestly, that last part was me hashing out what my next character will probably be while giving you some advice.This is an addendum to my previous post. If you you go pure Vivisectionist up to lvl 10, you can use the extract Beast Shape II or Monstrous Physique II in addition to full Sneak Attack damage and a Mutagen.
Also, thematically the Beast Shape II may work if you only stick to being a tiger or lion considering you are a Catfolk after all. Also, the tiger is probably one of the better Beast Shape II options anyways. You get pounce, two claw attacks, a bite attacks, a rake attack, and a free grab on all three of your attacks.
Well yeah, or I could just go straight Druid and get casting instead of sneak attack. :)
Your advice is good and would probably be a stronger character, but I want to stick with a Rogue because that's what I want to play. No shapeshifting for me, thanks.
Fair enough! It was good advice, even if I'm not planning to take it. :)
Enjoy your next character! I think I'd enjoy playing a vivisectionist someday, too.
Even assuming he takes Weapon Finesse and has the Agile weapon property with a 2 lvl dip into Urban Barbairan he has several major draw backs. While he does get a +2 to hit and damage its not that great compared to the sneak attack die he has given up, which will net on average 3.5 damage. On top of that if he has a 14 Con (as shown above) he will get 8 rounds of rage a day, not that many. Also if for any reason he wishes to leave rage to do something that rage prohibits he has to deal with the fatigued condition, which is less then optimal.
In all, the costs are no where near the benefits of dipping into a Barbarian of any Archetype. If you really want the +4 to Dex just pay the 16000gp for a belt of Dex, which he will probably do anyways.
Well the main reason I suggested Barbarian was to get the bite attack from Animal Fury. The rage is simply a bonus.
As for the 8 rounds, he can always take the Extra Rage feat, thats 6 more. 14 rounds last for most of the important fights.
But the more I think about it, the more I think it might really be a good idea just for the rage.
Yes, he misses out on one step of Sneak attack, but he gets alot in return:
- 2 levels of full BAB instead of 3/4. That can be a +1 at some levels
- Uncanny Dodge, he traded it away for Scout archetype now he gets it back
- +4 on Dex.
That last point needs a few more lines.
+4 Dex means +2 to hit and if you have Agile +2 to damage too. The sneak attack as you said is 3.5 on average, so the difference now is just 1.5.
I'm not doing the real math now, but I'm fairly sure that a +2 or +3 to hit has a far higher return than 1.5 damage, especially since alot of sneak attack dice hinge on the attack hitting or not.
Quick math: +2 means 10% more hit-chance, while doing 1.5 damage less. To come out even a hit has to do 15 damage on average. (on levels where its actually a +3 it's just 10 damage you have to do)
15 damage isn't so hard. 2d8 (thanks to catfolk rogue talent) are already 9, plus 2.5 from the claws is 11.5. Plus Dex which is probably above 20 now thanks to rage. Yes, definitely more than 15.
So by level 5 (rogue 3, barb 2) this would come out even or slightly ahead compared to full rogue. The higher your sneak attack dice gets, the more powerful to hit gets.
Also this quick math ignores the fact that thanks to the +2 to hit you now have a 10% better chance to confirm critical hits too, which do multiply the +2 from Dex as well, while it wouldn't the sneak attack.
Also the argument he could just buy a belt is wrong. Rage stacks with Belt, so he can still buy it and has +8 now.
Yes you miss out on Fast Movement, that's a bummer. But you're going to charge alot anyway with the Scout archetype I guess, which is already double your movement anyway, and catfolk get a +10 speedbonus when charging, so you can move 80 ft then... do you really need 100?
Also just realised, if you get the Bite from somewhere else, then a 1 level dip into Urban Barbarian gives you all of the above (exept Uncanny Dodge), and you don't skip the Sneak attack, you just delay it by one level.