I like the prereqs where they are. Makes it so you have to have a balanced character in stats to do certain things, rather than having every fighter a moron or whatnot.Although hitting hard and nothing fancy is actually quite effective and should be.At higher levels Paladins, barbarians and rangers do it better and they got other things going for them as well.
The fighter we have isn't very good at anything but murder, and even then his skillset is pretty limited." as A Man In Black put it.
There is more to a class than death and hit points. Saves and "variety of non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks" or a lack of that variety is a factor, etc.
"Better".
As a GM, I am a fan of dynamic campaigns. I really like when all the little obscure rules come out to play, not every session, but at least some time.
That kind of variation can really hurt classes like the paladin (when the enemies are neutral but must be stopped), barbarian (when rage can be negated or manipulated), and ranger (favored enemies, by definition, thwarted by variety).
Am I advocating using the rules to thwart these three classes all the time, just so the fighter can be "good"? Nope. All I'm saying is the fighter is a bit more reliable than these classes, because his "gimmick" isn't very exploitable. There are still things you can exploit (hey look, rules for donning armor!)
Running this game for a very long time has made me extremely wary about comparative statements of class power.
We are taking a break from Pathfinder for the rest of this year.
If I GM any campaign next year I will start using house rules heavily.
I will ban some spells, classes (and Archetypes) and feats.
I will change some feats, races, spells, skill uses and classes.
I will remove some pre reqs for feats and make a lot of feat scale.
I will create some new spells.
I will remove Combat Expertise as a pre-requisite for combat feats. The int pre req still stands though, but with Combat Expertise your int counts as +3 for any feat pre req.
Weapon fines is a bonus feat for most classes.
Fighters gets a boost to their will saves and they will get 4 skills per level.
Also I'm considering creating 3 (or 4) paths for the fighter.
1) The defender, gets Sense motive, heal and perception as additional class skills. They will also be able to heal theme in battle and they will get a bonus to reflex saves and acrobatics vs. getting tripped or losing their balance. They will also get a bonus to AC when using a shield
2) The Agile fighter (TWF or swashbuckler) will get acrobatics, bluff and stealth as additional class skills and they get a bonus to saves vs. effects that can impend their movement or/and blast spells. They will also get a bonus to AC when not using a shield. They can always strike with both their weapons even if they use a move action.
3) The striker (THF) will get Heal, sense motive and acrobatics as additional class skills. I'm not sure yet what other bonuses they will get. I'm considering giving them possibility to use cleave and/or vital strike with a charge.
vital strike will also be changes. It's only one feat that scales. It is no longer tied to weapon damage, but it grants you 2d6 at level 6, 4d6 at level 11 and 6d6 at level 16 (or perhaps 1d10, 2d10 and 3d10). Fighters will also be able to add their weapon training and weapon specialization to the damage.
Heal will be much more powerful in my game. Especially for classes that don't use magic.
Both the striker and defender will be able heal them self as a move action and later as a swift action X times per day.
I will grant all three fighter paths some additional powers that can be used as free actions or swift actions. One of them will be pounce X times / day or bonus feat called rapid strike. Rapid strike lets you move and full attack but with a penalty to attack and AC.
BTW, Rangers will also get acrobatics as a class skill.
- 4 skill points per level
- Give them Acrobatics and Perception as class skills
- Make bravery apply on saves against [charm] and [compulsion] effectsPersonally, I'd also give them a good Reflex save progression.
Something that would be very good for many characters, but Fighters more than others is removing the Int pre-requisite from Combat Expertise and the maneuver feats.
In fact, I'd also recomend condensing each Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver feat into a single feat that scales with BAB, like Power Attack.
But most importantly, give them something unique. Something cool to do in combat, besides Full-Attack every round.
+ 0.5
- More class skills. Not necessarily Acrobatics and Perception, but sense motive and some optional skill.
- 4 skill points per level
- Make bravery apply on saves against [charm] and [compulsion] and Fear effects.Good will saves
remove Combat Expertise as a pre-requisite for maneuver feats.
Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver feat into a single feat that scales with BAB, like Power Attack.
"most importantly, give them something unique. Something cool to do in combat" and out of combat"
Give them pounce X times per day.
Give them (and most classes) a bonus to shield AC if they wear a shield.
Give them something like Smite light.
Fighters already have Sense Motive. The real complaint I have isn't so much "I think bravery doesn't cover enough" as much as it is "I don't think bravery does enough on any level".
Being able to apply half of their armor bonus to touch would also do the fighter a world of good.
I like the prereqs where they are. Makes it so you have to have a balanced character in stats to do certain things, rather than having every fighter a moron or whatnot.Although hitting hard and nothing fancy is actually quite effective and should be.At higher levels Paladins, barbarians and rangers do it better and they got other things going for them as well.
The fighter we have isn't very good at anything but murder, and even then his skillset is pretty limited." as A Man In Black put it.
There is more to a class than death and hit points. Saves and "variety of non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks" or a lack of that variety is a factor, etc.
"Better".
As a GM, I am a fan of dynamic campaigns. I really like when all the little obscure rules come out to play, not every session, but at least some time.
That kind of variation can really hurt classes like the paladin (when the enemies are neutral but must be stopped), barbarian (when rage can be negated or manipulated), and ranger (favored enemies, by definition, thwarted by variety).
Am I advocating using the rules to thwart these three classes all the time, just so the fighter can be "good"? Nope. All I'm saying is the fighter is a bit more reliable than these classes, because his "gimmick" isn't very exploitable. There are still things you can exploit (hey look, rules for donning armor!)
Running this game for a very long time has made me extremely wary about comparative statements of class power.
Evil Lincoln, I have no intention of being snarky. If my post comes off as rude or snarky it is totally unintentional.
Better?
A high level barbarian, Paladin or Ranger will almost always out damage a fighter and they always got an ace up their sleeve as well.
To be frank. It's all about having fun. Making other full BAB classes suck so the fighter can shine isn't the solution. You say that it's not what you are saying, but really that is how it sounds.
It sounds a bit like "Traps make rogues shine so let's add traps".
Most foes in an AP are evil. Especially at higher level.
Most if not all AP have players guide that give players advice. Advice what classes and choices that are "Better" or "worse" in that specific campaign. That includes advice on favored enemies and with instant enemy, enmity fetish and the Guide archetype the favored enemy problem is gone at higher levels.
There are ways to make all classes suck, even spell casters. Adding anti magic areas in every game session. Or making healers suck (more) by making sure some damage are very hard to heal or impossible to heal. There are a simple way to make rogues suck more as well, just make them fight stuff they can't sneak attack. And fighters? Let the fighter that has specialized in weapon X be forced to use weapon Y.
As for the Paladin fighting neutral foes. Sure it happens and I don't mind it. But the Paladin still has its' good will saves, it immunities, it's lay on hands, Divine Grace, etc. If it needs a power boost it can use divine favor and/or Divine bond.
Sure you can spam the barbarian with Waves of Fatigue or Waves of Exhaustion, but I fail to see the point in it. A) They there are ways to deal with this, B) and there is a risk the game ends up being a race between GM and player.
This isn't a fighters vs. barbarians, Paladins or Rangers. It's a thread on ideas on how to boost the fighter. If you don't want to boost it, fine, but saying the class is cool isn't getting you anywhere in this thread.
@ Blue Star: Not fighters don't have Sense Motive as a class skill. I however agree that bravery is too week.
I will remove Combat Expertise as a pre-requisite for combat feats. The int pre req still stands though, but with Combat Expertise your int counts as +3 for any feat pre req.
Weapon fines is a bonus feat for most classes.
Fighters gets a boost to their will saves and they will get 4 skills per level.Also I'm considering creating 3 (or 4) paths for the fighter.
1) The defender, gets Sense motive, heal and perception as additional class skills. They will also be able to heal theme in battle and they will get a bonus to reflex saves and acrobatics vs. getting tripped or losing their balance. They will also get a bonus to AC when using a shield
2) The Agile fighter (TWF or swashbuckler) will get acrobatics, bluff and stealth as additional class skills and they get a bonus to saves vs. effects that can impend their movement or/and blast spells. They will also get a bonus to AC when not using a shield. They can always strike with both their weapons even if they use a move action.
3) The striker (THF) will get Heal, sense motive and acrobatics as additional class skills. I'm not sure yet what other bonuses they will get. I'm considering giving them possibility to use cleave and/or vital strike with a charge.vital strike will also be changes. It's only one feat that scales. It is no longer tied to weapon damage, but it grants you 2d6 at level 6, 4d6 at level 11 and 6d6 at level 16 (or perhaps 1d10, 2d10 and 3d10). Fighters will also be able to add their weapon training and weapon specialization to the damage.
@ Zark: For the change to combat exp, would someone still need a 13 int to
get say improved trip? Also will the +3 to int only apply to comabtfeats?
@ The thread.
What kind of things should fighters be able to do out of combat?
It isn't totally noncombat related, but maybe fighters can be able to train others and give them temporary bonus in combat or armor or weapon proficiencies. The bonus could even specific, like + 1 attack against against creatures 2 sizes or more larger, or + 2 to ac, during the surprise round.
This next idea is simmilar to Zark's paths. The fighter pick's "secondary class" which will give him extra class skills and makes
one of the saves be good depending on the class. Fort will of course stay good. Lets say two skill can be made to be class skills. It might be better if each choice just mandated the new skills so there isn't options inside options.
One last thing, I will like to make it clear that I don't think all of my ideas should be used together. I like clam chowder and french onion, but wouldn't them in one bowl.
Bravery on the fighter, strictly speaking, means he has a poorer Will save against fear then someone with a Good Will Save.
That is INSANE.
And the paladin? Cha to saves, Good Will save...And IMMUNITY TO FEAR, and later just about anything else taking a will save.
Will saves are NOT a classic weakness for fighters. They were INTRODUCED as a weakness in 3E. Fighters had overall the BEST saves of any class, across the board. Fighters, to make up for their lack of spellcasting, should be just like a monk and have all good saves. If the ability to raise the Dex mod of armor doesn't speak to some very advanced forms of agility training I'm thinking, and everyone knows how absolutely dedicated a professional athelete has to have his focus to do what he does. There is a reason that combat is seen as a mind game, and yet only spellcasters seem to be allowed to have a good will save.
Bah.
Of course, you could just give the fighter bonuses directly tied to his number of Fighter bonus feats, or have certain feats with extra bonuses. I'm thinking, for example, that Iron Will improves by the fighter's bravery bonus...effectively giving him a good Will save. Ditto Lighting Reflexes...just improve it, and Improved Initiative, by his armor training bonus.
==Aelryinth
I also like to throw out that you don't need to give a fighter more skill points...that's the Rogue's shtick.
instead, at every even level, give him a Training Bonus feat, that can only be applied to: Saving Throw Feats; Skill Focus; Skill training (+1 and 2 new class skills); Skill synergy (+2 to two skills); Skill breadth (+1 on broad sets of skills, like all knowledge or craft, and trained in any taken).
You have feats sub for skill points. Note that the combination of Alertness, Skill Focus (Perception) and Skill Training (Perception/Sense Motive?) would result, at level 10, with 1 rank in Perception, +16 on the roll...better then most level 10 characters and with almost no skill point investment.
Fighters should do things with feats. It's what Fighters are.
Furthermore, NOT having magic should be a bonus in its own way, not a penalty. Even the barbarian is embracing magic now...he's got supernatural powers! Bah.
==Aelryinth
A barb with Come adn Get Me will outdamage any fighter. THat's Robilar's Stance in 3.5, but only Barb's get it now. He gets an extra AoO every time he is attacked...no fighter can equal that damage layout.
And he gets Superstitious and a Con/Will bonus when raging.
A Ranger will generally do better then a fighter against his best favored enemy. At higher levels, any enemy can be his best favored enemy...and Gods help 'em if you use Favored Terrain cheese from the Horizon Walker class.
And he has a good Reflex save.
A Paladin will have a better weapon then the fighter at will with weapon bond and buffing spells, and against Evil foes will totally blow the fighter out of the water (at least, until he gets Aura of justice and extends the smiting to the fighter, too!).
And he gets...oh, hell, I'm not even going to list all the defenses.
==Aelryinth
Furthermore, NOT having magic should be a bonus in its own way, not a penalty.
How? By constantly fighting Barbarians with the Witch Hunter Rage Power?
@ Zark: For the change to combat exp, would someone still need a 13 int to
get say improved trip? Also will the +3 to int only apply to comabt
feats?
@ The thread.
What kind of things should fighters be able to do out of combat?
It isn't totally noncombat related, but maybe fighters can be able to train others and give them temporary bonus in combat or armor or weapon proficiencies. The bonus could even specific, like + 1 attack against against creatures 2 sizes or more larger, or + 2 to ac, during the surprise round.
This next idea is simmilar to Zark's paths. The fighter pick's "secondary class" which will give him extra class skills and makes
one of the saves be good depending on the class. Fort will of course stay good. Lets say two skill can be made to be class skills. It might be better if each choice just mandated the new skills so there isn't options inside options.
One last thing, I will like to make it clear that I don't think all of my ideas should be used together. I like clam chowder and french onion, but wouldn't them in one bowl.
Yes, I will keep the 13 int pre req, since the Int dump probably will be tempting with 4 skills per level.
I will probably let the +3 apply to any feats the martial classes can pick. Probably not for feats like Spell Specialization and Unsanctioned Knowledge, but I'm not sure yet.
A barb with Come adn Get Me will outdamage any fighter.I can make a 19 (0r 20 ) level fighter that every round can do 300+ damage with a STANDAR ACTION and it impose the shaken and sickend condition (-4 to saves) and force two DC 29-30 saves against stunning* and a DC 29-30 against daze, and remenber everything with a standar action.
* The enemy is stagered if he make the save.
a) this is not fighter vs. Class X thread
b) Most game don't run as high as level 19, especially not Paizo's APc) If you want to help people building fighters, great. Feel free to post your fighter in a spoiler. Or even better create a new thread and post it in that thread and add a link in this thread. As some of the DPR people say: If you can't prove it - it didn't happened. BTW, Are you aware what a 19 or 20 level Barb can do?
d) this is not fighter vs. Class X thread
So, keep this thread clean, but by all means help out with a good build. In a spoiler or better: in another thread.
Seriously, man, are you aware of what Come and Get Me can do? It can generate your Dex in extra attacks every round, if the enemy bothers to melee you. In short, your enemy attacks, and then they explode and die.
Being able to make 300+ dmg with a THW archetype is nice. Any Barbarian can grab Come and Get Me without resorting to archetype. You're making a very niche case there.
And then the multiple defenses that Barbs can get on top of that? Ugh.
---
The FIghter is generally going to be +2 behind the Ranger at all relevant levels against their FE's.
The ranger's attacks are with ALL weapons, not those specialized or weapon trained...so he's an awesome bowman AND melee guy against his foe, the Fighter is generally one or the other.
Arguing fighters are good because they can get Gloves of Dueling is like Arguing Barbs are good because they can get FUrious Weapons.
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Once you start adding up the power of a Paladin's weapon bond, and how often he can use it, you realize that a paladin is going to be +2 to +5 ahead of a Fighter in weapon quality at all levels, which does an excellent job of making up for lack of weapon training...and it is customizable, and the list eventually includes Brilliant. Add to spellcasting, and Smites, and the fact Smiting also works with ANY WEAPON...including bows...and yes, the Paladin gives up nothing to the fighter, and of course their defenses just blow a fighter out of the water.
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For being non-magical being a bonus, I mean that someone without an ounce of magical ability, supernatural or otherwise, should be able to gain a resistance to magic to compensate them for the loss.
Take a feat that says you may gain no spellcasting, spellcasting, supernatural or other magical abilities, nor may you Use Magic Device. You gain SR 12+Character level.
Then you further build on this with feats that emphasize training against magical attacks on the mind, necromancy, evading magical effects, avoiding scrying, etc. You have no magic, but become highly resistant to magic as a result.
That's what a Fighter should have. Spell Sundering, from the Barb, is an awesome idea all Fighters should be able to get access to, not just a dwarf a few times a day.
==Aelryinth
Actually the general idea is to buy a wand, and that takes care of the problem. ANd Pearls are loads cheaper and earlier then Gloves are. You are correct in that he doesn't spam it...but he doesn't need to. He only needs to use it when it's important.
Note that the barb can be employing a reach weapon, and can drink a potion without triggering Superstitious. Situational arguments have equally situational solutions. If he's going to be fighting stuff with reach, guess what he's going to do?
==Aelryinth
There should be puppet spells, they just shouldn't be so effective.
Only if the enemy have the same or lower reach than the barbarian.
No problem: Pounce + step up or Pounce and step up and strike.
Drop the Fighter vs. X in this thread, but if you are up to it create a DPR thread and make a fighter at level 17 (most AP don't run higher) and invite anyone to beat your fighter. Make it survive a full attacking foe as well, including foes that are spell casters (good will saves will be needed). I'm not being sarcastic. I would find it very helpful and interesting to see it.
Actually the general idea is to buy a wand, and that takes care of the problem. ANd Pearls are loads cheaper and earlier then Gloves are. You are correct in that he doesn't spam it...but he doesn't need to. He only needs to use it when it's important.
Note that the barb can be employing a reach weapon, and can drink a potion without triggering Superstitious. Situational arguments have equally situational solutions. If he's going to be fighting stuff with reach, guess what he's going to do?
==Aelryinth
Most BBEG at that level are evil outsiders or powerful undeads.
Or evil spell casters or evil dragons.Rangers will have at least of them as FE so he won't need to spam and he can use magic items, that said can we please keep on track ;-)
Charm/enchantment magic is already pretty weak and hard to hit with in this game, though. It doesn't work against a lot of monsters, and spellcasters, paladins, and monks all resist it petty well. If you give everyone else high will saves against it and you might as well just scrap that whole school of magic and replace it with Pastamancy or something.The thing is a Fighter has a weakness. That weakness should be overcome through players working together. Not a rule change.Then we will simply have to agree to disagree as I am not a fan of classes having weaknesses that require other classes to help you play catch-up. Especially, when it is a weakness that can get the rest of the party killed.
You got a point, but the fighter still has to rely on other party members to get healed, or get teleported or whatever.
Classes like rogues and barbarians also has crappy will saves, but get power to resist spells or/and reroll saves.I have given this some more thought.
I would not mess with feat chains except vital strike since it's too much work. I am however giving fighters greater weapon specialization for free if they have greater weapon focus.
Nor would I mess with bravery since not all fighters get bravery.
I will keep the int prrec to feats, but CE will let you count your int as +3 for feat pr reqs.
More class skills. I can see acrobatics, but I'm not convinced a fighter should get Perception. (If I create fighter paths the defender would get perception, the others not.). Giving them sense motive feels more logical.
Can anyone give me a reason - except it is one of the best skills in the game - why fighters should get perception as a class skill?
I will probably not give them pounce at will, but boost vital strike if you are a fighter. I will also create a fighter feat that let's fighters take a move and full attack with a penalty to attack and AC. I call it rapid strike.
Fighters will also get a bonus to AC if they use a shield.
Instead of giving them good will saves you could give them the ability to reroll will saves X times per day. Let's say at level 2 a fighter can reroll a will save once per day (or roll twice once per day). He can do this additional times at level 4, 8, 12 and 16. Or create a fighter only feat that lets him reroll saves and that scale with your fighter levels.
And I'm planning to give them some new feats that let them to stuff that you normally can't do. Rapid strike is one.
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Why Perception?
The Paladin has Detect Evil and minor divinations.
Spellcasters have all sorts of Detects, True Seeing and other divs.
A fighter trying to be aware of his foes and surroundings has only his only skills to fall back on, and likely not even a stat bonus to go along with it. Ask any combatant, situational awareness, particularly in combat, is a vital part of any combat skill.
The question is not why not have Perception on the Fighter skill list, it's the most ESSENTIAL of pure 'combat skills' you can actually put ranks into (actually, it's pretty much the only one other then Tumble that actually effects combat...and why isn't Tumble on the FIghter list?), but why isn't it on there already?
==Aelryinth
|
The problem is that nerfing other classes isn't fun and they are stealing everything the fighter does.
Fighter only feats? Samurai and others
Bonus feats? Many classes
Weapon training? Sohei monk
Hvy armor? Many classes
Armor training? A few classes, maybe just hellknight?
Bravery? Paladins do it better, banners, ect
Only you can protect this endangered species.
When making some house rule changes to the fighter there are some things to keep in mind.
Boosting the fighter for the players also means boosting all NPC foes. This means that all enemy fighters also will be more powerful. Players tend to forget this. When enemy start using pounce, can spot the party's stealth character and don't fail their will saves, that's when players start complaining.
Changes to the fighter means more work for the GM. Major changes means you have to redraw all fighters in an adventure path or any other adventure.
Players say X but mean Y. Fighters needs 4 skill points per level, good will saves, no feat pre req and more versatile class list, perception as a class skill. Let's translate this:
I want to dump int, cha and wis and not worry about dex and put everything I got into Str.
Good will saves and wisdom based skill as class skills mean I can get by with 10 wis or even 8.
4 skills per level and no int pre rec means I can dump int to 7.
No high dex for TWF mean I can get by with 12 or 14 dex.
[Sarcasm]Strangely enough[/sarcams] I haven't seen too many suggestion on flavor changes or suggestion on changes that would affect the fighter in non combat situations.
Any change to the core fighter must be matched in archetypes. That is why I don't like to mess with Bravery since all archetypes don't get Bravery.
Class blur: When X % of all classes get perception as a class skill why not give it as a class skill to all classes? Why even have class skills?
Some changes I plan to give the fighter will be applied to Cavalier and Samurai too.
So all full BAB classes except the Paladin will have perception as a class skill.
What about acrobatics? If fighter get's acrobatics as a class skill then I will sure as h*** give the ranger acrobatics. What about Cavalier and Samurai. Should they get it too?
Thinking about this some more I probably stick with 2 skills per level but I will create a fighter only feat that grants them 4 skills per level. This means I won't have rewrite all NPC fighters. I will remove tower shield prof from all fighters (and from the game - I don't like tower shield used as a shield) and grant fighters a bonus feat at level 1. Give them some more cool feats including Combat expertise that will be more powerful. The bonus to AC will be better and you will be able to count one stat or perhaps two as +1, +2 or +3 higher for the purpose of pre reqs to combat feats. Fighter's will also get greater weapon specialization and weapon focus for free. Smite evil, favored enemy and rang powers scale, why shouldn't the they fighter stuff. I'm also leaning on giving them penetrating strike for free.
Will saves? I'm not sure I really want to recalculate all NPC will saves. I rather give fighters a bonus to saves vs. mind affecting attacks and/or create a fighter feat or an ability that let the rerole will saves X times per day depending on level.
Pounce? I'm not sure. I probably go with the rappid strike feat at level 6. Two attacks at highest BAB (3 with TWF) as part of a charges but with a penalty to attack (and AC). Perhaps let the fighter choose not to charge but to move and attack more than once any time during the move. All attacks at full BAB but with a penalty to attack and AC. This means you won't benefit from bonus attacks from haste, but all your attacks will be at full BAB. At level 11 it's 3 attacks (4 with TWF) and level 16 it's 4 attacks (5 with TWF) or give them pounce at level 16.
I'll will rework the heal skill as well (or boost it with a feat). Perhaps create a (fighter?) feat so you can use it as a swift action X times per day.