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Hey everyone, I've got a question. In a game I GM, there is a summoner PC with a biped eidolon who took the "reach" evolution for his elven curve blade attack. The eidolon does not use any natural attacks, just the curve blade.
Now, the question I have is: since an eidolon has to take the reach evolution for each natural attack (i.e. each limb) should the summoner's eidolon have to take "reach" again for the second arm in order to power attack from reach?
I am leaning towards yes because the way I see it is that one arm is longer than the other so the power attack couldn't function properly unless arms were of even length. I give him reach with normal attacks but with power attack idk.
Let me know what you guys think, and if I'm wrong then so be it, I honestly wasn't sure.
edit: for reference here's the power attack reference from the PRD
Whether or not a player can use the reach evolution to affect a weapon attack is suspect. I do not allow it in my game because I don't believe it is how the rule was intended.
At first I thought that the reach evolution was specifically applicable only to the Eidolon's natural attacks so I rechecked it and it mentioned "one attack", not "one natural attack".
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Whether or not a player can use the reach evolution to affect a weapon attack is suspect. I do not allow it in my game because I don't believe it is how the rule was intended.At first I thought that the reach evolution was specifically applicable only to the Eidolon's natural attacks so I rechecked it and it mentioned "one attack", not "one natural attack".
So on the same topic...if the Eidolon wants the extra damage from 2 handed attack with the elven curve blade, does he have to take reach for the second arm? I lean towards yes, but would be curious as to what everyone else thinks.
What do you mean each limb?
Claw attacks are natural attacks. Claw attacks you assume both hands are claws.
reach for natural claw attacks would allow both arms to use reach.
Not just one claw.
I can understand a tail attack, bite, ect
so if you put reach on claw attacks it would include the two hands/arms.
same should be for reach.. on normal attacking arms/hands in general.
So taking reach would allow you to reach with normal attacks with weapons.
.. maybe im crazy but this makes sense to me. then again i could be wrong
The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.
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The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.
This is what I was thinking, but can't really find any book evidence other than my own interpretation of that line. I am the GM of the game so I'll rule it this way until I hear otherwise from Paizo.
The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.This is what I was thinking, but can't really find any book evidence other than my own interpretation of that line. I am the GM of the game so I'll rule it this way until I hear otherwise from Paizo.
Yeah. The rules say to pick one attack and for that attack, its reach increases by 5 feet. If it was designed for multiple attacks, it would say "that attack," it would say "those attacks."
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The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.
Actually, I believe that is incorrect. In Ultimate Magic, they have a number of pre-built Eidolon examples, and this is one of them:
Aboleth
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
Here, they apply the Reach Evolution to all the Tentacles. I believe that the Reach evolution was intended to apply to a TYPE of natural attack, and the wording in the APG is an error. This would bring it in line with all other evolutions that affect a Type of Natural Attack.
I also, however, believe that it's invalid to apply the Reach Evolution to a Weapon.
The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.Actually, I believe that is incorrect. In Ultimate Magic, they have a number of pre-built Eidolon examples, and this is one of them:
Aboleth
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
Here, they apply the Reach Evolution to all the Tentacles. I believe that the Reach evolution was intended to apply to a TYPE of natural attack, and the wording in the APG is an error. This would bring it in line with all other evolutions that affect a Type of Natural Attack.
I also, however, believe that it's invalid to apply the Reach Evolution to a Weapon.
You're right. I added up all the points, and it comes to 25 with reach selected only once but effecting two tentacles. Would that mean if the eidolon had 4 tentacles, all would have reach?
I wonder which book has the typo or misunderstanding of how they meant for reach to work.
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@elamdri - That's interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. I'll have to agree that I don't think it was initially designed for weapon attacks but I allowed it at first and am not going to change it at this point (level 7 in a well established campaign and the Summoner and eidolon have a theme and backgrounds that tie into the story, as well as party roles).
Another interesting question for everyone here - say this eidolon gets Enlarge Person cast on it. Does his reach go to 15? I am about to rule no and I'll show you why (emphasis mine):
To me, this means that Enlarge person does not add to reach, only makes it 10. I say this because the Large evolution specifically says that if you have reach, your reach increases again with being large. Am I reading too much into this?
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The reach evolution says to pick one attack, not one type of attack. The claws evolution gives you two claw attacks. In order to get reach for both claws, you'd need to select the reach evolution twice, once for each claw attack.Actually, I believe that is incorrect. In Ultimate Magic, they have a number of pre-built Eidolon examples, and this is one of them:
Aboleth
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
Here, they apply the Reach Evolution to all the Tentacles. I believe that the Reach evolution was intended to apply to a TYPE of natural attack, and the wording in the APG is an error. This would bring it in line with all other evolutions that affect a Type of Natural Attack.
I also, however, believe that it's invalid to apply the Reach Evolution to a Weapon.
You're right. I added up all the points, and it comes to 25 with reach selected only once but effecting two tentacles. Would that mean if the eidolon had 4 tentacles, all would have reach?
I wonder which book has the typo or misunderstanding of how they meant for reach to work.
I believe the error is in the APG. My reasoning for this is that almost all of the Eidolons evolutions which affect natural attacks force you to select a TYPE of natural attack. Reach is the only one that doesn't work that way.
My theory is that yes, if you took Reach (tentacles) and had 4 tentacles, all 4 would have reach. Likewise, if you have 6 Claws and took Reach (Claws) all 6 claws would have reach.
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@elamdri - That's interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. I'll have to agree that I don't think it was initially designed for weapon attacks but I allowed it at first and am not going to change it at this point (level 7 in a well established campaign and the Summoner and eidolon have a theme and backgrounds that tie into the story, as well as party roles).
That's fine, I wouldn't take that away from a player mid-game, unless it was a ridiculous problem. I was just stating that I don't believe that it was intended to work that way, although unlike my other statement, I don't have anything in particular to back that up, apart from my reasoning.
Another interesting question for everyone here - say this eidolon gets Enlarge Person cast on it. Does his reach go to 15? I am about to rule no and I'll show you why (emphasis mine):** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
To me, this means that Enlarge person does not add to reach, only makes it 10. I say this because the Large evolution specifically says that if you have reach, your reach increases again with being large. Am I reading too much into this?
Your error here is that you missed the 1st part of the spell:
You quoted "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed. "
but you forgot the 1st line: "This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size."
If you look at This table you will see the following:
A Biped is a Tall creature and a Quadruped is a Long creature. Therefore, every time a Biped goes up in size, it gains 5 ft of reach. The Quadruped also gains 5 feet of reach, but not until it reaches Huge Size
Therefore:
Lets say you had a Biped (Tall) Eidolon that was Huge. That Eidolon has a Reach of 15 Feet.
Now if you cast Enlarge person on him, the Eidolon becomes Gargantuan and now has a 20 Foot reach.
Now, If the Eidolon has the Lunge Feat, the reach increases to 25 feet.
If the Eidolon is wielding a Reach weapon, like a Lance, the reach increases to 30 feet.
If you allow the Eidolon to use the Reach Evolution to affect the Lance, the reach increases to 35 feet.
That I believe is the Maximum possible reach for an Eidolon.
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If you allow the Eidolon to use the Reach Evolution to affect the Lance, the reach increases to 35 feet.
That I believe is the Maximum possible reach for an Eidolon.
If he wield a whip you can get that reach up to 40ft and if you work your way up the Whip Mastery Chain he will be threatening AoO at 35ft. I'm not sure you you can get it higher then 40ft though.
Enlarge Person should not affect the reach of any eidolon -- even those of the biped form are not humanoids.
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Enlarge Person should not affect the reach of any eidolon -- even those of the biped form are not humanoids.
The Large/Huge Evolution states the following:
"Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge. The eidolon gains a +16 bonus to Strength, a +8 bonus to Constitution, and a +5 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –4 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –2 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +2 bonus to its CMB and CMD, 10-foot reach, a –4 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –8 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, its reach increases to 15 feet (10 feet for all other base forms). Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. These bonuses and penalties replace, and do not stack with, those gained from becoming Large. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this option."
This means that the Biped Eidolon is a Tall creature for the purposes of the Size charts, and therefore, every time it's size increases, it gains 5 feet of reach. The Enlarge Person spell increases the Eidolon's Size Category by one, so it gains 5 feet of reach. Simple as that.
You are referring to the line:
"A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed."
in Enlarge Person. All this line does is tell the reader that a Humanoid is classified as a Tall Creature for the purposes of the Size Chart. Whether or not a creature gains reach when it's size increases is entirely based on whether it is classified as Tall or Long in the Size charts, not whether it's an outsider, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or whatever.
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Your error here is that you missed the 1st part of the spell:
You quoted "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed. "
but you forgot the 1st line: "This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creatures size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size."
If you look at This table you will see the following:
A Biped is a Tall creature and a Quadruped is a Long creature....
edit: going to rephrase the question...
Eidolon is medium sized biped with reach of 10 (reach evolution). Summoner casts Enlarge Person on the Eidolon, now does the Eidolon have reach 15? I say no.
end of edit...
The problem with that chart is that there is no "long" or "large" modifier to the medium size. So say he goes from medium to Large...then his reach is 10 feet with that size upgrade. (also I don't see on that chart where it says biped is tall and quad is long, just as an aside). I still don't see where it increases his reach to 15 feet if he goes from medium to large, even if he had reach at medium size.
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edit: going to rephrase the question...Eidolon is medium sized biped with reach of 10 (reach evolution). Summoner casts Enlarge Person on the Eidolon, now does the Eidolon have reach 15? I say no.
end of edit...
Except that if you read the Large evolution, it says:
"If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total."
For the purposes of determining reach, there is no difference between casting Enlarge person on a Biped or giving the Biped the Large Evolution.
The problem with that chart is that there is no "long" or "large" modifier to the medium size. So say he goes from medium to Large...then his reach is 10 feet with that size upgrade. (also I don't see on that chart where it says biped is tall and quad is long, just as an aside). I still don't see where it increases his reach to 15 feet if he goes from medium to large, even if he had reach at medium size.
The rules don't explicitly say that Biped is Tall and Quad is Long, but if you read the rules from the Large/Huge evolution that I posted just above your post, you will see that when the medium Biped becomes a large Biped, it's reach goes from being a 5 to a 10 and when it goes from being a Large Biped to a Huge Biped, it's reach goes from being a 10 to a 15. This is exactly the progression of Tall creatures on the Size chart. Likewise, if you look at the rules for a Huge Eidolon, all other base forms gain 10 reach when they are Huge Size, this is identical to the reach progression for Long creatures. Therefore, while the rules don't explicitly say that one is Tall and the others are long, we easily and correctly infer this fact from the operation of the rules. Likewise, since we now know that a Biped is Tall, we know that if we increase it's size via Enlarge person, it will gain another 5 ft of reach. Also, we know from the ruling of the Large/Huge evolution that the Reach Evolution stacks with reach gained by Size increases.
The reality of the rules is that reach, as far as I am aware, always stacks. For example, If you had a regular PC who was enlarged, who had lunge, and a reach weapon, he would have a 20ft reach. All the Biped Eidolon is doing is gaining 10 extra feet of reach from increased size and another 5ft from the reach evolution, which the rules explicitly say stacks.
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edit: going to rephrase the question...Eidolon is medium sized biped with reach of 10 (reach evolution). Summoner casts Enlarge Person on the Eidolon, now does the Eidolon have reach 15? I say no.
end of edit...
Except that if you read the Large evolution, it says:
"If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total."
For the purposes of determining reach, there is no difference between casting Enlarge person on a Biped or giving the Biped the Large Evolution.
The rules don't explicitly say that Biped is Tall and Quad is Long, but if you read the rules from the Large/Huge evolution that I posted just above your post, you will see that when the medium Biped becomes a large Biped, it's reach goes from being a 5 to a 10 and when it goes from being a Large Biped to a Huge Biped, it's reach goes from being a 10 to a 15. This is exactly the progression of Tall creatures on the Size chart. Likewise, if you look at the rules for a Huge Eidolon, all other base forms gain 10 reach when they are Huge Size, this is identical to the reach progression for Long creatures. Therefore, while the rules don't explicitly say that one is Tall and the others are long, we easily and correctly infer this fact from the operation of the rules. Likewise, since we now know that a Biped is Tall, we know that if we increase it's size via Enlarge person, it will gain another 5 ft of reach. Also, we know from the ruling of the Large/Huge evolution that the Reach...
The problem with that chart is that there is no "long" or "large" modifier to the medium size. So say he goes from medium to Large...then his reach is 10 feet with that size upgrade. (also I don't see on that chart where it says biped is tall and quad is long, just as an aside). I still don't see where it increases his reach to 15 feet if he goes from medium to large, even if he had reach at medium size.
I quoted the Large evolution and the spell Enlarge Person in another post above. My point is that when you cast enlarge person, the spell explicitly states that you gain base reach 10. Nothing says that it stacks, nothing at all. In fact I think it makes sense that the evolution says that reach stacks this because enlarge person DOES NOT stack.
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I quoted the Large evolution and the spell Enlarge Person in another post above. My point is that when you cast enlarge person, the spell explicitly states that you gain base reach 10. Nothing says that it stacks, nothing at all. In fact I think it makes sense that the evolution says that reach stacks this because enlarge person DOES NOT stack.
You're missing the point. The reason that you have a reach of 10 is NOT because the spell gives you a base reach of 10, but rather it's because the spell increases your size category and since humanoids are tall creatures, they gain 5ft of reach every time their size increases.
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You're missing the point. The reason that you have a reach of 10 is NOT because the spell gives you a base reach of 10, but rather it's because the spell increases your size category and since humanoids are tall creatures, they gain 5ft of reach every time their size increases.I quoted the Large evolution and the spell Enlarge Person in another post above. My point is that when you cast enlarge person, the spell explicitly states that you gain base reach 10. Nothing says that it stacks, nothing at all. In fact I think it makes sense that the evolution says that reach stacks this because enlarge person DOES NOT stack.
Other than your opinion, which I certainly respect, I haven't seen any evidence of this. Even the chart you quoted earlier doesn't say that each size increase ups your reach by 5 feet. I have tried to find evidence of this but haven't been able to find anything like that. Honestly, that is the way that I've been ruling it in my games - you go up a size and you gain reach. I ask because there's nothing that says you gain 5 feet of reach every time you go up a size category. Enlarge person gives you a reach of 10 feet specifically and to me that means that it doesn't stack.
Enlarge person is written assuming it is cast on a person. Because except For a few cases it always is cast on one. So its size changes assume the creature follows the tall progression.
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Other than your opinion, which I certainly respect, I haven't seen any evidence of this. Even the chart you quoted earlier doesn't say that each size increase ups your reach by 5 feet. I have tried to find evidence of this but haven't been able to find anything like that. Honestly, that is the way that I've been ruling it in my games - you go up a size and you gain reach. I ask because there's nothing that says you gain 5 feet of reach every time you go up a size category. Enlarge person gives you a reach of 10 feet specifically and to me that means that it doesn't stack.You're missing the point. The reason that you have a reach of 10 is NOT because the spell gives you a base reach of 10, but rather it's because the spell increases your size category and since humanoids are tall creatures, they gain 5ft of reach every time their size increases.I quoted the Large evolution and the spell Enlarge Person in another post above. My point is that when you cast enlarge person, the spell explicitly states that you gain base reach 10. Nothing says that it stacks, nothing at all. In fact I think it makes sense that the evolution says that reach stacks this because enlarge person DOES NOT stack.
Well, as Mojorat stated, Enlarge Person normally is only castable on a Humanoid. The fact that it can be cast on an Eidolon is an anomaly of the summoner class. As Mojo said, since it is normally only affects Humanoid, the spell assumes a Tall progression on the size chart.
I should clarify that I misspoke about the 5ft reach increase. What I should have said is that a Tall creature gains 5ft of Reach every time it's size increase beyond Medium except when it become Colossal.
Tall Creature Progression
Fine 0 Ft. Reach
Diminutive 0 Ft. Reach
Tiny 0 Ft. Reach
Small 5 ft. Reach
Medium 5 ft. Reach
Large (tall) 10 ft. Reach
Huge (tall) 15 ft. Reach
Gargantuan (tall) 20 ft. Reach
Colossal (tall) 30 ft. Reach
As you can see from this chart, from Fine to Tiny, a Tall creature has no reach, which means it must enter it's opponent's square to attack it. From Small-Medium, it has a reach of 5ft. From Medium-Gargantuan, it gains 5ft of reach every time it's size increase. Then from Gargantuan-Colossal, you gain a nice 10ft increase to your reach.
Now, here is the Long Creature Progression
Long Creature Progression
Fine 0 Ft. Reach
Diminutive 0 Ft. Reach
Tiny 0 Ft. Reach
Small 5 ft. Reach
Medium 5 ft. Reach
Large (long) 5 ft. Reach
Huge (long) 10 ft. Reach
Gargantuan (long) 15 ft. Reach
Colossal (long) 20 ft. Reach
For Long Creatures, it follows the same reach rules for Tall Creatures from size Fine-Medium. Unlike Tall Creatures, a Long Creature does not gain 5ft of reach when going from Medium-Large. From Large-Gargantuan, a Long Creature gains 5ft of reach like a Tall creature, although it is 5ft behind in terms of total reach. From Gargantuan-Colossal, it gains another 5ft of reach, but since the Tall Creature gains 10, the Tall Creature has 10ft of reach more than a Long Creature of Colossal Size.
The reason that I said it increases by 5 feet is that we were talking about a Biped Eidolon, and since a Biped Eidolon starts out medium, it effectively gains 5ft of reach each time it's size goes up because it's not possible to increase a Biped Eidolon beyond Gargantuan size. If it was, I would have mentioned that the reach increases by 10 when going to Colossal size. Likewise, since it's not possible to shrink an Eidolon beyond Small size, I also didn't feel the need to talk about the tiny size rules.
If we analyze the part from Enlarge Person in question:
"A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed."
Notice that it does NOT say that the spell gives the creature a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet, but rather it says that a Large Humanoid's space and natural reach simply IS 10 feet.
Enlarge Person does the follow:
1: Increases Size
2: Increases Strength by +2
3: Reduces Dexterity by -2
Increasing the Creatures size has the following effects:
1: It increase the creatures space and reach
2: It increases the size, and therefore damage dice of weapons
3: It applies a size penalty to attack and AC and a Size bonus to CMB and CMD
However, when we look to the chart to determine the creature's size and reach, there are two entries. Fortunately, the spell tells us which entry to use for Humanoids (Thus telling us that Humanoids are tall).
This is slightly off topic, but I just learned that I was partially wrong with my reach rules.
A Large or larger creature using a reach weapon doesn't add 5 feet of reach, but rather doubles it's reach, but can only attack creatures that aren't within it's normal reach
Example: A Gargantuan Biped Eidon with Lunge and the Reach Evolution for a Lance has a natural reach of 30ft. (The Gargantuan Size has a natural reach of 20, lunge increases this by 5 and so does the Reach Evolution). When it wields a Lance, it has a reach of SIXTY! but cannot strike creatures 30ft or closer to it. So it can strike creatures between 60 and 35ft from it, but not creatures 30ft or closer. Yikes!