Say for example tossing sand into someone's eyes to blind or reflecting light off your blade's edge.
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"But Jiggy! If the foe is in melee with someone else, they are still in melee!"
"But Jiggy! If the foe is in melee with someone else, they are still in melee!"
But how exactly are you going to hinder them when they're not in your face? I can't exactly see how a kick to the groin is going to be effective when they're 20 feet away from you, nor any of the action subjects the OP listed.
Yes, it does not specify, but unless you got melee reach of 50 feet, you're not going to do many "Dirty Tricks" other than a Trap (or Trap-like Spell), which isn't considered a "Dirty Trick" in terms of actions.
RAW is very vague and poorly worded, but RAI is pretty dang obvious.
Throw poop in their face. That should at least inflict the blinded status.
Unless you're in an outhouse or have some on-hand at the time of the attempt (which is very questionable), it's not even feasible.
It's up to the DM in terms of what can be considered a Dirty Trick and acceptable to conveyable penalties and the like, so it's DM's call ultimately. If I were a GM, I'd require attempts to be in melee range, especially since an attempt at Dirty Tricks provokes attacks of opportunity unless you have feats.
Examples include kicking sand into an opponent’s face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy’s pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undone
All of those cited examples are melee range requirements, meaning that as far as RAI is concerned (and somewhat RAW), melee range/reach is required.
@Jiggy: I get it, but I also know that it's a load of bull, too. :)
Get a familiar monkey. Mentally tell him to poop in your hands. Instant dirty trick at range. Don't say that doesn't work because monkeys do throw poop all the time.Throw poop in their face. That should at least inflict the blinded status.Unless you're in an outhouse or have some on-hand at the time of the attempt (which is very questionable), it's not even feasible.
It's up to the DM in terms of what can be considered a Dirty Trick and acceptable to conveyable penalties and the like, so it's DM's call ultimately. If I were a GM, I'd require attempts to be in melee range, especially since an attempt at Dirty Tricks provokes attacks of opportunity unless you have feats.
Examples include kicking sand into an opponent’s face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy’s pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undoneAll of those cited examples are melee range requirements, meaning that as far as RAI is concerned (and somewhat RAW), melee range/reach is required.
@Jiggy: I get it, but I also know that it's a load of bull, too. :)
A feint is a kind of trickery to catch somebody flat-footed. If I can't feint at a range (that is, outside my melee reach), I sure as hell don't see why you should be able to fling poo 50 feet away and call it a dirty trick, especially when you can see it coming.
If I can't feint at a range...
Be careful, this could turn into a very long thread.
How about using a whip? melee weapon with a range increment, to perform the dirty trick?
just a thought...
Using a weapon's reach still counts the character performing the trick to be within melee range. I wouldn't see why not, though the rule seems to indicate that the characters must be adjacent (since the examples it listed has such a thing as a requirement).
It would also require the target to be in melee combat with the character, as using a Reach Weapon compared to a target using just a standard weapon would be very difficult (if even possible) to use Dirty Tricks against. This means that the target you are attempting to perform a Dirty Trick on must also threaten you.
I am sure as hell no interpreter, but in a realistic scenario I wonder how you're going to kick sand in somebody's face or smack them with a low blow when you're 15+ feet away, the only way to even get an attack like that is with a whip.
Gash their forehead so the blood blinds them.
Gash their forehead so the blood blinds them.
The biggest problem with this is that many people(/GMs) may consider this a viable Dirty Trick, others not so much. The rules says it's 100% GM fiat/discretion as to what is considered a viable Dirty Trick, and as such this also means the rules itself varies from GM to GM. (Yes, even in PFS games, unless they have some sort of addendum or concept explicitly stated for PFS games that isn't elaborated in the rules.)
Sure, you may think that to be a viable Dirty Trick; myself not so much, since it's just an effect of hitting that spot. It's not fighting dirty to target the head of a creature, as it's quite a fair target (decapitation, anyone?). I'd find that kicking sand in someone's face, landing a low blow, unusual skin contact (such as grabbing at a combatant's privates in a clash to catch them off guard, making them be flat-footed for a round or two), are much more viable as Dirty Tricks. A crack to the face causing bleeding isn't anything special or dirty in a fight, as it happens all the time, especially in combat such as this.
But what if you have natural reach due to your large size but don't want to use a melee attack even though your target is within range? You can still use a ranged attack at the extent of your reach without provoking an AoO from your target unless they have the same reach as you.
Since your officially in melee with them even though your not making a melee attack couldn't you use Dirty Trick with a ranged attack then?
If you were a Vanaran with Enlarge Person cast on you then you would essentially be a Large sized monkey and you could produce your own poop to throw in their face. Although when it left your hand it would immediately return to Medium size poop.
Also, I can't seem to find what kind of action it is to poop. It isn't really an autonomic action as it requires some effort so it definitely isn't an immediate action. Maybe a swift action? That way it would be limited to the number of times it could be performed in one turn at least.
Use the whip to grab their helmet and spin it(many of them have horns or spikes on top), blinding them. Use the whip to flip their cloak over their head, blinding them. Use the whip to hit them in a certain place, I can do that mind you, with a towel, which is not even designed as a weapon, and sicken them....
Dirty tricks also have a caveat that they will take be cleared in a standard action by the target.
And since there are feats that generate bleed, I wouldn't use that one as a great example really.
I can come up with several ways, all of them verifiable in real life, and I can use a bullwhip in real life as well, in case anyone doubts whether those will work, i'm willing to test them lol. (but you have to sign a non-prosecution waiver first)
This is exactly what the GM's want to see; creativity with the Dirty Tricks maneuver. I don't even think the first one would be legal though (since using the whip to grab at an object/creature would normally be a grapple maneuver attempt to grab at the target, which is a standard action, combined with the Dirty Tricks maneuver, which is also a standard action). But it is 100% GM fiat for credibility, so I suppose it can be possible. The other two are more self-explanatory.
The standard action rule only applies if it is done with the Greater Dirty Tricks feat. It is otherwise a move action.
@ Lune
I personally wouldn't think so. The difficult thing with the Dirty Tricks maneuver is that its credibility and allowability are 100% GM fiat (what does that stand for, by the way?), and it varies from GM to GM. An official ruling would have to come from either a PFS GM, or one of the Devs as to whether the attempt must be in melee range and with a melee attack, or if it can deviate some. We can say what is allowed, and at the same time we can't, since this is a rule that varies from session to session.
There needs to be a way to do something akin to Dirty Trick at range. I once had an argument with my GM when I wanted to throw a Chakram through a Curtain to cut it and have it fall on an enemy that was under it.
There needs to be a way to do something akin to Dirty Trick at range. I once had an argument with my GM when I wanted to throw a Chakram through a Curtain to cut it and have it fall on an enemy that was under it.
Slightly off topic, but I've had decent luck approaching issues like that by saying, "I want to throw a Chakram through the Curtain to cut it and have it fall on the enemy under it, what mechanic would you like me to use."
Tying it on topic, for a cool trick beyond the scope of the rules, I think it's easier to let the GM find a way to let it mechanically work than to argue for a specific rules interpretation like dirty trick.
Generally, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately what usually happens after I get a neat idea like that is I try to build my next character around it. I've seen pissy GMs (who I no longer play with) who yell, "just fight like a normal person," when I try to get combat creative.