Beast Totem, Lesser question?

[Duskblade]

Okay, this what the Beast Totem, Lesser rage power does:

While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier.

Now, my question is this: say a barbarian is wielding a two-handed weapon (great axe, whatever), and starts raging with this ability. Is it then possible to say that the barbarian gains the claw attacks for his feet?

That way, when he makes a full attack action, he can make his normal attacks with his great ax but also still gets 2 claw attacks as well (granted, at a -5 penalty of course).

I only ask this because when you consider what an Eidolon can do with claws, it really does make sense:

Claws (ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

That part in bold face is what made me consider the idea in the first place. Again, any clarification would be great appreciated. Thanks again.

[wraithstrike]

Claws in the book are placed on the hands for every bipedal monster I have seen in the book(Bestiary). It is fair to assume that is the way it is for all bipedal creatures.

A GM could allow the claws to be put on the barbarian feet, but I would not expect it to happen for most of them.

The eidolon and summoner also break from a lot of traditional rules and expectations. They are so full of rules exceptions, that they can't really be used as an example for what is normally allowed.

[gnomersy]

wraithstrike wrote:

Claws in the book are placed on the hands for every bipedal monster I have seen in the book(Bestiary). It is fair to assume that is the way it is for all bipedal creatures.

A GM could allow the claws to be put on the barbarian feet, but I would not expect it to happen for most of them.

The eidolon and summoner also break from a lot of traditional rules and expectations. They are so full of rules exceptions, that they can't really be used as an example for what is normally allowed.

While I agree this is almost certainly the intent the rules are completely shoddy as far as defining natural attack abilities.

And since they have added quite a bit of access to these abilities, I think Paizo could do with releasing a pdf defining the standard slots for any natural attack and pointing out which ones work in conjunction with the others(ex. gore & bite?). Then any ability which does not specifically allow altered placement would go into those slots.

[LearnTheRules]

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that only quadrupeds or something with more than 4 limbs can have claws on their feet. I'll try and find it now.

[Power Flower]

PRD, Combat section on Natural Attacks wrote:

You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).

(my emphasis)

I think this is pretty clear as far as RAI goes. While not explicitly stated anywhere as far as I know, the assumption throughout is that humanoids fight using their hands. Exeptions from this are spelled out pretty clearly.

The Beast Totem description does not explicitly allow attacks with feet, so no, you can't.

(As wraithstrike noted, eidolons are not typical. IIRC James Jacobs said they were intended to let you "play the monster", that is let you emulate any reasonable Bestiary monster, to open up possiblities that you otherwise wouldn't have. So it is a mistake to try to extrapolate from eidolons to any other playable anything).

[LearnTheRules]

Nope can't find it atm, someone else might be able to but I've gotta go off now, I'll look later.

Personally I wouldn't allow it, a human trying to perform claw attacks with his feet would fall flat on his arse most of the time :P

[gnomersy]

Power Flower wrote:

I think this is pretty clear as far as RAI goes. While not explicitly stated anywhere as far as I know, the assumption throughout is that humanoids fight using their hands. Exeptions from this are spelled out pretty clearly.

Humanoids fight with their hands except when they don't fight with their hands such as when using armor spikes where they hug people to death, or be a monk/unarmed and kick things, or use boot blades and cut people with their feet strangely exactly like one would use clawed feet.

While I agree that I do think the assumption is that the claws are clawed hands specifically. I think that building your rules based on assumptions is generally the worst possible way to go about it and expecting that to be sufficient explanation for your rules is asinine to say the least.

The fact is the rules don't say that the claws are on your hands and we have several instances allowing people to fight using their feet including claws on monster feet, that alone is sufficient basis to allow it unless the rules say otherwise which is why I think the guys(and girls) at paizo should spend the 3 hours it would take to do a write up pdf clarifying the issue of natural attacks for PCs or monster creation.

[Darkflame]

just to bud in but it might take 3 hours to type up clarifications it also needs to be tested in combat evry official errata might be alowing another trapdoor to open for other rules so its not just typing somthing up its alot more than that.

but as most stated it even says somwhere in the rules you can only do those natural atacks if the hands are free i think.

[Jeff Clem]

Now what happens if you get claw attacks from to different class aka:

Ranger: Aspect of the Beast- Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).

Barbarian: Beast Totem, Lesser (Su)While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier.

Both are considered primary attacks. I could see the Beast Totem, Lesser claws being used as the primary for the hands because they do more damage and the Aspect of the Beast- Claws for the feet and count as the secondary attack getting the penalties(-5/-3 multi attack feat) 1/2 str damage.