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The explanation I've heard given was that guns are not predominant enough in Golarion for anyone but the base class of gunslinger to have become proficient in their use.
Because the guns come from Alkenstar, in the Mana Wastes, it wouldn't make sense for any of those crazy finger-waggling mages to have picked up a gun and made it do cool stuff. Same goes for those holy crusader types and everyone else for that matter.
While it makes me sad my gun-mage won't be seeing the light of PFS, I do see where it could be coming from as far as the setting is concerned. Guns are just still too new to Golarion for these classes to exist.
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I asked this very question, and I was told this issue might be revisited after Ultimate Equipment. Apparently it hasnt yet. Alkenstar is not the only place for Guns, open your inner sea wold guide on pg 142 and look at Numeria.
Psh... Nobody likes Numeria.
But in all seriousness, that was the explanation I was given. Seeing as how I don't actually own the ISWG, I haven't had the chance to read through it.
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I'd like to see all guns banned from PFS. There is nothing more ridiculous that a X4 critical that uses a touch attack. And I have seen it multiple times in a single PFS game.
As someone who ran a gunslinger in the play-test pre- Ultimate Combat, and whose "main" PFS character is a Gunslinger (stating in order to highlight that I probably do have bias - but the trick to beating bias is to admit it and try to account for it), I have to disagree.
In the real world, once guns started to be used in medieval wars, they were just as devastating when used against "traditionally" armed/armored foes, so x4 critical on a touch attack is reasonable IMHO.
That being said, even as a gunslinger player, I think guns are *Hella* broken with regard to their reload time. That was the price you paid in real warfare for fielding people with muskets and such - they get one volley, maybe two, before the enemy is up close and personal - in PFS you can take iterative attacks after a certain point and literally blow that disadvantage out of the water.
To the OP's question, even though I too wanted to try playing a "Gene Starwind" type Spellslinger, I agree that limiting the number of classes that can use guns in a mainly high-fantasy world is a good decision (again just my own personal opinion - I don't think Mike or anyone on-staff is going to publicly post rationale for decisions they make behind closed doors), as the result is just some people going "ah well" on the forums - the opposite (throwing upen the doors) might have resulted in mass chaos among PFS authors whose scenarios could be devastated by a "firing line" of musket masters lining up...
...must...resist...urge...to...form...local party of 4 musket masters and two cleric/rogues...
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I think it really just boils down to flavor, and not wanting too many classes with availability to guns. So, Gunslinger or nothing, sadly. But there are still so many types of characters you can create with just a gunslinger :)
If thats the case, odd that Guns are singled out in that. Any character with a UMD that is decent can pick up a wand.
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I think it really just boils down to flavor, and not wanting too many classes with availability to guns. So, Gunslinger or nothing, sadly. But there are still so many types of characters you can create with just a gunslinger :)If thats the case, odd that Guns are singled out in that. Any character with a UMD that is decent can pick up a wand.
How is that odd? Magic is everywhere on Golarion. Guns aren't.
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That has the potential to be cool.Because guns are so rare in Golarion, these alternate builds simply don't exist.It is more accurate to say, they are rare on Golarion...
Which is another good reason to see them not opened.
I am hoping we will see them opened up as Con Boons.
I think the archetypes/prestige classes that have not been unauthorized due to extreme rarity would make good options for Boon rewards.
On the other hand I am not a fan of leaving archetypes and prestige classes out "Just" for boons.
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I actually love the way they set up black powder warfare in Golarion. It's not so new that no one has ever seen it before, but neither is it so wide spread that every army in the world has replaced pikemen with rows of muskets (Nobunaga Oda be damned.) Magic prevails as the go to source for destroying large swathes of enemies, tearing down huge fortifactions, and much more. The Gunslinger probably is phasing out the Archer Fighter rather than the Wizard. In a world where Magic and Gunplay may entwine at some point in time, I just say wait and see. Also, I felt Dwarves should have been the ones with Guns. -_- But thats just my bearded opinion.
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That being said, even as a gunslinger player, I think guns are *Hella* broken with regard to their reload time. That was the price you paid in real warfare for fielding people with muskets and such - they get one volley, maybe two, before the enemy is up close and personal - in PFS you can take iterative attacks after a certain point and literally blow that disadvantage out of the water.It's the paper cartridges that are broken - in fact, any equipment that reduces action/time seems to be broken...If you ban Paper Cartridges, gunslingers can no longer compete in the 5+ tiers of combat. Gunslingers start out strong, but the size of their spotlight wanes as the levels tack on.
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Because guns are so rare in Golarion, these alternate builds simply don't exist.It is more accurate to say, they are rare on Golarion...
Which is another good reason to see them not opened.
I am hoping we will see them opened up as Con Boons.
Nah. I'd like to see a boon of a SINGLE advance fire purchase being allowed but that is cause I can't use Explosive missile on my musket.
Still haven't gotten a decent justification on the 2handed firearm ban on it. BUT given some of the OP firearm antics I HAVE seen it leaves me wondering.
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I don't think the gunslinger is as effective as shooting things as a fighter archer. Plus, guns have to get pretty close to get the touch attack, which puts the gunslinger in harms way for sure. Not that harm's way is ever that bad in PFS, but you get the idea.
The math has been done on this by folks with more computational skill than I and the numbers came out fairly close.
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Something I'm surprised no one else has noticed/brings up in discussions like these...
Pathfinder’s world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns, which is also the default category of gun rarity.
And...
Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline Gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves.
Far as I can tell, Mike is just enforcing what is canon for the campaign setting. It isn't a balance issue so much as one of theme. The Ultimate Books present an array of non-setting specific options (including Guns-For-Everybody archetypes); Mike just trims access on them down to what fits the setting.
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Nah. I'd like to see a boon of a SINGLE advance fire purchase being allowed but that is cause I can't use Explosive missile on my musket.Still haven't gotten a decent justification on the 2handed firearm ban on it. BUT given some of the OP firearm antics I HAVE seen it leaves me wondering.
Are you asking why are Advanced Firearms banned?... That is is an easy one, there are no Advanced Firearms in Golraion.
Those you will never see in PFS.
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Nah. I'd like to see a boon of a SINGLE advance fire purchase being allowed but that is cause I can't use Explosive missile on my musket.Still haven't gotten a decent justification on the 2handed firearm ban on it. BUT given some of the OP firearm antics I HAVE seen it leaves me wondering.
Are you asking why are Advanced Firearms banned?... That is is an easy one, there are no Advanced Firearms in Golraion.
Those you will never see in PFS.
That wasn't what I was asking. I was saying if I was asked what sort of special gunsling boon I would like, it would be to get a ONE-TIME purchase of a SINGLE advanced fire arm. (with the ability to make/buy shells for it)
Truthfully though, I'd just like the ability to buy magic ammo in for the musket I use without having to buy 50 at a time. Something like changing chronicle awards for "+1 Holy arrows (limit 3)" to +1 Holy (any 1 ammo type) (limit to 3 purchased)
I play as a Varsian who grew up in the Mana Wastes/Arkenstar region who came to Absalon to investigate her family associations with the Pathfinders. If PoP had ome out earlier I'd haven gone shield marshal rather than alchemist. My build is to help the party and not 'bend the rules till they scream', I have a few issues with gunslinger treatment but they are mostly minor (Like the explosive missile question I keep bringing up, but I'm going to buy a pistol to use it when I make Alch 4)
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If you allow Katana blades ect from across and ocean, surly weapons being produced on your own continent are not that rare.How is that odd? Magic is everywhere on Golarion. Guns aren't.
What's that got to do with your comparison of firearms to the prevalence of magic?
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What's that got to do with your comparison of firearms to the prevalence of magic?If you allow Katana blades ect from across and ocean, surly weapons being produced on your own continent are not that rare.How is that odd? Magic is everywhere on Golarion. Guns aren't.
You took that out of context. The arguement was about flavor, and keeping the flavor of a Gunslinger unique. But we do not keep other classes flavor so unique.
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At the risk of bringing an extreme (and probably insulting) sarcastic response, I think so many people ban guns because they consider guns in fantasy to be badwrongfun. Some games don't allow them because they don't fit, but the badwrongfun claims are much more common in my experience.
This would be my response - firearms don't belong in a high fantasy setting in my opinion. That's one reason I don't like Shadowrun (but love Cyberpunk) is the mixing of genres. I don't mind firearms in low fantasy settings, like WFRP, but magic is much less common and magic items are pretty much nonexistent in WFRP.
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At the risk of bringing an extreme (and probably insulting) sarcastic response, I think so many people ban guns because they consider guns in fantasy to be badwrongfun. Some games don't allow them because they don't fit, but the badwrongfun claims are much more common in my experience.This would be my response - firearms don't belong in a high fantasy setting in my opinion. That's one reason I don't like Shadowrun (but love Cyberpunk) is the mixing of genres. I don't mind firearms in low fantasy settings, like WFRP, but magic is much less common and magic items are pretty much nonexistent in WFRP.
Personally, I happen to like guns in my fantasy just fine. I love Steampunk, the Weird West, and Magic, so why not combine all of the above? I'm down with it.
However, so many people are so staunchly against the concept of that sort of blending, that it's a little disheartening to look around and find that gunslingers don't tend to make it past about 5th level most of the time because when they die, some players refuse to help bring another gun-toting adventurer back into the fray.
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One of the things that turned me on to pathfinder was that is was differant than other fantasy settings. It was such a mix of cultures and differant elements that I thought it had real potential. If you take away these elements, it becomes another fantasy game, and frankly there are more than enough of those out there.
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Pathfinder is it's own thing. and part of that thing is that guns aren't up to the level of the American Old West. Nor are they animesque in the style of the spellslinger. Guns being exactly what they are is part of what makes Golarion unique.
One of the things that turned me on to pathfinder was that is was differant than other fantasy settings. It was such a mix of cultures and differant elements that I thought it had real potential. If you take away these elements, it becomes another fantasy game, and frankly there are more than enough of those out there.
I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.
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I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.Pathfinder is it's own thing. and part of that thing is that guns aren't up to the level of the American Old West. Nor are they animesque in the style of the spellslinger. Guns being exactly what they are is part of what makes Golarion unique.
One of the things that turned me on to pathfinder was that is was differant than other fantasy settings. It was such a mix of cultures and differant elements that I thought it had real potential. If you take away these elements, it becomes another fantasy game, and frankly there are more than enough of those out there.
I find this comment, sarcastic as it is, hilarious. Because it shows you aren't even reading comments here, much less the portion of Ultimate Combat discussing Firearms. In Golarion. And then you're pointing fingers and claiming the people commenting don't have the setting book and therefore don't know what they're talking about.
Golarion is defined as being Emerging Firearms, meaning almost exclusively early firearms and limited access to even these. I quoted this, verbatim, above. From Ultimate Combat.
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I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.Pathfinder is it's own thing. and part of that thing is that guns aren't up to the level of the American Old West. Nor are they animesque in the style of the spellslinger. Guns being exactly what they are is part of what makes Golarion unique.
One of the things that turned me on to pathfinder was that is was differant than other fantasy settings. It was such a mix of cultures and differant elements that I thought it had real potential. If you take away these elements, it becomes another fantasy game, and frankly there are more than enough of those out there.
I find this comment, sarcastic as it is, hilarious. Because it shows you aren't even reading comments here, much less the portion of Ultimate Combat discussing Firearms. In Golarion. And then you're pointing fingers and claiming the people commenting don't have the setting book and therefore don't know what they're talking about.
Golarion is defined as being Emerging Firearms, meaning almost exclusively early firearms and limited access to even these. I quoted this, verbatim, above. From Ultimate Combat.
The op is asking about archetypes. Such as spellslinger. 142 ISWG. As far as UC is concerned this isnt the only instance in which later material has contradicted the previous. Prone Shooter feat comes to me off top of my head from UC. You can not look at the picture of Numeria, with the machine gun toting mech, and still belive that Golarion is defined as being Emerging Firearms. Golarian is a mixed bag, as should be the society if it wants to represent that mix.
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The op is asking about archetypes. Such as spellslinger. 142 ISWG. As far as UC is concerned this isnt the only instance in which later material has contradicted the previous. Prone Shooter feat comes to me off top of my head from UC. You can not look at the picture of Numeria, with the machine gun toting mech, and still belive that Golarion is defined as being Emerging Firearms. Golarian is a mixed bag, as should be the society if it wants to represent that mix.
I'm not saying this stuff doesn't exist in Numeria. It's a great region based off a really whacky 2nd Edition adventure. Good stuff, but pretty contained. The tech isn't widespread.
I'm pointing out that the reason you don't see the Gun-focused archetypes in PFS is that guns are not common or advanced yet on Golarion outside of some specific organizations, regions, or political entities.
Golarion is emerging firearms because it is stated explicitly as such. The guidelines for access to firearms follows the Emerging Firearms listing, with Gunslinger and the Gunsmithing feat being necessary to make guns plausible weapons for PCs. Just because something is possible in the setting doesn't mean it's common, open-access in PFS, or otherwise useable by everyone.
Otherwise I'd already be badgering Mike to put mechs on chronicles.