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As an addition to my previous posts, i would like to add...
Been reading references to PrC's as boons available from Cons etc.
Not specific to that, but (IMO) ANYTHING that is restricted to the few, and not the general player base, is simply, crap.
In this massive land mass i live in, there is 3, quote 3 cons in any given year within driving distance from me. Of those, 1 is a 2 hour drive, the other is 6.
The one lone left, happens to fall on a long weekend, when my job requires me to transport YOU the player to your venues, and to and from home.
Boo hoo etc i hear you cry, however, why should i, and/or any other person who has not the time, money or location miss out?
We support our hobby too, in the fashion we can.
My impression of PFS was that it is a fair and equitable system. Special privilege is a detraction from that me thinks.
Kk, flame away.
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As an addition to my previous posts, i would like to add...
Been reading references to PrC's as boons available from Cons etc.
Not specific to that, but (IMO) ANYTHING that is restricted to the few, and not the general player base, is simply, crap.
In this massive land mass i live in, there is 3, quote 3 cons in any given year within driving distance from me. Of those, 1 is a 2 hour drive, the other is 6.
The one lone left, happens to fall on a long weekend, when my job requires me to transport YOU the player to your venues, and to and from home.
Boo hoo etc i hear you cry, however, why should i, and/or any other person who has not the time, money or location miss out?
We support our hobby too, in the fashion we can.
My impression of PFS was that it is a fair and equitable system. Special privilege is a detraction from that me thinks.Kk, flame away.
It's been said, I don't know how many times, that boons (especially race boons) are the best way for Paizo to draw people to Cons. They're cheap to make and very popular.
I understand that you're frustrated by this but why not plan a Con trip once a year so that you can attend and awesome Con and get some boons? People travel to Cons all the time, I don't think a 2 hour drive is too unreasonable a trip to take for a good Con.
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I think that his point was not to make any other published character options con only, which is a completely reasonable stance to take.
Any discussion of con boons is always going to have a nasty tinge, as the last two posts have shown, because it is a very real division of the player base into haves and have-nots. I wouldn't be so flippant with the "I'm sure you can make it to a con" line if I were you, since for those who actually cannot, it can be a sore spot to be excluded from the highest levels of participation in a very real way.
At Gen Con, I received quite a bit of feedback, both positive and negative. One of the things that came up a large majority of the time was access to new things. People were unhappy I had not opened up the specific named magic items from the Ultimate equipment. People were angry I had not opened up Hellknight Signifier PrC. I also heard that Chronicle sheets are worthless and people want us to make them count and mean something and be desirable.
Making chronicles unique and interesting is an excellent idea but restricting access to items we've already paid for is a bad way to do it imho. What's the point of buying a new book if we then have to jump through hoops to use it? If an item is included in a legitimate source and doesn't break the game then it should be available. Players feel entitled to this access because Paizo sold it to them for use in the game. They're probably angry because they feel like they're being ripped off if you restrict access - "you took my money and you're now refusing to let me use it?"
There are alternatives to make chronicles interesting, such as boons and vanities only attainable on certain chronicles. The Hellknight example would be an excellent opportunity for a vanity of some description. Named or unusual weapons would also work, such as the Glaive of a Bearded Devil, forged in hell. You can't buy those at the local smithy (and it has no special properties out of the hands of a Bearded Devil, so it's just for the cool factor). Named magic items might provide a boon when dealing with certain organisations that know or respect their origins. Just don't introduce a one per table restriction or anything like that (because it will cause needless arguments).
How many RPG superstar magic item entries could be added to chronicles? That would get a lot of interest and you must have thousands to choose from. They could even see some use in the game when the BBEG pulls them out; and they don't need to be powerful, they just need to be rare to be interesting.
Edit: in fact the cheaper items would probably be best as people can buy them for a laugh, like a memento of a holiday. :-)
"I got that blade from BBEG X" is a lot more compelling story than "Yeah, I just bought that".
I have 15 characters, some of which are retired now - what are the chances that a specific item turned up for the right character? It's more frustrating than anything else. A +1 weapon isn't worth remembering anyway unless the party got TPKd in the process - and the rapier of a certain Magus doesn't even appear on the chronicle. The only interesting thing on that chronicle is a cheap signet ring, for roleplaying reasons.
Boons, favours and vanities that any character can use would be far more useful.
Paizo doesn't only take our money for PFS; limiting the Open access to a subset of the full ruleset is just plain smart.
Restricting access in this way doesn't increase my enjoyment of the game in any way, it reduces it. I played LG and I don't recall item access with any affection. As I only buy books for use with PFS (even though I do play an intermittent home-game) restricting access just reduces the value for money I get from Paizo products. And to be honest I have so many options now it's not like I *need* to buy anything else. Adding another barrier to making that purchase just makes me less likely to buy.
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Paizo doesn't only take our money for PFS; limiting the Open access to a subset of the full ruleset is just plain smart.
I dont know if I'd agree that causing a large segment of the player base that cant attend Cons or performs poorly on whatever criteria at those cons to actually win a boon is "just plain smart". As seen on this thread it causes a lot of those people, myself included, to feel left out and disenfranchised of the material Ive paid money for.
That said, if there were alternative methods of getting boons such as GM credit I would be perfectly happy to run even more games than I already do to earn meself a catfolk boon! Long live the catgirls! ;)
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I understand that you're frustrated by this but why not plan a Con trip once a year so that you can attend and awesome Con and get some boons? People travel to Cons all the time, I don't think a 2 hour drive is too unreasonable a trip to take for a good Con.
Some people do indeed do that. When it involves many more hours of travel than that, arrangements for a weekend of babysitting and the expending of several hundred units of currency of choice, some people do so less frequently. And for others, the only way to get to a con is an intercontinental flight. I know that if I ever get to GenCon/PaizoCon it's likely to be literally a once-in-a-lifetime event.
While I'm fine with the existence of con-only boons, gaining them is by no means as trivial as you make it sound and we should take special care in choosing what to limit in this way.
Personally, I like the idea of boons evolving through a lifecycle of con-only -> chronicle-only -> open for all. That way even if you are not able to go to a con, or able to get the appropriate chronicle, you do eventually get the chance to take part.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Ive been to a two conventions this year and the wacky non-sensical way in which you actually earned one made it so I had about a 25% chance per game of getting something (had to roll over a 15 on a D20). As a dice rolling loser I didnt get anything in the 6 games I played. If thats the cookie to bring me to a con its a huge FAIL.
If it's anything like the two cons I've been to this year that used a system like that, using a second token gave you an extra +4 on the roll. so with six tokens from six games you could have absolutely guaranteed yourself one boon, or chosen two opportunities with a 65% chance.
Mind you, I'm pretty sure the required roll for those cons was higher than "over 15", so it made sense to use multiple tokens on a single roll. Giving up a 25% chance merely to add 20% to the probability of a different roll isn't such a tempting proposition.
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I don't know how I missed this thread before but it was just referenced in another one, so I read this one and want to chime in. It really comes down to "fun." It would be crushing to realize your sorcerer was never going to be a dragon disciple but your Paladin with an Oath against the Wyrm could because you didn't know what was on the chronicle ahead of time. I agree with Alexander Damocles on this one. I played Quest for Perfection
Definitely for Prestige Classes, I'm in favor of a "transferable" boon. I like the fact that it makes chronicles worthwhile and gives you a nice surprise. Instead of forcing it on one character, allow the character who went through the scenario to "train" one of the player's other characters to use the boon assuming once they meet all the prerequisites. Just make that particular chronicle two pages long and have the GM initial what character the PrC boon is being assigned to (_____-__). Even a new character. This mechanism has been used before.
Not sure about gear or other boons. Named items are cool, no doubt. But with Prestige Classes you have to plan your character around them (meeting the feat, skills, and other prerequisites). Missing out on a ten-ring broadsword isn't the end of the world. While the Quest for Perfection boon is cool, it's not something so different (like a PrC) that NOT having it will change your character idea. I could go either way.
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Adding some onyxes to the thread necromancy....
First off, I would also like chronicle sheets to be more meaningful. It is laughable to play a tier 10-11 and have potions of invisibility and cloaks of resistance +1 listed. That being said, I am also not a fan of favors that give tiny, fidgety bonuses in incredibly specific circumstances; they are a pain to remember, and can waste time while players scour their chronicles to see whether it is THIS character who has a +1 bonus to diplomacy in Jalmeray, or gets +1 AC against spears, and does a javelin count as a spear, anyway?
Favors would be much easier to use, more memorable, and more enjoyable if they either gave a small, constant bonus that could easily be added into a PCs normal character stats, or, better yet, were of use during downtime, such as access to purchase items, one-shot discounts, free or discounted spellcasting, etc. People tend to remember free stuff more than tiny, conditional bonuses, and any shuffling through chronicles would happen outside of the time constraints of a timed spot.
Regarding PrCs, I think that a great opportunity is being missed with tier 1 adventures. Prestige classes should be exactly that, prestigious, and it makes sense that there should be limited access to many of them, particularly the ones that have strong ties to an in-game organization. First Steps gets a little old after the 10th run-through as a player or GM, so why not start a new arc of tier 1 adventures tied to each of the factions, each of which grants access to a few faction-relevant prestige classes and other boons unique to that faction?
The problems with introducing a PrC in a normal scenario have been expounded upon at length in this thread, from missing out by playing with the wrong character, to getting access too late to meet prerequisites in a timely manner, to encouraging metagaming in order to avoid the first two issues. Granting access to a PrC in a 1-5 scenario could allow some PCs to still take the class, but any higher tier means that even if the player did manage to play with a PC that was interested in the PrC, without prior knowledge of access to a restricted item, they are unlikely to be able to meet prerequisites before retirement.
Having a Taldor-only introductory adventure, where the PCs get a chance to really get into their faction's goals and personalities, and gain access to otherwise-restricted PrCs like the Lion's Blades, means that players can plan ahead, get access early enough to make the appropriate decisions, keep such rules items special but available, and make the factions a bit more than an extra PA and discounted raise dead spell. Being able to freely replay a tier 1 removes the problem of gaining access with the wrong character, and the level 1 rebuild means that a player who gains access to a PrC they like can start down the path to achieve it without undue hassle. If it seems too problematic having 10 new tier 1 adventures, make them mini-missions that grant less or no XP or gold, like the expeditions program that has been bandied about.
TL;DR--stop listing junk items on chronicles; make boons more interesting and less fidgety; use tier 1 adventures to grant access to limited, faction-appropriate PrCs and other items.
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I thought I would add to the thread necro as well.
Things I would like to see:
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I would suggest that a reward like a prestige class would need to be applyable to any character you want, rather than having to place it on the one character that goes through the quest. Any otherwise will just be fountains of tears, fountains.
Given the choice between con only boons and scenario boons, scenario boons all the way. I know plenty of people who don't go to cons and never will, and are apparently just 'not worthy' of race booms, ever, no matter how long and hard they play.
That seems sad.
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Some players do not live in larger areas of the U.S. and access to cons and the like is severely limited, making some boons unattainable. I am not opposed to cons getting early access or some things, but when it comes to major things like races, it would be nice to see them work their way into the modules
They might be doing this somewhat with races. It remains to be seen though if they will continue the precedent and open up more races for season 5.
I know how you feel though, since I live in China right now. Next year I might be moving to Singapore, which makes playing a little easier but the nearest con boons are still in Australia. I have seen several instances though of people giving race boons to those out in the middle of nowhere who othewise have no chance to get them, so in the mean time at least the PFS community is quality enough to understand the problem.
(psst. If anyone who regularly attends cons is reading this, I have been looking for an Undine boon for a while now)
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snip
I know plenty of people who don't go to cons and never will, and are apparently just 'not worthy' of race booms, ever, no matter how long and hard they play.
That seems sad.
It doesn't have anything to do with someone "being worthy" of the boon ... it has everything to do with the boons being used as a marketing tool. While it's sad that you don't feel you can go to cons, there are ways to make it cheaper.
Volunteer as a Tier 1 GM -- generally, if the con is large enough (like gencon), you get your hotel and badge paid for. The cost of the con towards you then is the gas money to get there and food (and you can find some decent inexpensive food options as well). That can easily cut the cost of the con budget in half. If you don't want to be a Tier 1 GM, you can still volunteer as as Tier 2 and get your badge paid for, then find 3 others that want to split the cost of gas to drive and the hotel room -- you don't have to stay in the super expensive close hotels, there are outlying hotels that are rather inexpensive and for the cost of a cab ride (because parking is expensive)you can get to the con for the day.
There are options, other than complaining that you "aren't worthy" of a con boon and continuing to spread the untruth that con boons are only for those "worthy" of receiving them. Con boons go to people who make the effort.
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I understand the sentiment of not being in a area where there are Cons. I live in a fairly PFS scarce region, rather than throw up my hands, I am trying to organize PFS where I am located. If we get a sizable enough player base, we will able to organize our own little Con and the lure of boons will help draw in more players by my of thinking.
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snip
I know plenty of people who don't go to cons and never will, and are apparently just 'not worthy' of race booms, ever, no matter how long and hard they play.
That seems sad.
It doesn't have anything to do with someone "being worthy" of the boon ... it has everything to do with the boons being used as a marketing tool. While it's sad that you don't feel you can go to cons, there are ways to make it cheaper.
Volunteer as a Tier 1 GM -- generally, if the con is large enough (like gencon), you get your hotel and badge paid for. The cost of the con towards you then is the gas money to get there and food (and you can find some decent inexpensive food options as well). That can easily cut the cost of the con budget in half. If you don't want to be a Tier 1 GM, you can still volunteer as as Tier 2 and get your badge paid for, then find 3 others that want to split the cost of gas to drive and the hotel room -- you don't have to stay in the super expensive close hotels, there are outlying hotels that are rather inexpensive and for the cost of a cab ride (because parking is expensive)you can get to the con for the day.
There are options, other than complaining that you "aren't worthy" of a con boon and continuing to spread the untruth that con boons are only for those "worthy" of receiving them. Con boons go to people who make the effort.
I get that you are trying to help but it seems to me that you, like many others in this thread are missing the point when giving out all these glib ideas. There are people who it is actually impossible for them to attend a con, even if they are able to secure a spot as a tier 1 DM. If someone does not have a car or cannot spare the vacation time or just lives way too far away from any cons, they are SOL in terms of shiny boons.
I am fortunate that next year I will be within feasible reach of events with boon support (still a major plane ride and literally a continent away) but for lots of people it will still be impossible. I also find it super condescending when people come into these boon discussions with things like "just have your own event large enough" or "going to cons is actually really easy". Again, I know that you are trying to help, but there are clear haves and have nots here and a destinct lack of perspective.
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I totally understand that there are time when it is impossible. I had to miss out on cons due to circumstances beyond my control and it sucks. It just really annoys me when people complain and use words like "worthy" or even the "have and have not" phrase you used.
This isnt about rewarding the few. The boons are a marketing tool dangled in front of us like a carrott and we are the mules. Some of us are jusr abke to chomp the carrott while we are walking and some aren't.
I see people complaining about not getting a boon because it is so expensive... i offer options.... if they then choose to expound on why it is to ecpensive that is their justification forcomplaining
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Some players do not live in larger areas of the U.S. and access to cons and the like is severely limited, making some boons unattainable. I am not opposed to cons getting early access or some things, but when it comes to major things like races, it would be nice to see them work their way into the modules They might be doing this somewhat with races. It remains to be seen though if they will continue the precedent and open up more races for season 5.
I know how you feel though, since I live in China right now. Next year I might be moving to Singapore, which makes playing a little easier but the nearest con boons are still in Australia. I have seen several instances though of people giving race boons to those out in the middle of nowhere who othewise have no chance to get them, so in the mean time at least the PFS community is quality enough to understand the problem.
(psst. If anyone who regularly attends cons is reading this, I have been looking for an Undine boon for a while now)
Just wondering if you saw this thread
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Let me chime in a few things, and if they were covered in the thread, I do apologize.
1. Players ( and GMs) don't realize how hard of a job that Mike has. He deals with the entire campaign, goes to many conventions, maintains a weekly blog, deals with players on the boards, and at times has to maintain sessions. People need to lay off of him on some stuff.
2. I do wish that certain boons on sheets can be applied to new characters. I currently have the Axebeak boon on a character that will never use it (a halfling summoner) and Riddywhipple on another character that won't use it.
3. I do have some players that have in the past moaned and groaned about not having access to certain boons because they didn't want to go to a con because they didn't see the value in paying X amount of money just to play Pathfinder. It's hard sometimes to not be a jerk and tell them "Suck it up, Cupcake".
4. I would prefer personally more boons that tie the campaign together.
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So this is an old thread brought back from the dead, so I am not sure how relevant it is anymore but I might as well add my opinion... ;)
Boons are great, I love them, either Holiday Boons or Con Boons or Special event Boons.
They are good because they can be used by anyone on any character.
Scenario Boons are only useful when they can be used by any character, I am not a fan of opening up Class specific boons from scenarios because it encourages boon hunting and if a player does not do that they lose out on it because that boon is only good for that PC and if it is not useful for that PC it is wasted.
Scenario Boons should be only things that can be used by anyone. There are some great examples of that, but there are also examples of the exact opposite.
Quest for perfection is an example of a bad placement of a boon. As an example I have seen many people play that just for boon hunting, to include myself! The first part of that I played in we had 4 players all of us were Paladins just for the boon after part 3. That is a terrible thing to encourage, and I would like to see these type of boons go away.
Any Class specific boons should be left to boons that can be placed on any pc by the player.
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Quest for perfection is an example of a bad placement of a boon. As an example I have seen many people play that just for boon hunting, to include myself! The first part of that I played in we had 4 players all of us were Paladins just for the boon after part 3. That is a terrible thing to encourage, and I would like to see these type of boons go away.
I think the idea is to encourage people who play that scenario with the "wrong" character to go back and run it so the credit can go to the "right" one.
4. I would prefer personally more boons that tie the campaign together.That boon really tied the campaign together, did it not?
An example would be the boons in three of the session 4 7-11 scenarios that deal with the Cult. From rumors I've read and heard, they are going to have an effect later on that. That's what I mean by tying the campaign together.
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I think the idea is to encourage people who play that scenario with the "wrong" character to go back and run it so the credit can go to the "right" one.
I have heard that before, but I don't think that is a good encouragement. We have enough GM encouragements to add one that frustrates players.
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I understand the sentiment of not being in a area where there are Cons. I live in a fairly PFS scarce region, rather than throw up my hands, I am trying to organize PFS where I am located. If we get a sizable enough player base, we will able to organize our own little Con and the lure of boons will help draw in more players by my of thinking.
+1 You may not succeed in creating a con, but you may create a community and have lots of fun. On the other hand, the bar for boon support (I think) is either 5 or 9 tables over 72 hours.
When I encounter someone with this attitude, I want to help, perhaps sending him a boons after I earn some more next week at my local con or giving online advice on venues or whatever.
I agree with Saint Caleth in that people are willing to be generous.
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I understand the sentiment of not being in a area where there are Cons. I live in a fairly PFS scarce region, rather than throw up my hands, I am trying to organize PFS where I am located. If we get a sizable enough player base, we will able to organize our own little Con and the lure of boons will help draw in more players by my of thinking.+1 You may not succeed in creating a con, but you may create a community and have lots of fun. On the other hand, the bar for boon support (I think) is either 5 or 9 tables over 72 hours.
When I encounter someone with this attitude, I want to help, perhaps sending him a boons after I earn some more next week at my local con or giving online advice on venues or whatever.
I agree with Saint Caleth in that people are willing to be generous.
Thanks Kerney, that's why I love PFS, because it really is a community.
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Mike, we can't please everyone - and keeping a small handful of items exclusive isn't a problem.
Just because a book is available does not mean that all of its information has become "world knowledge".
My advice:
Keep things as they are. It's not broken, don't fix it.
Boons for limited/rare things should be at conventions, then 12 months later as adventure or promo certs, then 12 months later available as open resources. This is, of course, assuming that rare/limited items from the new books are limited to a VERY small subset of the released material.
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That boon really tied the campaign together, did it not?An example would be the boons in three of the session 4 7-11 scenarios that deal with the Cult. From rumors I've read and heard, they are going to have an effect later on that. That's what I mean by tying the campaign together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQLP1dj_t8 (NSWF - Language)