Create Undead / Animate Dead - How exactly does it work?

[Sciris001]

I've read both of their descriptions, and I have also asked friends this and looked at a few threads on here about it. I've found some help, but not much. My question is fairly simple, how do they work?

Obviously, you need a corpse or corpses to cast either. But once you do, how is the strength of the undead determined? I've always thought Animate Dead just added the skeleton/zombie template to whatever it was animating. But now that I look at Create Undead and the various comments on here concerning it, is this true still? It would make more sense. And I am sure this is how it works.

Create Undead, however, seems a lot trickier to me. I have read a lot that the undead listed in the spell are all baseline generic monsters from the Bestiary. However, comparing their CRs to the level required to cast... Why exactly would I want to create a CR2-4 undead at Lv16, when I could raise a skeleton quicker which would be a lot more powerful? Even the Summon Monster spells are more useful than this. The only monster I see that is remotely worth casting the spell would be a Banshee. By then, you're epic level already. Anything weaker is just a waste.

I've tried to find somewhere saying that the spell actually adds a template to the created creature, rather than the generic description in the bestiary. But sadly, I'm not seeing this. And this is what my friends are telling me is the case as well. I'm not looking to break the game by controlling 3-4 epic level banshee sorcerers or whatnot, but the strength of most of the undead in the list is very.... disappointing.

HOWEVER. I have noticed something. It's not written anywhere, but could the undead created with this spell have an HD equal to X? Where X is some stat that scales with the caster's power (such as CL). This would make MUCH more sense. Or, even moreso, would the NPC or PC not gain a template, but instead just have their own HD mimic the undead created?

Example: Casting Create Undead to make a Ghoul out of a Rogue that's got 10 HD. After the spell is done, a Ghoul with 10 HD is created.

What EXACTLY determines the undead's HD/abilities with this spell?

[Sciris001]

bump

[Are]

The vast amount of random corpses you find won't be high-level adventurers, but rather 1st-level commoners. So unless you specifically set out to find specific corpses, animate dead will typically create lower-CR'ed creatures than create undead does.

A Mohrg (granted by create undead at CL 18th) is a CR 8 creature. Using any random graveyard (even one filled with 1st-level commoners), an 18th-level wizard or sorcerer could create 12 or more Mohrg's per day. Even without being able to control them, that seems pretty powerful to me.

If you have the "Undead Revisited" book, there's plenty of additional uses for the create undead spell, at various caster levels.

[Brambleman]

Aside from skeleton and zombie, most undead are not templates, but the monsters from the bestiary. Most undead don't have an oficial template.

Yes... the list is disappointing. The spell is a bit under powered, but there are clever uses for it. Shadows are a good investment, strength damage remains relevent.

For templated undead, the template tells you how to calculate HD. A ghoul has no template. A vampire keeps the Levels, A zombie looses all non racial HD (Min 1 HD).

[Sciris001]

I'm not sure about that. I've been in a lot of games where we've killed NPCs at or beyond our level. I guess it all depends on the games, though. I will check that book, however.

[Are]

Of course the NPCs you kill during encounters are often at or above your level. But there isn't a near-limitless amount of such NPCs :)

[Mojorat]

YEs but alot of NPC's are humanoids that make for 2hd zombies regardless of their level beforehand. So turning that enemy paladin into a zombie basically makes him a footstool.

[Sciris001]

That's precisely my question. Let's say that paladin had 10 HD. Of course he loses all of his spells and divine abilities/ etc. but will he retain all of his original stats minus his racial bonuses? Will he retain his HD? Or does a Lvl 20 barbarian turn into a 2 HD zombie? I was under the impression he just gained the template. No there isn't a near limitless amount. But that ancient dragon i just killed looks pretty interesting. Maybe I want a dracolich. Or perhaps that ogre king? The majority of things killed can be animated.

[Brambleman]

the zombie template states that the subject loses all HD from levels, loses the Con Score, And sets Cha to 10.

[stringburka]

Sciris: Nope, ze won't retain anything. Only racial hit dice are saved (and humans have none). So all humans, elves and so on will turn into 1hd skellies or 2hd zombies.

Also, remember that skellies/zombies have very limited uses. Basically, mostly combat and trap detection. And furniture. They're too stupid to be useful for much else, few have flying or good ranged capabilities, none have magic.

Create Undead allow you to create far more versatile creatures - even the lowly ghoul has an intelligence of 13, a (albeit weak for conventional encounters) disease, and can reproduce (one of the best benefits!).

Let loose a wight or three in a small village and you soon have a very dangerous trap for anyone passing by. The trap being a village full of wights.

EDIT: And an animated dragon is NOT a dracolich xD a dragon animated with animate dead isn't really that good a choice, since they're highly reliant on their magic and flying - and lose both when they're skellies (only magic if they're zombies IIRC).

Now, a Skeletal Champion dragon - that's something to watch out for!

[Bomanz]

Bill the Exalted Paladin, level 20, whom you just happen to defeat, turns into a 1HD skelly, or a 2HD zombie.

'Course, if you are slaying Bill the Exalted Paladin, you can animate him other ways.

I reckon the most normal way of doing it is to raid graveyards, but then, any country bumpkin with the spell can do that, so BtEP is still only a 1HD Skelly.

Its kind of weak.

Even if you animate BtEP as a burning bloody skelly, he is still ONLY a 1HD burning bloody skelly....granted, he is far better that way, but still...only 1HD.

Same with Fast/Diseased zombies.

Fast makes them useful sorta, as a flank buddy/nuisance to casters kind of thing.

Its hard to be a powerful necromancer until you are lvl 10ish+

[stringburka]

Oh, and no ancient dragons can be animated into a skeleton - only into zombies (max is 20hd for skeleton, lowest is 21 for ancient dragon).

This is an ancient black dragon zombie (normally a CR 16 creature):

BLACK DRAGON ZOMBIE CR 8
NE Huge undead (water)
Init +3; Senses dragon senses; Perception +34
Aura frightful presence (300 ft., DC 25)
DEFENSE
AC 41, touch 7, flat-footed 41 (+34 natural, –2 size, -1 dex)
hp 121 (22d8+22)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +12
DR 5/slashing; undead immunities
OFFENSE

Speed 60 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +26 (2d8+18), or slam +26 (2d6+12), or 2 claws +26 (2d6+12), or 2 wings +21 (1d8+6), or tail +21 (2d6+18)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)

STATISTICS

Str 35, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +16; CMB +28; CMD 37 (41 vs. trip)
Feats Toughness
Skills Fly -13, Swim +20
Languages none

Staggered (Ex)
Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.

Now, this is not a bad pet - I'm not saying that. But this is still a 22 hit dice creature with a normal CR of 16 and only raisable when you're at least 11th level.

The magic is lost and the multiple attacks wasted due to Staggered.

A younger dragon that's raised as a skeleton might be more useful in damage potential but would lose flying.

[deuxhero]

Generally human undead aren't worth it EVER except possibly to pull switches and open that are likely trapped (and even then, Open/Close may work for you).

Monstrous undead though...

In 3.5, the gold standard was Pyro-Hydra and Fire Giant, but the changes to the template invalidated them (Fire Immunity is a special defensive quality and lost. Hydra replaced pseudo pounce which was a natural attack enhancing special quality which was kept with pounce, which is a special attack and not kept). Undead do keep fast healing (it's under HP which isn't lost) and Spell Like Abilities (under Spell Like Abilities, which also aren't lost. Save DCs will suck though). No idea what is good now.

[Dezhem]

The way I'm reading it is that unless the creature in question has an appropriate template to go with it and rules on how to add them to existing critters, you merely end up creating the base Bestiary version.

As far as I can tell, the only way you can retain class levels and such when animating/creating dead is to use the Skeleton Champion or Zombie Lord versions, which have templates. At least for RAW that seems to be the way to go. Home games, feel free to adjudicate whichever way I suppose.

[Benly]

Dezhem wrote:

The way I'm reading it is that unless the creature in question has an appropriate template to go with it and rules on how to add them to existing critters, you merely end up creating the base Bestiary version.

As far as I can tell, the only way you can retain class levels and such when animating/creating dead is to use the Skeleton Champion or Zombie Lord versions, which have templates. At least for RAW that seems to be the way to go. Home games, feel free to adjudicate whichever way I suppose.

Despite being listed on PFSRD as available options, the sources for Skeleton Champion and Zombie Lord do not list rules for creating them with Create Undead. However, Juju Zombie does the job fine.

[Dezhem]

Benly wrote:

Dezhem wrote:

The way I'm reading it is that unless the creature in question has an appropriate template to go with it and rules on how to add them to existing critters, you merely end up creating the base Bestiary version.

As far as I can tell, the only way you can retain class levels and such when animating/creating dead is to use the Skeleton Champion or Zombie Lord versions, which have templates. At least for RAW that seems to be the way to go. Home games, feel free to adjudicate whichever way I suppose.

Despite being listed on PFSRD as available options, the sources for Skeleton Champion and Zombie Lord do not list rules for creating them with Create Undead. However, Juju Zombie does the job fine.

This is true, and relatively annoying. The rules for creating Skeletal Champions are in the Bestiary, while Zombie Lord is in Carrion Crown Book 3. Would have been nice if those had been included in Undead Revisited.

[Are]

Dezhem wrote:

This is true, and relatively annoying. The rules for creating Skeletal Champions are in the Bestiary, while Zombie Lord is in Carrion Crown Book 3. Would have been nice if those had been included in Undead Revisited.

Undead Revisited actually does list rules for creating Skeletal Champions with create undead.

The book was printed before CC3 (I believe), so Zombie Lord isn't in it for obvious reasons.

[Dezhem]

Are wrote:

Dezhem wrote:

This is true, and relatively annoying. The rules for creating Skeletal Champions are in the Bestiary, while Zombie Lord is in Carrion Crown Book 3. Would have been nice if those had been included in Undead Revisited.

Undead Revisited actually does list rules for creating Skeletal Champions with create undead.

The book was printed before CC3 (I believe), so Zombie Lord isn't in it for obvious reasons.

Ah, that makes sense then. My point was that in Undead Revisited it does list the rules for creating Skeletal Champions, but not the template, which is in the Bestiary.