Melee Touch Attacks & the Strength Modifier

[Big Yeti Cane]

So this has bothered me from D&D 3.0, to 3.5, and now in Pathfinder. Why does an attacker who is making a melee touch attack utilize her strength modifier as part of the attack roll?
I understand that the defender recieves his full dexterity bonus (normally) in order to represent his ability to avoid the "handsy" attacker, but the attacking character shouldn't have to take Weapon Finesse in order to use her dexterity modifier on the roll instead.
What part of trying to touch an opponent involves utilizing a character's physical strength? You don't need to be able to shove someone in order to lay a finger on them. IMO this is silliness that fell through the cracks again when PF was released.
Am I wrong? Thoughts?

[blackbloodtroll]

Weapon Finesse fixes that.

[Big Yeti Cane]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weapon Finesse fixes that.

Yes, I mentioned that above. Question is, why does the base rule require that. It makes no sense.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, think of this: A 90lb weakling and a 250lb muscle man try to touch you, which will most likely succeed?

[setzer9999]

Who says everyone that is 90 lbs is a weakling?

Strength seems to indicate lifting capacity and the ability to strike hard. Dexterity seems to indicate the ability to act swiftly, acrobatically, or... well... dextrously.

While if you were VERY weak, being highly dextrous would also be a problem, a 90 lb professional acrobat who could barely if even dead lift their own weight actually very much could touch part of their body to you with greater ease than a lumbering 200+ lb hulk who can dead lift well over their weight. The touch would just not have the maximum damage potential from the acrobat as the hulk, although with the right martial arts training, the acrobat could still kill you sure enough.

The point is though, that Dexterity, by any sense of reality, is the more important factor in being able to merely get your hand on something. Strength would modify what your maximum purchase on that thing would be if you got a good connection with your hit, but merely touching it would be fundamentally a Dexterity thing.

The rule makes no sense.

Yet, that is the rule. There is no mystery about it as a rules question. It takes Strength to touch unless you have Weapon Finesse... however nonsensical that is, that is the rule.

[blackbloodtroll]

No, the example 90lb. person was a weakling.

[setzer9999]

What difference does your one example make? Weight isn't even the key factor here. Someone could have lower lifting capacity and do less damage when they strike with a greathammer in their hands, but still be faster, more agile, able to tumble around, duck, run faster, and have quicker reflexes. That is what Dexterity represents.

The reason it makes more sense for Strength to connect a weapon attack is because the weapon modifies your physical body, extending your leverage, giving you an edge (sometimes literally) that your strength factors into greatly. If you are strong enough to throw that extra weight around, you are going to be better likely to hit... and also, its overcoming not just coming into contact with the opponent, but smashing through their AC in terms of hardness, piercing the armor or bruising them through it.

Simply touching someone has nothing to do with this. Unless you are so weak that you don't even move at an average speed when not trying to be dextrous, like you are old or sickly, it is going to be more about your speed and agility if you could simply touch something than your strength. Speed, reflexes, that is represented by Dexterity, not Strength, and that is what it takes to merely touch something, regardless of "how hard" you touch it.

Again, regardless, the rule is not ambiguous. In this game, Str is the stat you need to touch someone by RAW unless you have Weapon Finesse.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, it breaks down like this: Melee uses strength, Ranged use dexterity.

If you begin to mix it up by adding subtypes of melee and ranged attacks, you begin to have a breakdown of the rules.

No system can accurately display real world physics without breaking down.

[Saint.S]

Big Yeti Cane wrote:

... Why does an attacker who is making a melee touch attack utilize her strength modifier as part of the attack roll?

... the attacking character shouldn't have to take Weapon Finesse in order to use her dexterity modifier on the roll instead.
What part of trying to touch an opponent involves utilizing a character's physical strength? You don't need to be able to shove someone in order to lay a finger on them. IMO this is silliness that fell through the cracks again when PF was released.

I like this idea. I'm going to try allowing "touchers" to use their dex if they want. I'll add it to my crib sheet of house rules and let the players know. If we end up not liking it, we'll change it.

[setzer9999]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, it breaks down like this: Melee uses strength, Ranged use dexterity.

If you begin to mix it up by adding subtypes of melee and ranged attacks, you begin to have a breakdown of the rules.

No system can accurately display real world physics without breaking down.

This isn't that hard to break down... the Weapon Finesse feat alone should prove that it's not hard to break down. Once someone takes that feat, they use this so called "ranged" stat for light weapon attacks now.

If you ask me, it sounds like a very good house rule to let people use Dexterity instead. I'd say something like this might make it balancing, because yes, have VERY low strength also would limit your explosive movement potential, and it gives maximum stat dumpers something to think about, thereby balancing it.

"If you have at least 8 Strength, and at least 15 Dexterity, you may add your Dexterity modifier on melee touch attack rolls instead of Strength as if you had the Weapon Finesse feat. This applies only to melee touch attacks made with a part of your body, and not to a melee touch attack made with a weapon (armor or clothing being on top of your body part making the touch does not negate the ability to substitute). For attacks made with a manufactured or supernatural weapon, both melee and melee touch, you will still need to take the Weapon Finesse feat to substitute Dexterity for Strength."

To me, this makes perfect sense. I dislike casters feeling like they need feats like Weapon Finesse, because the benefits at the actual table are pretty lame most of the time. I'd say just let them have it if their physical attributes warrant it.

[Big Yeti Cane]

setzer9999 wrote:

...This applies only to melee touch attacks made with a part of your body...

That is sort of how I house-rule it in my games as well.

If all you are trying to do is lay a finger on your opponent, I allow my players to utilize their choice of either STR or DEX. I am not trying to re-invent the wheel here by changing all touch attacks so that they utilize only DEX; if I did, I would end up penalizing strong attackers for following the RAW (and game balance overall).
Giving PC's the option to use whichever modifier they want also allows them to take advantage of buffs more. The game IS centered around your players having fun after all, and game balance seems to take care of itself because I allow my NPC's and monsters to utilize the same option.
As long as you ensure that you are only modifying touch attacks in this way you shouldn't run into any earth-shattering problems. :)

[Knight Magenta]

Dexterity and Strength, in real life, are sort of linked. You can't be very agile if you are not strong and vice-versa. So you can look at a strength controlling your attack speed and dexterity your physical coordination.

Also, if you make touch attacks use dex, it becomes easy to argue to automatically use dex for other weapons. For example, the rapier does not benifite much from strength. You don't fight that way with it. But using Dex with a rapier still takes strength.

[Big Yeti Cane]

Knight Magenta wrote:

Dexterity and Strength, in real life, are sort of linked. You can't be very agile if you are not strong and vice-versa. So you can look at a strength controlling your attack speed and dexterity your physical coordination.

Also, if you make touch attacks use dex, it becomes easy to argue to automatically use dex for other weapons. For example, the rapier does not benifite much from strength. You don't fight that way with it. But using Dex with a rapier still takes strength.

I... don't see how what you're saying is in disagreement with what I was saying above. Maybe I'm reading it wrong?

The Core Rulebooks (pg. 16) states: "Strength measures muscle and physical power. Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."
Technically both determine fighting ability to some degree as you stated, but the melee touch mechanic only takes one of them into account; hence my irritation with the RAW.
Also, utilizing additional weight, inertia and mass (such as you do when you use weapons) to crush, stab or slice someone is a lot different than laying your finger on them. That is why you're trying to hit the opponent's touch AC with a melee touch attack and not their normal AC. Your ability to skirt someone's defenses and touch them doesn't rely upon muscle and physical power as much as it does agility reflexes and balance (see the beginning of this paragraph); that is the core reasoning that I use when I implemented my house rule on melee touch attacks.

As for the "becomes easy to argue" point, you said:

Knight Magenta wrote:

..if you make touch attacks use dex, it becomes easy to argue to automatically use dex for other weapons.

I was talking about melee touch attacks, not attacks with weapons.

The difference between weapon attacks and a touch is mechanically monumental (for an explanation see my first paragraph).

EDIT: Overall, this is only my opinion. As most incorporeal undead with touch attacks have the Weapon Finesse feat in order to bypass the fact that they have no strength and would really suck without it, I believe that this must be a case where a game mechanic is painted over for balance, not common sense.
A gentleman in my upcoming group does not agree with me on grounds of balancing game mechanics and I will not change a base mechanic just to satiate my ignorance.

[Cyrus Longstrider]

I really don't see the problem... Strength doesn't necessarily means slow. In fact, stronger muscles can contract faster than weaker ones. Plus, it is easier to move your usually heavy weapon. This means that your attacks are going to be faster than they would be with a lower Strength score... and faster attacks = easier to hit.

Furthermore, the fact that using Dexterity to attack needs the feat Weapon Finess represents the fact that even with a high Dexterity score, you don't automatically become better to hit ennemies... You need at least a little bit of practice to learn how to use that Dexterity (which is what represents the feat) because it is not as instinctive as Strength to attack.

Or at least, that is my understanding of the rules...

[Rallaster]

I also agree that Melee Touch attacks should be calculated with Dex instead of Str...

HECK! I've been doing that with my group for the past 6 years and none of us knew! We just thought it was obvious!

[rainzax]

if you houserule free Weapon Finesse in any form, in light of what Knight Magenta has pointed out, if you wanted to further the simulationist approach without too much extra complication, you could further rule that any Strength penalty 'stacks' with any Dexterity for Strength substitution. this would have a side affect of disincentivising the 'dumping' of ST for DX, and reward a more ST-DX balanced character.

[Arkady Zelenka]

Two words: Royce Gracie.

[Rory]

Big Yeti Cane wrote:

I understand that the defender recieves his full dexterity bonus (normally) in order to represent his ability to avoid the "handsy" attacker, but the attacking character shouldn't have to take Weapon Finesse in order to use her dexterity modifier on the roll instead.

Technically you can't use Weapon Finesse with touch attacks unless they are considered light weapons. There are many people that do not consider touch attacks, even the ones declared by the PRD to be armed attacks, as weapons.

PRD wrote:

Weapon Finesse (Combat)

You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

I've seen a Dev say they allow it to work because it just make sense. That was good enough for me.

[pocsaclypse]

I'm confused about why people are confused. You're still making a melee attack. You just don't have to worry about getting through the armor. When they say the defender receives his dex bonus normally it doesn't automatically mean he gets his full bonus. If hes wearing half-plate for example, his normal dex bonus is 0, he can't avoid the attack any better just cause its a grope attack. (Also, if I'm wrong about that please correct me so I can have words with my GM).

[Seranov]

In the game I ran, I houseruled that everyone had Weapon Finesse. It's a baseline feature in D&D Next, so I figured it wouldn't ruin PF.