The thing about Pathfinder is that I like how they tied together HD per level with BAB, which definitely made things more consistent (cept with the Barbarian who gets 'special treatment' for good reason).
So lets say, for example, we bumped the skill list per level as follows:
8 class skills = 3 skill points per level (Fighter, Barbarian)
10 class skills = 4 skill points per level (Cleric, Paladin)
12 class skills = 5 skill points per level (Magus, Gunslinger)
14 class skills = 6 skill points per level (Monk, Ranger)
16 class skills = 8 skill points per level (Rogue special treatment)Would that be more effective?
Again, I think the thing to keep in mind is that not every class SHOULD be able to max out all the skills, so I don't mind it if certain classes struggle with skills while others excel.
Its really down to taste. I wouldn't tie it to class skills, and as I said you can tweak the class skills list. Weaker classes get more skills.
2 skill points per level (Wizard, Cleric)
3 skill points per level (Druid, Fighter, Paladin )
4 skill points per level (Barbarian,Gunslinger,Magus, Fighter w/overhauled skill list)
5 skill points per level (Bard,Ranger
6 skill points per level (Monk,Rogue)
6 skill points may not seem like alot but deception = bluff/disguise, thievery merges 2-3 skills etc. Thievery would be slight of hand, disable device, and open lock. This is just of the top of my head. Most classes with large skill lists would have 4/5 skills, 6 would only be for classes currently getting 8 skils, Primary spellcasters wouldn't get to many as they have spells and alot of spells duplicate or are better than skills anyway (charm, fly, invisability, etc).
Essentially I would take the best elements from SWSE, PF and 4th ed. Short term something like this would be fine and it doesn't require an extensive rewrite of the skill system. Using exisintg classes I would try and let people kinda emulate abilities from the 3.5 Swashbuckler, and Scout classes uising existing PF classes. Let fighters be effective in light armor, and maybe add a skirmish varient to ranger or rogue.
I've wanted to combine swim and climb ever since I saw how many things acrobatics does!
Appraise has always seemed a weak skill to me. A dm doesn't want to track what has been valued wrong. It would be nice if it were expanded and given a more active use, perhaps governing all buying and selling. Perhaps that is another needlesd complication though.
Appraise could be folded into a knowledge or thievery skill I suppose. Or just dumped entirely or make it a level check like concentration.
Hey, interesting thread, thanks for sharing. FYI, here is the revised skill list I'm going to use in my homebrew E6 game - a lot of changes are the same you guys came up with.
Not that in my campaign, all characters treat all skills as class skills and all classes get at least 4 skill points (modified by int).
Acrobatics (DEX) – now includes the ability to escape grapples from Escape Artist.
Climb (STR) – unchanged
Disable Device (DEX) – unchanged
Disguise (CHA) – unchanged
Heal (WIS) – unchanged
Influence (CHA) – a new skill that subsumes both Bluff and Diplomacy
Intimidate (CHA) – unchanged
Knowledge (arcana) (INT) – now includes spellcraft (arcane) and Use MagicItem
Knowledge (history) (INT) – now includes knowledge (nobility)
Knowledge (local) (INT) – now includes Knowledge (geography) of the wider region
Knowledge (nature) (INT) – now includes Survival for foraging, finding shelter, finding healing herbs etc.
Knowledge (religion) (INT) – now includes Spellcraft (divine) and Use Magic Item
Perception (WIS) – unchanged
Profession (INT) – now a freebie background skill based on INT; take one rank for every 10 years of your character’s age. Replaces aspects of crafting as well as Perform.
Ride (DEX) – now includes animal handling for your mount
Sense Motive (WIS) – now extends to animals as well
Sleight of Hand (DEX) – now includes escaping ropes, shackles etc as per Escape Artist
Stealth (DEX) – unchanged
Swim (STR) – unchanged
The following skills have been cut or replaced.
Appraise – has been cut; we’ll just handwave or roleplay this.
Bluff – has been combined with Diplomacy into a new skill called Influence
Craft – has been cut; crafting of magical or masterwork items is not part of this game
Diplomacy – has been combined with Bluff into a new skill called Influence
Escape Artist – has been cut; escaping a grapple is now part of Acrobatics, all other abilities are Sleight of Hand
Fly – has been cut, as flying is not part of this campaign
Handle Animal – has been cut; handling of mounts is now part of Ride; all other abilities are not part of the campaign
Knowledge (dungeoneering) – has been cut; will not be useful in this campaign
Knowledge (engineering) – has been cut; will not be useful in this campaign
Knowledge (geography) is now part of knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nobility) – now part of Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (planes) – has been cut, not part of this campaign
Linguistics – has been cut; languages are now acquired based on INT and do not change during play
Perform – is now one example of a profession skill
Spellcraft – now part of Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion), depending on skill
Survival now part of Knowledge (nature)
Use Magic Device – is now part of Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion), depending on the item
@Jorunkun
So it's impossible to learn new languages? Why? And which skill do they use if they want to forge a document or translate and anciet text?
I don't mean to offend you, but from the raw amount of times you said "won't be part of this campaign", I'm under the impression this campaign will either be very short or very restrictive. Maybe both.
@Jorunkun
So it's impossible to learn new languages? Why? And which skill do they use if they want to forge a document or translate and anciet text?
I don't mean to offend you, but from the raw amount of times you said "won't be part of this campaign", I'm under the impression this campaign will either be very short or very restrictive. Maybe both.
You're right, the campaign is deliberately restrictive - there's only four classes, capped at level six and all characters have to be one of four sub-races of elves. It's an outlaw-scenario, kinda like Robin Hood, except that the occupiers are quasi Romans and the oppressed locals were hunter-gatherers just a few generations ago and don't have a writing system, like the Celts.
As for languages, we use a system where you spend the equivalent of your INT on the languages known in the setting, with speaking ability rated from 1 (knows a few words) to 6 (native). There is no way to improve this skill or learn new languages during the game (which will only run for a few years, game time).
Ok I have finished typing it up for my game. THe revised list 4 me anyway.
Skill Revision
Several skills have been merged. The new skills are below and include the sub skills. The sub skills functions as per the Pathfinder core rules. Any ability that grants access to a skill functions normally but only for the sub skill aplication. Appraise has been eliminated as a skill- treat it as an DC 15 intelligence check.
Acrobatics – Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble,
Athletics – Climb, Swim, Jump
Craft
Deception- bluff, disguise
Diplomacy – diplomacy, intimidate
Disable Device
Fly
Handle Animal- includes ride
Heal
Knowledge Arcana
Knowledge Dungeoneering
Knowledge Engineering
Knowledge Geography
Knowledge History
Knowledge Nature
Knowlede Nobilty
Knowledge Planes
Knowledge Religion
Linguistics
Perception – includes sense motive
Perform – same
Profession – same
Spellcraft – same
Survival
Stealth
Thievery- disable device, sleight of hand
Use Magic Device
Class Skill Ranks per Level
Barbarian 3 + Int modifier
Brd 5 + Int modifier
Cleric 2+ Int modifier
Druid 4 + Int modifier
Fighter 3+ Int modifier
Monk 4+ Int modifier
Paladin 3+ Int modifier
Ranger 5+Int modifier
Rogue 6+ Int modifier
Sorcerer 3+ Int modifier
Wizard 2+ Int modifier
Class Skills
Barbarian: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (str) , Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (nature)
(Int), Perception (Wis), Survival (Wis)
Bard: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (str), Craft (Int), Deception, (Cha),Diplomacy (Cha),
Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Thievery (dex) and Use Magic Device (Cha)
Cleric: Craft (Int),Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int),Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis) Profession (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int)
Druid: Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis),
Fighter: Athletics (Str), Acrobatics (Dex), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering), (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis),
Monk: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animnal (Cha) Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis),
(Dex), Stealth (Dex),
Paladin: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility)
(Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Ranger: Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Handle, Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge
(dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession
(Wis) , Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Survival (Wis).
Rogue: Athletics (Str), Acrobatics (Dex), Craft (Int), Deception (Cha), Diplomacy
(Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception
(Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Thievery, and Use
Magic Device (Cha).
Sorcerer: Craft (Int), Deception (Cha), Diplomacy, Fly (Dex), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Any bloodline granting access to the diplomacy skill now grants a +2 bonus to diplomacy instead
Wizards: Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession
(Wis), and Spellcraft (Int
Okay, after MANY hours of careful revision, this is the condensed skill list I have finally compiled:
Acrobatics – Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist, Fly (Dex)
Athletics – Climb, Swim, Jump (Str)
Appraise – same (Int)
Craft – Same (Int)
Deception – Bluff, disguise (Cha)
Disable Device – same (Dex)
Handle Animal – same/Ride (Cha)
Knowledge Arcana – same (Int)
Knowledge Dungeoneering – same (Int)
Knowledge Engineering – same (Int)
Knowledge Local – same (Int)
Knowledge Anatomy – heal, torture, poison cure, etc (Int)
Knowledge History – includes knowledge nobility (Int)
Knowledge Nature – same (Int)
Knowledge Planes – same (Int)
Knowledge Religion – same (Int)
Linguistics –same (Int)
Perception – same (Wis)
Persuasion – Diplomacy, Intimidate (Cha)
Perform – same (Cha)
Profession – same (Wis)
Sense Motive – same (Wis)
Spellcraft – same (Int)
Stealth – same (but improvements to using it in combat)/Sleight of hand (Dex)
Survival – same/includes knowledge geography (Wis)
Use Magic Device – same (Cha)
in addition, the skill points per level for each individual class has been revised in the following way:
8 class skills = 2 skill points per level (Fighter, Barbarian)
12 class skills = 4 skill points per level (Magus, Gunslinger)
14 class skills = 6 skill points per level (Monk, Ranger)
16 class skills = 8 skill points per level (Rogue)
For anyone who is STILL doubting the whole 2 skill points per level thing, allow me to explain - if a class only has 8 class skills, then 2 skill points covers 1/4 of their skills. 12 class skills get 1/3 of their skill points, 14 class skills get a little less than half their skill points, while 16 class skills get half their skill points.
Using this method, each class is pretty much still required to invest in SOME amount of Intelligence. Keep in mind that other options such as racial bonuses to intelligence, as well as the favored class option also bump up skills even further then this.
Utilizing this new method, all classes should be able to excel out their skills without having to suffer for lack of skill points. again, please let me know what you guys think :P
For condensing, consider merging Appraise into respective Craft skill (or profession (merchant) or similar).
I figured Appraise could also be used to 'size an opponent up'. Basically a character can use appraise to not only determine value of an object, but to also determine the strength of an enemy (not like a knowledge check of course, but basically as a method of seeing if a particular enemy was stronger, weaker, of equal power, etc).