But if Mythic stacks for CL (at least the Caster Mythic Tiers anyway), then the 20/10 Wizard would have a CL of 30, and could affect Achaekek.** I know, the Achaekek presented is a conversion, but it's a conversion of the Achaekek presented in a 3.5 Paizo product. It was mentioned in one of the bestiaries that CR 26 and above is reserved for the realms of Arch Dukes and Demon Lords and that Arch Dukes and Demon Lords are equal in power to Demi-Gods. Achaekek is supposed to be more powerful than a Demi-God but less than a God. So Achaekek is a fairly good estimation of power for a Demon Lord, at least I think so.
Achaekek is NOT a good representation of what a CR 30 mythic demon lord will look like, especially in regards to SR.
A balor with 10 mythic levels does NOT increase his SR. None of the normal stats are increased through mythic abilities. AC, attacks, HD, and SR don't go up.
Achaekek is built using the OLD methods, not the new mythic system, so it represents the old math that the appropriate SR for a creature might be CR + 10. That will not be the case with new monsters made with the mythic rules.
I agree with you Tels on it potentially hurting the casting classes if there is no increase in caster level. However, Jason indicated that one of the abilities you learn (I think Mythic level 2) is +20 to your initiative. Maybe there is something similar for caster levels?
Maybe also at Mythic level 2, you gain a +5 to your caster level? Or maybe at another Mythic level?
As you said, it is too early to tell right now until we see the playtest.
The +20 to initiative is something you get just for being Mythic.
A mythic fighter always goes before a normal bear.
A mythic fighter and mythic bear basically roll for initiative normally, since they both have the +20.
In regards to actually surpassing SR, anytime a mythic character rolls a d20, they can spend a mythic point to add to the roll. At early levels Jason said you'd roll 1d6 and add it, and didn't specify when but that it would step up to a d8, and maybe higher dice later on.
But if Mythic stacks for CL (at least the Caster Mythic Tiers anyway), then the 20/10 Wizard would have a CL of 30, and could affect Achaekek.** I know, the Achaekek presented is a conversion, but it's a conversion of the Achaekek presented in a 3.5 Paizo product. It was mentioned in one of the bestiaries that CR 26 and above is reserved for the realms of Arch Dukes and Demon Lords and that Arch Dukes and Demon Lords are equal in power to Demi-Gods. Achaekek is supposed to be more powerful than a Demi-God but less than a God. So Achaekek is a fairly good estimation of power for a Demon Lord, at least I think so.
Achaekek is NOT a good representation of what a CR 30 mythic demon lord will look like, especially in regards to SR.
A balor with 10 mythic levels does NOT increase his SR. None of the normal stats are increased through mythic abilities. AC, attacks, HD, and SR don't go up.
Achaekek is built using the OLD methods, not the new mythic system, so it represents the old math that the appropriate SR for a creature might be CR + 10. That will not be the case with new monsters made with the mythic rules.
While that holds for the over 20 CR, as yet unrebuilt monsters, how does it affect existing creatures at lower levels?
If I've got a Level 10(Normal class)/5 Mythic party are they supposed to be the equal of a regular Level 15 party? Or are they only supposed to fight other creatures with mythic levels?
I think this is an inherent issue with treating CR like a firm formula and not an estimation. As a GM, when you compare a monster to your party, you should know if they can actually hit it, if the casters have a chance to bypass SR, if it's immune to their primary attacks, etc.
I think at mid to high levels, the CR estimation between the two systems will get a little skewed. A 11(5) party is supposed to be equivalent to a level 16 party, but I think a standard CR 20 monster will be extremely difficult due to the math. I think adding some mythic abilities to a CR 16 monster would be a much better idea.
In regards to actually surpassing SR, anytime a mythic character rolls a d20, they can spend a mythic point to add to the roll. At early levels Jason said you'd roll 1d6 and add it, and didn't specify when but that it would step up to a d8, and maybe higher dice later on.
And what about increasing spells per day, duration of spells, damage (per caster level)?
As long as there are other alternatives to increase those through gaining Mythic levels, I am fine with your caster levels not continuing to increase.
I misunderstood Hobbun's use of CL. Mythic advancement will probably benefit your caster level, I think, but I don't think it will be 1 for 1.
And I can imagine that it will be difficult to compare a normal character's power to a mythic character's power, because as I understand what has been reported, the mythic advancement is orthogonal to standard level advancement, i.e. in another dimension. The closest comparison I can come up with is (ADVISORY: EXPLICIT MATH) that mythic advancement are to traditional level advancement as imaginary numbers are to real numbers, and a character that has both kind of levels then is something similar to a complex number. You cannot really compare real and complex numbers or say which one is greater, because this kind of ordering does not apply to complex numbers. As complex number have a real and an imaginary part, so do mythic characters have a standard level and a mythic level. The closest way to compare complex number by something similar to "size" is to compare their distance from the origin in the complex number plain. So if a complex number can be written as
r = x + y * i
(where—for those not in the know—i is the square root of –1), then its distance from the origin, or "absolute value", which is a real number, is (with sqrt indicating the square root):
|r| = sqrt( x^2 + y^2 )
I could imagine that the same kind of comparison could perhaps be applied to mythical characters, so that for a character with X normal levels and Y mythical levels, his "distance from zero" could be calculated as
d = sqrt ( X^2 + p * Y^2 )
where p is a scaling factor that balances the power of mythical and normal level against each other.
This value d could then be treated as an absolute measurement of power and thus translate into the CR. I would expect that the CR is d – 1, as that would be the result for normal non-mythical characters.
OK, rambling done, math lesson over. :)
One more nitpick, this time from the English department: mythic is not mystic. Those are different words. :)
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In regards to actually surpassing SR, anytime a mythic character rolls a d20, they can spend a mythic point to add to the roll. At early levels Jason said you'd roll 1d6 and add it, and didn't specify when but that it would step up to a d8, and maybe higher dice later on.And what about increasing spells per day, duration of spells, damage (per caster level)?
As long as there are other alternatives to increase those through gaining Mythic levels, I am fine with your caster levels not continuing to increase.
One of the few 'concrete' examples for casters was Fireball.
A wizard might learn Mythic Fireball. Whenever he casts his normal Fireball, he has the option to spend a Mythic Point to turn it into Mythic Fireball.
Mythic Fireball does 1d10/level and sets creatures and objects on fire, which does 2d6 damage per round until extinguished (which can be extinguished per the normal rules).
The basic sense I got is that Mythic rules will laterally expand your power instead of vertically. You get more options and the ability to take actions in ways others can't, but your bonuses stay the same.
Of course, there is also a lot of stuff we haven't been told yet. There certainly could be ways for wizards to get spells back, there's already precedent for it with the magus class. Maybe they could get a spell back that's been cast by spending a Mythic Point, though I think that actually sounds slightly on the weak side compared to some of these other options we've heard so far.
Don't like the sound of that (mythic points), so hopefully the actual rules will be different.
I want to be able to advance past level 20. I hope these rules let me do that.
...but I think it might actually work better if you mixed the 10 mythic levels in among the 20 normal levels (putting them all on the normal XP track). This would slow casting progression while giving everyone nice stuff, so it might help keep the game running smoothly into higher levels.From everything I've seen on the subject, the mythic levels are NOT gained via XP.
Arg. I feel like the number of posts in between each of mine is making it hard to get my point across.
First, I know this is not what's been presented. I'm talking about an option I'd like to see included.
Some of us want to use mythic levels to extend the level cap. That means placing the mythic levels on the XP track somewhere. Others have mentioned adding them at the end, so that when you gain 21, you get your first mythic level. That means you'd need 30 XP levels to get wizard 20/archmage 10.
I was saying that mixing the mythic levels in among the regular levels would potentially be a better option. You'd get mythic 1 when you hit XP level 3, and then get two more regular levels and then another mythic level. This would slow casting progression all around and give everyone more cool stuff.
Again, only for those of us that want 30 XP levels. Again, no relation to how mythic levels are meant to be used.
I think the only things that concern me about Mythic points are a) the number gained (someone mentioned 1 per point of a chosen ability bonus) and b) how often they refresh.
Having a number that varies depending on an ability score is all well and good, in many respects, but the disparity in number of points for someone with a 14 stat compared to an 18 could become quite pronounced depending on how often the pool of points may be used. The more frequently they refresh, the greater the disparity becomes. Daily use seems to be a good balance point, except your friendly neighbourhood wizard with (say) 5 mythic points can only cast 5 mythic spells each day, which isn't really an awful lot if you consider that these levels are meant to represent an expansion in power for the character. If they refresh more frequently, players will have even more reason to max out one stat and dump the rest. If they refresh less frequently, people are more likely to hoard them and not use them.
Not to start a rules discussion when we don't know the rules in question, but an alternative might be to have 1 per mythic level, plus 1 per ability bonus from one stat on a daily refresh, which would mean they get used more often, but that stats have less of an impact in the long run, and the difference between a 6th level Archmage (Int 22) and a 6th level Archmage (Int 16) is a mere 1/3rd more points, compared to twice as many.
Don't like the sound of that (mythic points), so hopefully the actual rules will be different.
I want to be able to advance past level 20. I hope these rules let me do that.
As I read (what little so far) has been said, that's part of what they are trying not to do.
So, as far as caster levels, and stuff:
Unless Orange Prisom Ioun Stones stack (I tend to think they do, but I've seen arguments against it), neither of those spells' entries make any sense without being able to progress past level 24 for caster levels.
So, you know. Caster levels likely increase somehow. (Possibly on a +1/2 scale).
I was thinking mythic levels would give you abilities that are normally outside the grasp of your statistics. What I mean is having a 10th level character jump 100ft+ in the air a few times a day, or you gain a large "mythic" bonus to your strength to lift crazy heavy objects. Maybe give characters with a fly speed "starflight" to fly through space, and gaining other cool abilities that are usually only shared by monsters.
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As I read (what little so far) has been said, that's part of what they are trying not to do.Don't like the sound of that (mythic points), so hopefully the actual rules will be different.
I want to be able to advance past level 20. I hope these rules let me do that.
My hope is that I can do that with these rules. They may be able to be applied to levels below 20 (which I'm OK with) but I also want them to apply as a means for a framework beyond 20th level.
Hopefully they will do both. If not, I'll be disappointed.
Director of Games
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So, I do not quite have the time to give a wide range of examples, or give a great deal of explanation right now, but I do want to clear a few things up.
Your mythic levels (or tiers, I kinda like that, may bounce that around the pit), are outside your normal progression. The game plays out as normal for the most part, killing monsters, getting stuff, but occasionally, when you meet the right criteria, you might get a new mythic level. Achieving this level is not based on xp, it is based on accomplishing deeds that are tied to your path and other deeds that are decided upon by your GM. Since these can happen at any time, this system can be used to augment lower level characters (even 1st) or can be used as a different sort of capstone advancement once you hit 20th (you might not be worried about xp anymore, only completing deeds for the sake of more mythic levels).
Next up, there are no mythic "points". Instead, each mythic character can draw upon his mythic power a number of times per day equal to his total mythic level plus the modifier from a ability score of his choice. This mythic power is the real engine behind a number of his abilities. All characters can use it to add to a d20 roll after the results have been declared, but each path also grants one ability at 1st level that also draws on it. During play, we have found that the power from this pool is in high demand and every character has to carefully decide how best to use it.
I hope to share more with you folks soon. Stay patient.. there is much more to come.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What kind of noncombat options do you need once you have Skills, the spells Mending, Fabricate, and the ability to create Demi-Planes? The systems are what you use for combat. Roleplay is what you bring to the table, not the system. Also keep in mind that in a presentation venue, combat options are what people want covered in a limited time frame.
Unfortunately (for me!) I think you represent the target audience for these book much better than I do. Hence the way they are written.
Pathfinder, in my opinion, right now is a huge mass of player options, mostly aimed at individual and small squad combat, and slightly wider at "adventuring" in the classic sense of creatures and traps.
I would like the ruleset to start supporting concepts outside of those limitations (ultimate campaign is a great start!).
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Your mythic levels (or tiers, I kinda like that, may bounce that around the pit), are outside your normal progression.
Please use just about any term other than levels please. There is enough confusion between character and caster levels without adding more.
Next up, there are no mythic "points". Instead, each mythic character can draw upon his mythic power a number of times per day equal to his total mythic level plus the modifier from a ability score of his choice.
So they have MLVL + ABL points, or in other terms they can use it MLVL + ABL times per day. I'd love to know where the reluctance to give characters 'points' to track comes from as I rather liked the Barbarians 'rage points' in beta.
It would be cool, but probably over-complex, if the ability that the player chose to fuel their mythic power had an additional effect. Otherwise it's just choose your highest stat.
See, I'm pretty against "mythic points" you "spend" in combat (or out) to "do cool stuff."
(even if it's called "mythic power" instead of "mythic points" ... that's just semantics)
To me this will completely break any versimilitude I'm trying to maintain when I'm running a game. It's why I don't like hero points, or action points, or any such system. Heck, even the 3.5e luck feats stretch it a bit for me but they're not commonly in use and I can deal.
I've always thought such things smack you in the face with the fact you're playing a game. I really, really, really don't want to start an edition war here, but the best example I can think of is 4e, where that was inherent in the system, and all the powers had funky names that did metagamey things, and every round in combat it *smack* hit *smack* me *smack* in the face that I was playing a game.
When I'm trying to set the mood and someone goes "okay, I spend a mythic point and take another turn" it feels more like rolling doubles in Monopoly than anything that might actually be happening.
To me, being mythic should be something inherent about the character, not some kind of mythic currency that you can spend a limited number of times per day. A mythic caster just can make their fireballs uber-destructive. A mythic fighter just can strike devastating blows in combat, and a mythic bard just can charm the ears off a balor.
Hercules didn't use a power token to get strong a few times a day - he just was crazily, mythically strong. That's what I'm talking about :)
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Your mythic levels (or tiers, I kinda like that, may bounce that around the pit), [...]
Cool! :)
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(PS, and for anyone who says we cant do math around these parts... )
:)
Damn. Nice.
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See, I'm pretty against "mythic points" you "spend" in combat (or out) to "do cool stuff."
(even if it's called "mythic power" instead of "mythic points" ... that's just semantics)
To me this will completely break any versimilitude I'm trying to maintain when I'm running a game. It's why I don't like hero points, or action points, or any such system. Heck, even the 3.5e luck feats stretch it a bit for me but they're not commonly in use and I can deal.
I've always thought such things smack you in the face with the fact you're playing a game. I really, really, really don't want to start an edition war here, but the best example I can think of is 4e, where that was inherent in the system, and all the powers had funky names that did metagamey things, and every round in combat it *smack* hit *smack* me *smack* in the face that I was playing a game.
When I'm trying to set the mood and someone goes "okay, I spend a mythic point and take another turn" it feels more like rolling doubles in Monopoly than anything that might actually be happening.
To me, being mythic should be something inherent about the character, not some kind of mythic currency that you can spend a limited number of times per day. A mythic caster just can make their fireballs uber-destructive. A mythic fighter just can strike devastating blows in combat, and a mythic bard just can charm the ears off a balor.
Hercules didn't use a power token to get strong a few times a day - he just was crazily, mythically strong. That's what I'm talking about :)
How is saying "I spend a mythic power use" different from "I use power attack" or "I activate arcane strike"?
And regarding mythic tales, most legendary characters tend to pull off ridiculous feats of strength/luck/cunning from time to time in an extremely dramatic narrative fashion. Being able to, sometimes, stretch the limits of your abilities is at the very core of mythic tales, and for that, what Jason said seems ideal.
See, I'm pretty against "mythic points" you "spend" in combat (or out) to "do cool stuff."
(even if it's called "mythic power" instead of "mythic points" ... that's just semantics)
Honestly, I'm not sure how this is different this is from all the other limited use abilities in pathfinder. Wizards can only cast so many spells per day. The same goes for the round limit on bardic song, barbarian rage, inquisitor bane. There's also paladin smites per day...
The only characters that have no limits on the number of times per day they can use any of their abilities are fighters. Even rogues have 1/day use talents.
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When I'm trying to set the mood and someone goes "okay, I spend a mythic point and take another turn" it feels more like rolling doubles in Monopoly than anything that might actually be happening.
I see your point, however:
In Spycraft/Stargate when someone pitches one of their precious action dice onto the table, it creates a sense of tension rather than breaking it. I then take a deep breath and describe their actions in more epic terms - success or fail.
Hercules tried many epic feats of strength, but some failed.
Points can work, its a question of description.
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Next up, there are no mythic "points". Instead, each mythic character can draw upon his mythic power a number of times per day equal to his total mythic level plus the modifier from a ability score of his choice. This mythic power is the real engine behind a number of his abilities. All characters can use it to add to a d20 roll after the results have been declared, but each path also grants one ability at 1st level that also draws on it. During play, we have found that the power from this pool is in high demand and every character has to carefully decide how best to use it.
Sold.
Well, mostly. I have the sneaking suspicion that this might actually break down a little. Bear with me on this. Two 1st level characters gain a Mythic tier. Both have been built on 20 points. One player dumped a couple of abilities to get Str 20, the other took the more balanced route and has Str 16. Despite being otherwise similar in power (hypothetically identical, in fact), the first character has 6 uses of Mythic abilities per day, while the second has only 4. Why should the single-stat-focused character be 50% "more Mythic" than the other? Yes, by the time they've got 10 Mythic tiers under their belts, it's only 2 uses per day difference, and that's not a lot when you have 13 or 15 to hand, but that is a hefty discrepancy at low levels.
I can see an argument for a high-stat character being "more legendary" than someone else, but I can't help but feel that with foreknowledge of a Mythic campaign, maxing one stat offers more advantage early on than creating a more generalised character.
Since these can happen at any time, this system can be used to augment lower level characters (even 1st) or can be used as a different sort of capstone advancement once you hit 20th (you might not be worried about xp anymore, only completing deeds for the sake of more mythic levels).
Interesting.
I await more info...
I can see an argument for a high-stat character being "more legendary" than someone else, but I can't help but feel that with foreknowledge of a Mythic campaign, maxing one stat offers more advantage early on than creating a more generalised character.
20 point buy to get 20 strength -
20
15
14
7
9
7
20 point buy to get 20 str without dumping -
20
11
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20 point buy normal -
16
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If you really want to make a one-trick character, that's fine. On the other hand, if you want to make a character with a stat at 7 when spells like mythic poison, mythic touch of gracelessness/idiocy are around, then be my guest.
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Well, brewing some mythic sake (and then using it to help kill a mythic beast) certainly gained one mythological character a new mythic level (and a nifty new sword, which probably added another level).
Also, if you accept some anime as examples of mythic campaigns, several such characters did have (roughly) daily limits on their abilities at low levels. (Yuusuke from Yuu Yuu Hakusho could only fire his spirit gun once or twice a day until he got stronger. I'm sure I could find other examples.)
Hercules was crazy strong, but he only held up the sky for a little while.
Also, while some mythic abilities draw from the daily uses pool, I imagine not all of them do.
Other anime examples MagiMaster
Kakashi(aruto) even at his strongest shown is limted to only 4 or 5 chidoris and a set amount of time for Sharingan.
Ichigo(bleach) has a hard limit early on with his Vizard mask time.
During the Saiyan Arc Goku can only fire one spirit bomb in DBZ.
Both main alter users in S-Cry-Ed had hard daily limits on their abilities.
In Dragon Ball, there were a number of times Goku couldn't fire his Kamehameha Wave because he was out of juice. Granted, I think DBZ is more accurately played with a power point system, but he still has a limit on what he can do.
Later on, Goku just seems to pick up the "Unlimited Mythic Power" ability an just goes on forever and ever.
Nah he just learns to slight of hand Sensu beans into his mouth as a free action as part of every attack.
So, I do not quite have the time to give a wide range of examples, or give a great deal of explanation right now, but I do want to clear a few things up.
Your mythic levels (or tiers, I kinda like that, may bounce that around the pit), are outside your normal progression. The game plays out as normal for the most part, killing monsters, getting stuff, but occasionally, when you meet the right criteria, you might get a new mythic level. Achieving this level is not based on xp, it is based on accomplishing deeds that are tied to your path and other deeds that are decided upon by your GM. Since these can happen at any time, this system can be used to augment lower level characters (even 1st) or can be used as a different sort of capstone advancement once you hit 20th (you might not be worried about xp anymore, only completing deeds for the sake of more mythic levels).
Next up, there are no mythic "points". Instead, each mythic character can draw upon his mythic power a number of times per day equal to his total mythic level plus the modifier from a ability score of his choice. This mythic power is the real engine behind a number of his abilities. All characters can use it to add to a d20 roll after the results have been declared, but each path also grants one ability at 1st level that also draws on it. During play, we have found that the power from this pool is in high demand and every character has to carefully decide how best to use it.
I hope to share more with you folks soon. Stay patient.. there is much more to come.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think you are being too rulesbound. If your bolting on an additional system why not include at will and freefom powers? it sounds like you are basically recreating 1e/2es potions of (super)heroism only with a point based mechanic.
Good examples.
In Dragon Ball, there were a number of times Goku couldn't fire his Kamehameha Wave because he was out of juice. Granted, I think DBZ is more accurately played with a power point system, but he still has a limit on what he can do.
Later on, Goku just seems to pick up the "Unlimited Mythic Power" ability an just goes on forever and ever.
One way to represent something like this would be that abilities from your top X levels (1, 2 or 3 probably, but that'd require playtesting) had a daily limit, but weaker powers (from older levels) didn't any more.
So a Cleric 2/Archmage 1 could use mythic power to nearly fully heal someone 5 or 6 times a day (3d6 + something would usually be a good chunk of 2 HD). By the time they hit Cleric 8/Archmage 4, that trick wouldn't be nearly so taxing.
Of course, that might cause other problems. For example, if buffing CMW was a mythic 2 ability, then they could use a buffed CLW as many times as they had 1st level spell slots for more effect than an unbuffed CMW, or use mythic power to boost CMW burning through resources. Maybe not a huge problem due to the spell slot limits, but it seems incongruous. (Alternately, if buffing any cure spell was a mythic 1 ability, they could buff any high level cure all the time, which is almost certainly more of a problem.)
Anyway, just thinking out loud.
So, I do not quite have the time to give a wide range of examples, or give a great deal of explanation right now, but I do want to clear a few things up.
Your mythic levels (or tiers, I kinda like that, may bounce that around the pit), are outside your normal progression. The game plays out as normal for the most part, killing monsters, getting stuff, but occasionally, when you meet the right criteria, you might get a new mythic level. Achieving this level is not based on xp, it is based on accomplishing deeds that are tied to your path and other deeds that are decided upon by your GM. Since these can happen at any time, this system can be used to augment lower level characters (even 1st) or can be used as a different sort of capstone advancement once you hit 20th (you might not be worried about xp anymore, only completing deeds for the sake of more mythic levels).
Next up, there are no mythic "points". Instead, each mythic character can draw upon his mythic power a number of times per day equal to his total mythic level plus the modifier from a ability score of his choice. This mythic power is the real engine behind a number of his abilities. All characters can use it to add to a d20 roll after the results have been declared, but each path also grants one ability at 1st level that also draws on it. During play, we have found that the power from this pool is in high demand and every character has to carefully decide how best to use it.
I hope to share more with you folks soon. Stay patient.. there is much more to come.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm very excited about this, but one thing got me worried.
The gap between classes depending on only one stat and those that rely on many stats (and the rest of the classes that are in between).
I think it's obvious that classes like wizards and sorcerers that already are the most powerful classes in the game from mid levels and onwards (or even earlier) are also the classes that only depend on one stat. Sure they need some dex and some con but dumping dex or con is rare regardless of class.
Then there are classes like Monks, Bards, Rangers and others that need to spread their stats. Even fighters with their crappy saves and 2 skills per level can't go all strength.
Basing it on a stat of your choice also encourage power gaming. People will be less inclined to play TWF fighter or a cleric with charisma, .....or a fighter with charisma.
One solution could be to base it on the characters second best stat.
anyway, from what I read so far it looks exciting.
I can see an argument for a high-stat character being "more legendary" than someone else, but I can't help but feel that with foreknowledge of a Mythic campaign, maxing one stat offers more advantage early on than creating a more generalised character.20 point buy to get 20 strength -
20
15
14
7
9
720 point buy to get 20 str without dumping -
20
11
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1020 point buy normal -
16
14
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10If you really want to make a one-trick character, that's fine. On the other hand, if you want to make a character with a stat at 7 when spells like mythic poison, mythic touch of gracelessness/idiocy are around, then be my guest.
You are missing the point.
It's not whether you can create a melee dude with 20 str without dumping. It's about playing a balance character vs a one stat character.Also, playing a melee dude with dex 11 and con 12 would equal dead PC unless he was a healer (Paladin or cleric, etc). Nor is wis 9 a smart move unless you play paladin.
Finally, not all GMs use 20 point buy.
You could reasonably make a case for tying it to your lowest stat (epic characters should be better all around), except that the info so far suggests the stat in question is either picked or tied to your mythic path (there are six of them).
(Ok, so I don't think that'd actually work out very well.)
I think you are being too rulesbound. If your bolting on an additional system why not include at will and freefom powers? it sounds like you are basically recreating 1e/2es potions of (super)heroism only with a point based mechanic.
+1. I will be massively disappointed if this is another book of feats and spells.
How is saying "I spend a mythic power use" different from "I use power attack" or "I activate arcane strike"?I've always thought such things smack you in the face with the fact you're playing a game. I really, really, really don't want to start an edition war here, but the best example I can think of is 4e, where that was inherent in the system, and all the powers had funky names that did metagamey things, and every round in combat it *smack* hit *smack* me *smack* in the face that I was playing a game.
When I'm trying to set the mood and someone goes "okay, I spend a mythic point and take another turn" it feels more like rolling doubles in Monopoly than anything that might actually be happening.
To me, being mythic should be something inherent about the character, not some kind of mythic currency that you can spend a limited number of times per day. A mythic caster just can make their fireballs uber-destructive. A mythic fighter just can strike devastating blows in combat, and a mythic bard just can charm the ears off a balor.
Hercules didn't use a power token to get strong a few times a day - he just was crazily, mythically strong. That's what I'm talking about :)
A PC with Power Attack just has it. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any limited use abilities - hell, half the stuff in the game is 1/day or ki-based, or what-have-you.
What I'm saying is that if every single mythic ability is driven by some sort of mana pool, you can no longer just play your character - you have to do a cost-benefit analysis of every single action like you just landed on a property in Monopoly and are trying to decide whether to buy it, put a house on another property, or save your money in case you land on Boardwalk. It shoves the fact you're playing a game in your face, and what I want is something that doesn't do that for every single mythic action.
I much prefer the 3.5e epic feats. The choice wasn't "do I spend my mythic power on this attack," it was a more fundamental "in what way is this particular character powerful" decision. Sure, some of the epic classes had N/day abilities, but every epic action wasn't N/day or pay to play.
Like I've said many, many times. I really want to see something concrete other than a bunch of teasers - it's quite hard to get a feel for what the overall system is like.
Also, my two cents about the name: keep the term Mythic Levels - not only is it consistent with other character advancement, but tiers is something different - the most common way I see it used it to categorize groupings of things (for example, "At tier one, this encounter has two manticores. At tier 10, it's three 8-headed Lernean cryohydras and a disjunction trap."
I read this as "the saké of more mythic levels." Mmmm... mythic-level saké......only completing deeds for the sake of more mythic levels).
... you have my attention.
Well, brewing some mythic sake (and then using it to help kill a mythic beast) certainly gained one mythological character a new mythic level (and a nifty new sword, which probably added another level).
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I certainly see what you are saying, and I am more like you in that I hope we have permanent Mythic abilities/powers we can learn. Jason indicates that “each path is granted one ability at 1st (Mythic) level.” I am hoping that means you start with one ability and you gain more (permanent) abilities the higher Mythic level you are.But maybe some of these temporary Mythic powers have a long duration or you can burn more Mythic power to make the duration longer.
A PC with Power Attack just has it. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any limited use abilities - hell, half the stuff in the game is 1/day or ki-based, or what-have-you.
Well, yes and no. He does just HAVE Power Attack, but he still has to decide when to use it, and when to stop.
Just because a character has Power Attack does not mean he uses it EVERY TIME. He makes a cost-benefit judgment call (less in Pathfinder than the more fiddly version in 3.x) as to whether the reduced chance to hit is worth the extra damage.
I think that's part of what Frerezar was saying... the immersion-breaking part of "I use my Mythic X" is no more or less than "I use Power Attack" or "I stop using Power Attack".
Yes, that is true. But what I think gbonehead is saying is that at least with Power Attack you are not limited in the amount of times you use it, you could use it every round for every combat if you wished.
Where with what we know about Mythic abilities, you are limited by how much Mythic power that you have, therefore you need to make a choice on attacking that second time in the round again since you’ve already expended 4 out of your 6 Mythic power rating. (Mythic level +primary stat modifier)
From reading his posts, he does realize there are limited uses for abilities in PF, but he’s concerned that all the Mythic abilities will be that way. However, as it’s been determined by Jason, you do receive a permanent +20 Initiative as a Mythic level character, hopefully you will gain more permanent abilities (not limited by Mythic power) as you gain more Mythic levels.
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Director of Games
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Hey there all,
I know folks here want some concrete examples, but I am not quite ready to give them as I am still hammering away on some core elements of the system.
That said, I do want to state that not every ability or power that you get draws upon your mythic power. Many of them are just flat upgrades that allow you to break or bend certain rules. For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
And there are, of course, abilities not tied to combat. The marshal path can get an ability that makes it so that anyone with a starting attitude of at least indifferent, treats the marshal as one step higher, due to his powerful presence.
Those are some simple examples for folks to chew on. I gotta get back to work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey there all,
I know folks here want some concrete examples, but I am not quite ready to give them as I am still hammering away on some core elements of the system.
That said, I do want to state that not every ability or power that you get draws upon your mythic power. Many of them are just flat upgrades that allow you to break or bend certain rules. For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
And there are, of course, abilities not tied to combat. The marshal class can get an ability that makes it so that anyone with a starting attitude of at least indifferent, treats the marshal as one step higher, due to his powerful presence.
Those are some simple examples for folks to chew on. I gotta get back to work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Cool.
BTW, The marshal class. Is this a new class or do you mean the Cavalier?
BTW, The marshal class. Is this a new class or do you mean the Cavalier?
I'd have to go back and check earlier in the thread, but IIRC, Marshal is the name for one of the Mythic paths (Archmage being another, again, IIRC).
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... not every ability or power that you get draws upon your mythic power. Many of them are just flat upgrades that allow you to break or bend certain rules. For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
Perfect! :-)
And there are, of course, abilities not tied to combat. The marshal path can get an ability that makes it so that anyone with a starting attitude of at least indifferent, treats the marshal as one step higher, due to his powerful presence.
Even better. Having mythical NON-combat options is, probably, more important than having mythical combat options.
Good deal.