I am starting in a new PF campaign and I don't know what to play.
I have a few concepts but they just don't fit PF's current rules. The GM has poo-pooed the few that did as being too week or too strong.
He didn't like my Arcane Duelist sword and shield idea as it is too weak.
He thought that the Synthesist was too powerful.
I like melee and especially melee/caster classes, but I have played a barbarian way too much. I have personally poo-pooed the magus in the past due to it not being full base attack class (I miss the dusk blade dearly) but I maybe open to it now.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thank you,
-Hexen
P.S. On a semi-related question is there any way around the expensive nature of putting weapon enhancements on natural weapons?
If you want to melee and cast, try the cleric, oracle, summoner (yes they can help he eidolon attack in melee), bard, inquisitor.
He was worried about something being too weak?
You could ask about the Vanguard.
Half-Orc Inquisitor with a falchion and some teamwork feats to turn him into a mobile blender! Make him an anti-mage for more fun.
Try an elven dueling dandy of a rogue. A really snooty and condescending guy who's a wiz with a rapier. Then you can use rogue talents to take "minor magic" and "major magic" to get spells. First off the top of my head...
Vivisectionist?
Melee focused (with full sneak attack) infusions to crank combat ability, extracts for 'casting'?
Lightly armored and peculiar at best, but it could be fun.
Hmm Melee casters. You could try a Bladebound Kensai Magus, or a Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Both take a few levels to get awesome but awesome they do get - assuming you build them right.
For that matter there's nothing wrong with the Arcane Duelist. The archetype falls a bit flat at the really high levels but very few of my characters make it that far. Again, if built right they can hit fairly well, do decent damage and have lots of group buffing utility.
Hmm Melee casters. You could try a Bladebound Kensai Magus, or a Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Both take a few levels to get awesome but awesome they do get - assuming you build them right.
For that matter there's nothing wrong with the Arcane Duelist. The archetype falls a bit flat at the really high levels but very few of my characters make it that far. Again, if built right they can hit fairly well, do decent damage and have lots of group buffing utility.
Was thinking Arcane Dualist 15/Fighter 1/EK 4, would this solve the problem some?
I'd have to do up a test build to see. My main issue with the Arcane Duelist is his ability to hit things - a problem he shares with the rogue. Not really noticeable at lower levels and he does have his bard buffs and songs which help quite a bit. I played one for a couple sessions and I struggled to hit high AC opponents like dragons. In those situations you better off just buffing the barbarian and dealing with any mooks.
Pathfinder isn't too keen on full-BAB casters, so you're likely going to need to put together one of the nifty combos listed above. Perhaps a half-orc elementalist wizard? Good Int and Str and you can blast and wield a falchion, mage armor and shield until you can get good bracers of armor and other protective stuff.
Elven bards give you access to decent racial weapons (d10 elven curveblade) and there are many blasty bard spells to choose from in the APG and Ult Magic.
Or a magus- I see your disdain, but maybe playing one might dispel your prejudices. (pun intended ;)
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I can assure you, Magi are not inaccurate.
Observe:
Due to moderate BAB, you lose 1 point of BAB every 3 or so levels. Due to your Arcane Pool, you can 1 point of attack and damage every 4 levels. In addition, by third level, you can add your Int bonus to all your attack rolls during your turn for a swift action and a pool point. So, at worst, you're 1 point behind full BAB with the potential to go 2~8 points above it when needed.
I'm currently playing a Magus (Kensai) 9/Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1 in PFS, and she's the most accurate character I've ever played. With Arcane Accuracy, which, thanks to a arcane pool of 11 points, I can use most every round, she's +24 (+6 BAB, +6 Dex, +4 Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +7 Arcane Accuracy) to hit and +31 (Critical Perfection) to confirm. If they're wearing metal armor or wielding a metal weapon, we go up to +27/+34.
So, while your GM may be right about the Arcane Duelist, he's entirely wrong about the Magus. Give it a try (Hint: loooots of Pearls of Power), and have a good time.
Magus or Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Arcana offsets magus's medium BAB, and dawnflower's doubled inspire (+2 at level 1, +4 at level 5, etc..) more than makes up for its medium BAB. And you get dervish dance for free at level 1, making for the only dex-based melee class that isn't hurting for feats early on.
Magus or Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Arcana offsets magus's medium BAB, and dawnflower's doubled inspire (+2 at level 1, +4 at level 5, etc..) more than makes up for its medium BAB. And you get dervish dance for free at level 1, making for the only dex-based melee class that isn't hurting for feats early on.
"You're a bard why can't you do Bardic Performance again?"
"GM said buffing the entire party's hit and damage was to weak"
Was thinking Arcane Dualist 15/Fighter 1/EK 4, would this solve the problem some?Hmm Melee casters. You could try a Bladebound Kensai Magus, or a Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Both take a few levels to get awesome but awesome they do get - assuming you build them right.
For that matter there's nothing wrong with the Arcane Duelist. The archetype falls a bit flat at the really high levels but very few of my characters make it that far. Again, if built right they can hit fairly well, do decent damage and have lots of group buffing utility.
Never take a bard into EK.
Inspire Courage keeps you within one point of full BAB Going to EK just makes you more likely to run out of rounds. You also lose two levels of casting. Arcane Duelist into EK is even worse. Bladethirst eventually outpaces inspire courage if you go single weapon and the arcane duelist gets nearly as many bonus feats as the EK (2.5 in 10 levels instead of 3). You don't choose them, but there's nothing wrong with them.
I think you can make your original Arcane Duelist concept work. 16 strength, 15 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 11 wisdom, and 14 charisma is possible at 20 point buy for a human or half-human. 15 point buy would dump wisdom, which is less disastrous than otherwise with a fast will save. You want to be human for the bonus feat.
First level feats would be two weapon fighting and improved shield bash. Getting shield slam, shield master, and improved two weapon fighting are probably worthwhile. Arcane strike and inspire courage should bring your damage up to reasonable levels and just being a bard with inspire courage makes you worth having in any party.
Okay, I will think about that.
However there is a new development in the group. Apparently the GM also doesn't want me to play a bard because another new player is going to be playing one as well.... -_-
-Hexen
Magus or Dawnflower Dervish Bard. Arcana offsets magus's medium BAB, and dawnflower's doubled inspire (+2 at level 1, +4 at level 5, etc..) more than makes up for its medium BAB. And you get dervish dance for free at level 1, making for the only dex-based melee class that isn't hurting for feats early on."You're a bard why can't you do Bardic Performance again?"
"GM said buffing the entire party's hit and damage was to weak"
Al I'm saying is... party is you (bard), barbarian, fighter, and rogue...go vanilla bard. Party is you (bard), wizard, sorceror, "caster-based" druid... maybe dawnflower dervish is the better choice.
DD Bard is basically trading in being the party buffer for being the party's unconventional big stupid fighter. Except you still have spells to buff the party with.
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Inquisitor is a really solid class that covers pretty much whatever base you want it to in combat (melee/ranged) gives you some solid bard progression casting and is pretty sweet over-all. Just pick a domain or inquisiton that meshes well with what you want to do. They're definitely a class that's easy to underestimate until you play one since nothing seems to jump out at you until you put everything together, but buffs that you can adjust as a swift action for attack, damage, healing, saves and pretty much whatever else you need is nothing to scoff at, and their spell list is solid with some surprisingly good choices. Since they treat all their allies as having Teamwork feats for the effects of the ones take through their Bonus Feat class feature, they even have some fun options that normally require building your character to compliment someone else's (see Precise Strike, Coordinated Defense/Maneuvers, Coordinated Charge, and more).
Inquisitor is a really solid class that covers pretty much whatever base you want it to in combat (melee/ranged) gives you some solid bard progression casting and is pretty sweet over-all. Just pick a domain or inquisiton that meshes well with what you want to do. They're definitely a class that's easy to underestimate until you play one since nothing seems to jump out at you until you put everything together, but buffs that you can adjust as a swift action for attack, damage, healing, saves and pretty much whatever else you need is nothing to scoff at, and their spell list is solid with some surprisingly good choices. Since they treat all their allies as having Teamwork feats for the effects of the ones take through their Bonus Feat class feature, they even have some fun options that normally require building your character to compliment someone else's (see Precise Strike, Coordinated Defense/Maneuvers, Coordinated Charge, and more).
Do a lot of Inquisitor spells have semantic components?
Do you mean Somatic?
The Inquisitor casts divine spells, and armor does not interfere with his spellcasting.
Yes I do mean Somatic, but I was wondering about TWF.
No, not really.
Two weapon fighting is hard to pull off. Two handed weapon is easier to work with.Is there a particular weapon you have in mind?
No not really, was thinking about a pair of Kukri for the crit range.
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No not really, was thinking about a pair of Kukri for the crit range.No, not really.
Two weapon fighting is hard to pull off. Two handed weapon is easier to work with.Is there a particular weapon you have in mind?
You'd be better off focusing on a THW like BBT suggested, most casting classes just don't have enough feats to make TWF a good option.
An Inquisitor of Gorum using Coordinated Charge with a Greatsword can be awesome, especially if you've got a barbarian or cavalier in the group.Target of Opportunity is another sweet teamwork feat if you've got a ranged character in your group, since you can add an extra ranged attack as an immediate action whenever someone else makes a ranged attack.
One of the best things about an Inquisitor, is that if you know what the other players in your group are playing, you can choose the right Teamwork Feats to shoehorn a lot of extra attacks into a given combat.
What about claws? I was thinking about maybe playing a Lizardfolk.
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What about claws? I was thinking about maybe playing a Lizardfolk.
You don't need TWF for claws, as primary natural attacks you get one attack with each at your full BAB. If you were to use a one handed weapon, you could make your full iterative attacks with the weapon, and then an extra attack with the claw that's not holding a weapon at -5 with .5 STR to damage.
Claws wouldn't be bad if you wanted to mix and match melee and ranged though, since you wouldn't need to worry about sheathing a sword to draw your ranged weapon.
Remember that you don't get iterative attacks for a high BAB with natural weapons though. If your BAB is +15/+10/+5 and you're fighting with claws, you only get 2 claw attacks at +15 each (unless you've managed to get additional natural weapons like a bite by this point).
What about claws? I was thinking about maybe playing a Lizardfolk.You don't need TWF for claws, as primary natural attacks you get one attack with each at your full BAB. If you were to use a one handed weapon, you could make your full iterative attacks with the weapon, and then an extra attack with the claw that's not holding a weapon at -5 with .5 STR to damage.
Claws wouldn't be bad if you wanted to mix and match melee and ranged though, since you wouldn't need to worry about sheathing a sword to draw your ranged weapon.
Remember that you don't get iterative attacks for a high BAB with natural weapons though. If your BAB is +15/+10/+5 and you're fighting with claws, you only get 2 claw attacks at +15 each (unless you've managed to get additional natural weapons like a bite by this point).
ARG lizardfolk get both claw and bite attacks.
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ARG lizardfolk get both claw and bite attacks.What about claws? I was thinking about maybe playing a Lizardfolk.You don't need TWF for claws, as primary natural attacks you get one attack with each at your full BAB. If you were to use a one handed weapon, you could make your full iterative attacks with the weapon, and then an extra attack with the claw that's not holding a weapon at -5 with .5 STR to damage.
Claws wouldn't be bad if you wanted to mix and match melee and ranged though, since you wouldn't need to worry about sheathing a sword to draw your ranged weapon.
Remember that you don't get iterative attacks for a high BAB with natural weapons though. If your BAB is +15/+10/+5 and you're fighting with claws, you only get 2 claw attacks at +15 each (unless you've managed to get additional natural weapons like a bite by this point).
Sounds like a pretty good way to go then. And it actually gives you a little initiative to go with a 3/4 BAB class since the last attack would be wasted in many circumstances. A Lizardfolk Inquisitor with the Anger Inquisition running the Destruction, Justice, and Smiting (or Healing or Resiliency depending on whether you need to overcome DR) Judgements could be a real monster.
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What APs are you guys playing in that 3/4 bab melee are considered 'too weak'?
The arcane duelist bard is incredible. The magus is straight up broken.
Play either one and prove your DM wrong.
I've actually found that none of my current favorites right now are full BAB classes. Inquisitor and Magus are better in combat than many full BAB builds at quite a few levels. Dwarven Inquisitors can make remarkably effective tanks with the right feats while still dealing solid damage, and Magus probably spikes higher damage per round than any of the full BAB classes.
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What APs are you guys playing in that 3/4 bab melee are considered 'too weak'?
The arcane duelist bard is incredible. The magus is straight up broken.
Play either one and prove your DM wrong.
People whine about how weak monks are but in Council of Thieves our non-optimized monk shredded everything. Standards might be a bit skewed for some folks.
I just had an interesting idea for a TWF inquisitor. Take a catfolk and get the claws racial trait. use the natural attacks until you start getting more attacks from bab then add in the clawblades =). Hands free to do whatever somantics needed, and still ginsuing away whenever you pull off a full attack.
I agree, it's not perfect and alot of people just dont like the whole catfolk concept, but it could be fun and might work for what the OP wants.
Asta
PSY
GM started getting passive in saying I couldn't play a lizardfolk or even a tiefling for his RotRLs reprint game. So I decided with all the other conversations it would be best to just find a different game.