Slice out the item creation rules then. Easy enough.
Or re-add XP costs.
As I said, any problem is easily fixed by the GM.
Oberoni.
Not valid.
The problem is self created. The magic item rules are not inherently broken, they are broken for how YOU choose to play the game.
Because the issue is self-created, it is only fixable by yourself.
For my style of game, the magic item creation rules work fine, so they are definitely not objectively broken.
The problem doesn't exist with the rule, it exists with your use of it.
"Oberoni" is a fallacy that lead to 4e.
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Game systems are built on trade offs.
Realism vs how many factors one can actually keep track of at the table.
Balance vs variety and difference between classes.
Pathfinder does a good job of walking the line for a playable system with lots of options that can be managed by a good GM.
No other system is as good at what I am looking for.
Oberoni.Not valid.
The problem is self created. The magic item rules are not inherently broken, they are broken for how YOU choose to play the game.
Because the issue is self-created, it is only fixable by yourself.
For my style of game, the magic item creation rules work fine, so they are definitely not objectively broken.
The problem doesn't exist with the rule, it exists with your use of it.
That is entirely, objectively wrong. The game is created around an assumption of four or five player characters ( look at the XP chart ) at fifteen point buy having a certain WBL at certain levels.
Adventure Paths, the primary source of income for Paizo, are created and balanced around this particular assumption.
That is RAW and no endless reciting of "Homebrew, GM fiat, blablabla" will change that.
Any mechanic which obviously breaks this paradigm is objectively problematic to the base structure of the game. Furthermore, it still is obviously problematic to less structured campaigns where the GM rightfully assumes that he should keep the general WBL guidelines up.
And magic item crafting, using RAW, breaks this paradigm something fierce. One can either heavy-handedly give out less overall loot and/or speed up the time-table of the campaign or one can look for a decent mechanical solution.
The base game should be better balanced. I have yet to see the developers even acknowledge the problem, though I am far from the first person to point it out.
Oberoni.Not valid.
The problem is self created. The magic item rules are not inherently broken, they are broken for how YOU choose to play the game.
Because the issue is self-created, it is only fixable by yourself.
For my style of game, the magic item creation rules work fine, so they are definitely not objectively broken.
The problem doesn't exist with the rule, it exists with your use of it.
That is entirely, objectively wrong. The game is created around an assumption of four or five player characters ( look at the XP chart ) at fifteen point buy having a certain WBL at certain levels.
Adventure Paths, the primary source of income for Paizo, are created and balanced around this particular assumption.
That is RAW and no endless reciting of "Homebrew, GM fiat, blablabla" will change that.Any mechanic which obviously breaks this paradigm is objectively problematic to the base structure of the game. Furthermore, it still is obviously problematic to less structured campaigns where the GM rightfully assumes that he should keep the general WBL guidelines up.
And magic item crafting, using RAW, breaks this paradigm something fierce. One can either heavy-handedly give out less overall loot and/or speed up the time-table of the campaign or one can look for a decent mechanical solution.
The base game should be better balanced. I have yet to see the developers even acknowledge the problem, though I am far from the first person to point it out.
And the Adventure Paths are meant to be modified if necessary based on your player's skill level.
Combine this with the fact that Paizo themselves "houserule" out the magic item creation rules for PFS AP play means even they are willing to remove the rule for the sake of their APs.
So do what Paizo does and remove them if they're an issue in your game.
They're not one in mine and I would hate to see them modified to something that would restrict my players more.
You'd hate to see them modified even if the new version would be better balanced? Okay. I see we have no basis of discussion, anyway. Also, once again, Oberoni.
And Paizo is not removing them at all for normal AP play. If they had the balls to do so, I'd congraulate them on it, though.
Pathfinder Society is not even meant for APs, unless I am mistaken, they got their own scenarios.
Can someone cross-post the Oberoni thing for those of us who don't get it and can't look at 4Chan stuff from work? I'm extremely familiar with Stormwind but other than hearing the name on occasion in connection I don't know what Oberoni is.
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That is entirely, objectively wrong...
Maybe the devs don't acknowledge it because it isn't as objective as you think. I've personally never seen any issues with item crafting. I intend to make a full-on item-crafting specialized wizard in our upcoming Jade Regent campaign, so I'm going to try and go out of my way to get full use out of the rules. Will I break the game doing that? I doubt it, but check back in in a few months.
You keep saying it's objectively broken, but if it is, you should be able to provide objective evidence. So far, you've only provided subjective evidence where you've provided any evidence at all.
Again, I simply can't understand this hate and fear of item crafting. It's no where near as bad as some people make it out to be.
Would you consider a feat that says "+1 WBL if you spend a few days working for the extra money" to be broken?
Edit: Ninja'd
I exclusively GM APs and I do not have the problem.
Apart from that, compare an optimized PC with access to all the official splatbooks to a mediocre core PC.
Add an experienced player vs a beginner.
Don't you think that the difference in power is much higher than having even double the WBL?
You'd hate to see them modified even if the new version would be better balanced? Okay. I see we have no basis of discussion, anyway. Also, once again, Oberoni.
And Paizo is not removing them at all for normal AP play. If they had the balls to do so, I'd congraulate them on it, though.
Pathfinder Society is not even meant for APs, unless I am mistaken, they got their own scenarios.
Once again, they are imbalanced for YOU based on your chosen method of play and your lack of desire to modify your encounters based on your players' level of game mastery.
They are not imbalanced in my game, or other sandbox style games run by many GMs.
Hence they are not objectively unbalanced, hence Oberoni does not apply.
The imbalance only exists when filtered through how YOU play. Others play like you too, but not all of us do.
I can't say whether or not I've had the problem as my Kingmaker game's Oracle is the first time EVER I've had a PC take a crafting feat, excluding Alchemists and Witches who start with Brew Potion/Cauldron.
I don't get a lot of Wizards in play in my groups though. See a lot more Sorcs/Psionicists/3.5 Warlocks and other Invocation users.
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I had a Wizard in my last game who pretty much only had item crafting feats. The more he made and sold, the more I increased the magic item arsenal of local thugs who were taking advantage of his driving prices down.
When every humanoid encounter started having wand users, he came to the realization that he was an indirect arms dealer.
I applaud your GM there. That's pretty clever.
I was the GM ;)
Can someone cross-post the Oberoni thing for those of us who don't get it and can't look at 4Chan stuff from work? I'm extremely familiar with Stormwind but other than hearing the name on occasion in connection I don't know what Oberoni is.
Sure. Quoted from my link earlier:
The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.
The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.
Maybe the devs don't acknowledge it because it isn't as objective as you think. I've personally never seen any issues with item crafting. I intend to make a full-on item-crafting specialized wizard in our upcoming Jade Regent campaign, so I'm going to try and go out of my way to get full use out of the rules. Will I break the game doing that? I doubt it, but check back in in a few months.
You keep saying it's objectively broken, but if it is, you should be able to provide objective evidence. So far, you've only provided subjective evidence where you've provided any evidence at all.
So far the counter-argument has been "Well, it isn't broken in my game, therefore you are wrong!!!", which is the essence of Oberoni. That has been the attack line since the moment I said that I could make a good case that magic item crafting objectively is broken, without even asking what my mechanical arguments for that were.
Again, I simply can't understand this hate and fear of item crafting. It's no where near as bad as some people make it out to be.
Would you consider a feat that says "+1 WBL if you spend a few days working for the extra money" to be broken?
Uh, yes? How is that even a question?
But since I am quite tired of all the attacks on the topic, instead of the actual argument, here is why I think magic item crafting in Pathfinder specifically is a broken mechanic.
1.) The game assumes four PCs
2.) The game assumes WBL
3.) The game assumes a 15 point buy.
4.) CRs are built around this assumption.
Those four things are all facts, substantiated by RAW and past comments by developers on this board.
Given those four factors, any unbalance in that design will create extra work for the GM to rebalance encounters. While extra players and different point-buys are relatively easily countered ( via extra opponents and advanced templates ), WBL balancing is very difficult to measure. You cannot just give NPCs more money to spend on equipment, because that equipment will inevitably end up in the PCs hands ( further exarbating the WBL problem ) and monsters don't have a WBL to measure against.
That basic paradigm explained, we get on to the actual problem topic:
Magic item crafting lost its XP component completely in Pathfinder and thusly is, by RAW, only balanced by a time factor and the incoming money the party gets. The only methods by RAW a GM has to rectify the imbalance upon core game assumptions is to either tighten the influx of loot or to speed up the campaign. I disregard RP reasons for individual item crafters, because those are highly individualistic and not germane to a game balance discussion.
Outside of those two heavy-handed approaches to straightening out the imbalance PF magic item crafting creates, a mechanical solution to the core rule system would probably be better suited to rectify the problem at its root.
My personal solution, as mentioned upthread, is to raise item creation costs to 95% market price, give players then the option to sell their newly created items at full market price, but speed up magic item creation times, so as to let them use the new focus of the item creation feats on character customization more effectively. That is very likely not a viable approach for everyone else, but it works for my needs.
Paizo should still address the core imbalance of the system at some point in the future.
Works for you, doesn't work for me.
Limits my player's options and gives me nothing in return.
I gain no benefit from that change, only negatives.
It basically turns each Magic Item Creation feat into a 5% discount on a given item type, which is not something I would waste an entire feat on.
They'd arguably become some of the worst feats in the game.
Right now, PF is balanced for me and my players.
Can someone cross-post the Oberoni thing for those of us who don't get it and can't look at 4Chan stuff from work? I'm extremely familiar with Stormwind but other than hearing the name on occasion in connection I don't know what Oberoni is.Sure. Quoted from my link earlier:
The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.
The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.
I'm going to side with FG here slightly and say no, he's not saying an Oberoni fallacy then. He's not saying the feats are broken because they can be houseruled, he's saying they're not broken at all, at least in his experience. From what he's saying, he's running them straight out of the book with no adjustments and having zero issues of game balance.
That's not Oberoni, that's just disagreeing.
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My car isn't broken, but I should care because you think that the car is built so that it will get broken at some point, for somebody, sometime. There's no logic in that. Not even if you had any credentials to support your subjective opinion.
Oberoni is an excuse for lazy people who try to sound more intelligent than they really are :P
Works for you, doesn't work for me.
Limits my player's options and gives me nothing in return.
I gain no benefit from that change, only negatives.
It basically turns each Magic Item Creation feat into a 5% discount on a given item type, which is not something I would waste an entire feat on.
They'd arguably become some of the worst feats in the game.
Right now, PF is balanced for me and my players.
Right now, there is no better feat in the game than Craft Wondrous Item. None. Well, unerrataed Antagonize, but that one was created so obviously broken that everyone saw it, aside from the editors and developers when they checked the book for printing.
And how would my solution limit your players options? Yeah, they have to get things at their WBL rather than double their WBL. Ooooh, scary. The customization factor of magic item crafting would still remain.
Nonetheless, I already said that my solution would not work for everybody. I just had hoped for, um, a more mechanically sound explanation why that is so from your part.
Can someone cross-post the Oberoni thing for those of us who don't get it and can't look at 4Chan stuff from work? I'm extremely familiar with Stormwind but other than hearing the name on occasion in connection I don't know what Oberoni is.Sure. Quoted from my link earlier:
The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.
The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.
I'm going to side with FG here slightly and say no, he's not saying an Oberoni fallacy then. He's not saying the feats are broken because they can be houseruled, he's saying they're not broken at all, at least in his experience. From what he's saying, he's running them straight out of the book with no adjustments and having zero issues of game balance.
That's not Oberoni, that's just disagreeing.
Exactly.
The rule isn't broken, the rule is only broken when filtered through the lens of particular GM's play styles.
Any rule can become broken when interacting with the style of a player or GM.
I'm going to side with FG here slightly and say no, he's not saying an Oberoni fallacy then. He's not saying the feats are broken because they can be houseruled, he's saying they're not broken at all, at least in his experience. From what he's saying, he's running them straight out of the book with no adjustments and having zero issues of game balance.
That's not Oberoni, that's just disagreeing.
Well, I provided the mechanical reasons in my post above.
Well, I provided the mechanical reasons in my post above.I'm going to side with FG here slightly and say no, he's not saying an Oberoni fallacy then. He's not saying the feats are broken because they can be houseruled, he's saying they're not broken at all, at least in his experience. From what he's saying, he's running them straight out of the book with no adjustments and having zero issues of game balance.
That's not Oberoni, that's just disagreeing.
That's fair.
It's more let's stop claiming a fallacy when there isn't one =)
Works for you, doesn't work for me.
Limits my player's options and gives me nothing in return.
I gain no benefit from that change, only negatives.
It basically turns each Magic Item Creation feat into a 5% discount on a given item type, which is not something I would waste an entire feat on.
They'd arguably become some of the worst feats in the game.
Right now, PF is balanced for me and my players.
Right now, there is no better feat in the game than Craft Wondrous Item. None. Well, unerrataed Antagonize, but that one was created so obviously broken that everyone saw it, aside from the editors and developers when they checked the book for printing.
And how would my solution limit your players options? Yeah, they have to get things at their WBL rather than double their WBL. Ooooh, scary. The customization factor of magic item crafting would still remain.
Nonetheless, I already said that my solution would not work for everybody. I just had hoped for, um, a more mechanically sound explanation why that is so from your part.
It would limit their options as they'd now be able to build half the magic items they could previously unless I want to start giving out double the gold.
It makes the Craft feats 5% discounts, arguably the worst feats in the game at that point.
It would make the PC who wanted to focus in crafting literally a walking 5% discount.
Again, no problem exists with the item creation rules, the problem exists only when filtered through how you play.
Since the problem only exists there, then house rule it. That's not Oberoni, I'm not saying that it's not broken because it can be houseruled, I'm saying that because it is broken FOR YOU, then YOU should house rule it.
Then your problem is solved without affecting the rest of us.
Something is only objectively broken when it is broken in 100% of situations.
That's fair.
It's more let's stop claiming a fallacy when there isn't one =)
But there actually is. I outlined the basic assumptions of the game ( 4 PCs, WBL, 15 point buy, monster CR balanced on those three factors ) and then explained how magic item crafting obviously breaks those assumptions. Their response: "Well, in MY GAME blablabla". That is the essence of Oberoni.
I'd love to see people stop claiming that their obvious Oberoni fallacy is not, because everything is subjective. In that case we can all play magical tea party and stop balance discussions altogether. Which, as it seems, is the ultimate goal of some people here.
Right now, there is no better feat in the game than Craft Wondrous Item. None...
"As the monstrous hordes brand upon the city walls time and again you feel that you can not afford the time to Craft a Wondrous Item."
"Gee, worst feat ever, can I switch to Improved Ini?"
"Sure"
It would limit their options as they'd now be able to build half the magic items they could previously unless I want to start giving out double the gold.
Wait, so you want people at double their WBL? Okaaayyyy...
It makes the Craft feats 5% discounts, arguably the worst feats in the game at that point.
Worse than Prone Shooter? Not really.
Item creation feats would become customization tools, instead of the pure power ups they are now. Sure, they would be substantially weaker. They need to be so.
It would make the PC who wanted to focus in crafting literally a walking 5% discount.
And be able to customize the gear they get, which otherwise would be completely up to GM whim.
Again, no problem exists with the item creation rules, the problem exists only when filtered through how you play.
Still wrong. Still no mechanical argument from you.
Since the problem only exists there, then house rule it. That's not Oberoni, I'm not saying that it's not broken because it can be houseruled, I'm saying that because it is broken FOR YOU, then YOU should house rule it.
No, you refuse to engage the mechanical problems with the core rule assumptions of the game, which I pointed out.
Something is only objectively broken when it is broken in 100% of situations.
Item crafting is broken in 98% of all situations, the two situations where it is not being first level campaigns and one-day campaigns.
That's fair.
It's more let's stop claiming a fallacy when there isn't one =)
But there actually is. I outlined the basic assumptions of the game ( 4 PCs, WBL, 15 point buy, monster CR balanced on those three factors ) and then explained how magic item crafting obviously breaks those assumptions. Their response: "Well, in MY GAME blablabla". That is the essence of Oberoni.
I'd love to see people stop claiming that their obvious Oberoni fallacy is not, because everything is subjective. In that case we can all play magical tea party and stop balance discussions altogether. Which, as it seems, is the ultimate goal of some people here.
My only goal is to not have something I enjoy mucked about by someone who believes their opinion is somehow more objective than others.
Your response is also only related to how you play. You refuse to adjust APs, that's going to get them broken with or without magic items. I could build you a character right now that would laugh their way through an AP, they are built for often built for players with low to average game mastery.
You're accusing me of saying "Well in my game" while you are doing the exact same thing. Your quoting mechanics meant as guide-lines like they're biblical.
A party of four 3rd level characters will not always be challenged by a CR 3 or 4 encounter. A character's wealth will not always be what WBL states. These are meant as guidelines to be adjusted based on your players
You are SUPPOSED to adjust encounters according to the skill of your players.
Right now, there is no better feat in the game than Craft Wondrous Item. None..."As the monstrous hordes brand upon the city walls time and again you feel that you can not afford the time to Craft a Wondrous Item."
"Gee, worst feat ever, can I switch to Improved Ini?"
"Sure"
"Hey, but mechanically I can craft one fourth of my normal crafting value per day even while adventuring. Half of it if I take a +5 to my DC"
"I am a powerful GM and my fiat is THAT YOU CAN'T!"
"<sigh> Okay, gimme that Improved Initiative".
But there actually is. I outlined the basic assumptions of the game ( 4 PCs, WBL, 15 point buy, monster CR balanced on those three factors ) and then explained how magic item crafting obviously breaks those assumptions. Their response: "Well, in MY GAME blablabla". That is the essence of Oberoni.That's fair.
It's more let's stop claiming a fallacy when there isn't one =)
I can't respond to this because I've never used those rules. Never paid much attention to WBL (except when creating a new character above 1st), never used 15-point buy, never run APs/whatever straight out of the box with no adjustments, etc. So I really have no perspective on them whatsoever.
PS: Try to avoid the use of the word "obvious". If anything were obvious, we wouldn't be arguing so much.
My only goal is to not have something I enjoy mucked about by someone who believes their opinion is somehow more objective than others.
Your response is also only related to how you play. You refuse to adjust APs, that's going to get them broken with or without magic items. I could build you a character right now that would laugh their way through an AP, they are built for often built for players with low to average game mastery.
You're accusing me of saying "Well in my game" while you are doing the exact same thing. Your quoting mechanics meant as guide-lines like they're biblical.
A party of four 3rd level characters will not always be challenged by a CR 3 or 4 encounter. A character's wealth will not always be what WBL states. These are meant as guidelines to be adjusted based on your players
You are SUPPOSED to adjust encounters according to the skill of your players.
And yet we have those base assumptions around which CRs are built.
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Okay sunshine, you want to go debate mode?
First, you are the person putting forth the positive statement: Magic item creation rules ARE broken.
I am putting forth that they are not, that's the negative statement.
In debate rules, you go first, you have to prove your point without reasonable doubt. I only have to poke holes.
I am not required to put forth any argument, only to poke holes in yours, that's how a positive statement vs negative statement debate works.
It is impossible to prove a negative, it is only possible to disprove a positive.
First: You used the statement "If Item Creation rules are broken 98% of the time"
Please provide data to show the instance of how often the Item Creation Rules are broken. Include a sample size of at least three digits.
Please provide several SPECIFIC cases of the item creation rules breaking the game. Please provide as much detail as possible for these specific situations. Please provide access to the player's involved so they can be questioned.
Please show the math as to how much the power level of a PC increases when compared to CR when they are what you would probably considered "over equipped."
You want to get objective, then let's get objective.
I am only stating that your opinion is false, hence I have no evidence I need to display. I must simply criticize yours.
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Oh, yeah, downtime. Stop giving it to your players. Sorry, no sleep for 48 hours or the clown will eat you. Seriously. Dream clown. Eats people who sleep. No save.If you need to resort to this sort of godming something has gone wrong.
Well, yeah, if you do that all the time.
But once in a while? Isn't that what the spell nightmare is for?
"Hey, but mechanically I can craft one fourth of my normal crafting value per day even while adventuring. Half of it if I take a +5 to my DC"
Sure, the other PCs will do some short forages into the wild meanwhile with random encounters and the accompanied exp gain.
Take your time.
Okay sunshine, you want to go debate mode?
First, you are the person putting forth the positive statement: Magic item creation rules ARE broken.
I am putting forth that they are not, that's the negative statement.
In debate rules, you go first, you have to prove your point without reasonable doubt. I only have to poke holes.
I am not required to put forth any argument, only to poke holes in yours, that's how a positive statement vs negative statement debate works.
It is impossible to prove a negative, it is only possible to disprove a positive.
First: You used the statement "If Item Creation rules are broken 98% of the time"
Please provide data to show the instance of how often the Item Creation Rules are broken. Include a sample size of at least three digits.
Please provide several SPECIFIC cases of the item creation rules breaking the game. Please provide as much detail as possible for these specific situations. Please provide access to the player's involved so they can be questioned.
Please show the math as to how much the power level of a PC increases when compared to CR when they are what you would probably considered "over equipped."
You want to get objective, then let's get objective.
I am only stating that your opinion is false, hence I have no evidence I need to display. I must simply criticize yours.
<sigh> Yes, that is how debate works on FOX News. Congratulations.
I gave mechanical reasons, you have not once tried to dispute those. Just yelling "WROOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG!!!!" is not debate, it is hooliganism.
"Hey, but mechanically I can craft one fourth of my normal crafting value per day even while adventuring. Half of it if I take a +5 to my DC"Sure, the other PCs will do some short forages into the wild meanwhile with random encounters and the accompanied exp gain.
Take your time.
Uh, you might want to check up on item creation rules.
"The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)."
"This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5."
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No, that's how a debate WORKS.
I am not making a positive statement, I am simply making the statement that you are wrong.
It's like a court case.
You are the positive statement, the prosecution. You are making the statement that Pathfinder is guilty of broken magic item rules.
I am the defense. The defense never has to prove innocents, they just must cast doubt on the guilt.
The defense doesn't have to prove he didn't do it, he has to prove that the evidence that says he did is wrong.
This is the FOUNDATION of logical argument.
So, you have put forth the positive statement.
I am saying your statement is false.
Now give me the information I requested so that I may then begin the poking of holes.
If you fail to prove your case, the defense wins by default. Exactly as if the prosecution has failed the burden of proof.
You have given the mechanical example of how magic item creation rules can mess up CRs.
I have pointed out that CRs are a) guidelines and b) already easily messed up by simply having skilled players at your table, such as the infamous "min-maxer".
I have cast doubt on your first point.
You must now reinforce that point, or concede and move onto another point which I, again, simply have to poke holes in.
YOU wanted objectivity.
This is what that looks like.
And still you can reasonably rule that if you craft while doing other things you will suffer some drawbacks (such as being distracted during your watch).
Also this way it will take quite some time to craft a reasonable, WBL affecting amount of magic items. Months to be sure.
So yeah, if time does not matter in your campaign and is a unlimited resource (we start adventuring again after we crafted 8 months), crafting is in the league of Leadership and important combat feats.
And still, this is no more unbalancing than min maxing in general with splatbook feats and optimisation and all.
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You don't need house rules to constrain item creation. It's the gold. That's in the rules. Not Rule zero. GM controls the flow of rewards. That's his mandated role.
EDIT: To clarify: the party gets a lot of great gear from crafting. The party is now effectively richer. Appropriate challenge goes up. The party loses a bunch of money to a random mishap. Appropriate challenge goes down. The party finds a dragon hoard that kicks them two whole WBL brackets up! Appropriate challenge goes up again. See how fun this is?
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You don't need house rules to constrain item creation. It's the gold. That's in the rules. Not Rule zero. GM controls the flow of rewards. That's his mandated role.
Uhm, you mean, I have to ADJUST the WHOLE AP so that the PCs only receive half the gold than listed?
Outrageous, I can not put that much effort into a published product to make this broken game work!
Dude. I've put forth a detailed argument. You have not bothered to dispute me on any of its points, aside from "That's not how it works in my campaigns", which is not even germane to the basis of my argument of why magic item rafting is unbalanced against the core assumptions of the game.
As such, you already failed in trying to disprove the argument, because you are trying to disprove the symptons, not the root of it. If you want to disprove the mechanical reasoning I've put forth, the point of attack is my assertion that the core game mechanics are built of 4 PCs, WBL and 15 point buy = monster CR, not that magic item crafting works fine in your game.
Your move.
No, that's how a debate WORKS.
The technical term for this is Burden of the Affirmative.
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You don't need house rules to constrain item creation. It's the gold. That's in the rules. Not Rule zero. GM controls the flow of rewards. That's his mandated role.Uhm, you mean, I have to ADJUST the WHOLE AP so that the PCs only receive half the gold than listed?
Outrageous, I can not put that much effort into a published product to make this broken game work!
Then play another game.
I would never dream of running an AP without editing a single line. That, to me, is bad GMing.
Also, the meta-argument about what debate is, that's really annoying. What we're doing here is bickering plain and simple.
You don't need house rules to constrain item creation. It's the gold. That's in the rules. Not Rule zero. GM controls the flow of rewards. That's his mandated role.
EDIT: To clarify: the party gets a lot of great gear from crafting. The party is now effectively richer. Appropriate challenge goes up. The party loses a bunch of money to a random mishap. Appropriate challenge goes down. The party finds a dragon hoard that kicks them two whole WBL brackets up! Appropriate challenge goes up again. See how fun this is?
It's a heavy handed approach, which, yes, forces me to substantially rebalance sections of the AP.
Apparently objecting to that is disgusting behaviour for some people. Oh noes, will I lose my GM credentials?
Man, I'm tired of this argument.
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Would you consider a feat that says "+1 WBL if you spend a few days working for the extra money" to be broken?Uh, yes? How is that even a question?
Uh, yes. It's an actual question. To be more specific, imagine a feat that said "You can scrounge up 1000 gp per day of work up to a maximum of 30% of your WBL." That should be a bit better than any one crafting feat (rough estimate of percent value, no spell requirements, etc). Yes, it's powerful. Would every character ever take it? No. Is it more powerful than Leadership? Not really.
What could you buy with an extra 30%? Well, just as an example, a 10th level character should have around 62,000 gp. If they spend a bit more than 25% of that on a weapon, they could afford a +3 weapon. With 30% extra, if they spent all the extra on their weapon, they could afford a +4. They should gain enough money over the next level to afford that sometime before they level up anyway. That doesn't sound too bad for the price of a feat. (+1 hit and +1 damage with a specific weapon isn't out of line for a feat.)
But since I am quite tired of all the attacks on the topic, instead of the actual argument, here is why I think magic item crafting in Pathfinder specifically is a broken mechanic.
You've only just now given an actual argument, so now I can actually address that.
1.) The game assumes four PCs
Agreed.
2.) The game assumes WBL
Not quite. The game does assume WBL, but only roughly. After all, it's not as if the players suddenly gain 20,000 gp when they advance from level 10 to 11.
3.) The game assumes a 15 point buy.
Agreed, more or less. (I've heard 20 points about as often as I've heard 15, but I don't think there's a huge difference between the two.)
4.) CRs are built around this assumption.
Agreed, to a point. CR assignment isn't exactly a science. See all the discussions on what creatures are over or under marked.
Those four things are all facts, substantiated by RAW and past comments by developers on this board.
They may all be stated by the devs, but they aren't as rigid as you make them out to be.
Also, remember that the players are using up finite resources to be able to craft items. Feats are some of the rarest and most valuable resources in the game (the most feat-heavy character, a human fighter, only gets 22 feats by level 20). Many players don't feel it's worth it to take item crafting feats over other feats. (Quite a few wizards will take craft wondrous though.)
Magic item crafting lost its XP component completely in Pathfinder and thusly is, by RAW, only balanced by a time factor and the incoming money the party gets. The only methods by RAW a GM has to rectify the imbalance upon core game assumptions is to either tighten the influx of loot or to speed up the campaign. I disregard RP reasons for individual item crafters, because those are highly individualistic and not germane to a game balance discussion.
Again, the devs made this change intentionally and have stated that magic items are supposed to be easy to craft. They obviously (well, obviously to me) feel that this isn't so unbalanced and doesn't need any changes.
So, I don't feel you've demonstrated that item crafting is objectively broken.
Edit: Ok, so I know that took me a while to type up, but still... Ninja'd x21 :P
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Dude. I've put forth a detailed argument. You have not bothered to dispute me on any of its points, aside from "That's not how it works in my campaigns", which is not even germane to the basis of my argument of why magic item rafting is unbalanced against the core assumptions of the game.
As such, you already failed in trying to disprove the argument, because you are trying to disprove the symptons, not the root of it. If you want to disprove the mechanical reasoning I've put forth, the point of attack is my assertion that the core game mechanics are built of 4 PCs, WBL and 15 point buy = monster CR, not that magic item crafting works fine in your game.
Your move.
And I DID counter those by pointing out that CR, WBL, and a 4 PC party are GUIDELINES, not UNBREAKABLE RULES.
Because they are guidelines, they are designed to be modified.
Because they are designed to be modified, the "game is designed around 4 PCs, WBL, and monster CR" is false.
I pointed this out a post ago.
They even have guidelines of how to adjust the CR for a 6 or 3 person party.
Combine this with the fact that you are encouraged to use encounters with ELs up to 3 higher than your APL all combine to show that CR is not a fixed rule.
And because it is variable, it can deal with the current magic item creation rules, YOU just have to put a tiny bit of effort in as a GM.
So unless you're willing to attack everything that can negative affect CR, you're being intellectually inconsistent by cherry picking one problem that is only a problem if you use the CR system like biblical law.