Hi,
Several rules refer to things the character is 'familiar' with. The example that comes to mind is wildshape (any [size category] that the druid is familiar with) but there are a few others, usually in relation to spell descriptions.
How do you determine whether the character is familiar with whatever it is?
My druid's been asking, and we've jury rigged some stuff about requiring slightly more exposure than having seen one. Fighting one in broad daylight, fair enough, you've seen it move, heard the noises it makes etc. Fighting one in darkness or heavy cover? Probably not enough. Sitting and observing a pair of otters for a morning would count, catching a glimpse of them in the river as you walk past, probably not.
Does that sound about the right balance?
EDIT: I'm sorry if this has been asked before. The use of this word in addition to it's "official" designation for wizards kind of throws off any search results you might get!
For druids, knowledge checks for things they haven't seen. If you've been in an encounter with it, you're familiar with it.
For druids, knowledge checks for things they haven't seen. If you've been in an encounter with it, you're familiar with it.
Thanks for that. We've actually jury rigged more or less on that basis (couldn't find an actual rule to cite beyond general knowledge rules, but they don't explicitly refer to being 'familiar' - is there such a rule at all?). I am using DC15 if it's from a terrain the druid's background suggests they're from - we're at the start of the campaign so that works well, since the halfling druid is from the Varisian river valleys and dales and we're running Serpent's Skull, I'm quite happy for them to just roll a DC15 to see if they're familiar with creatures from temperate plains/woods/hills (i.e. terrain similar to the bit of Varisia they actually lived in), 20 if creatures from cold mountains or cold seas (i.e. terrain similar to the bit of Varisia they don't live in). Beyond those terrains, I'm not sure whether I should allow knowledge checks or not for familiarity.
I mean, they're not remotely familiar with very hot jungles and plains. I.e. Sargava, smuggler's shiv or the mwangi expanse. I'm not particularly willing to just go with knowledge checks on stuff that to everyone in the party would be very exotic. Happy to accept advice on that - but I'll take under advisement that if they've had an encounter they're familiar. I'm not entirely sure that applies in all circumstances (see my two 'encounter' examples in my OP).
But it does sound like I am on more or less the right track, which is a releif. Means I'll probably be able to translate something approrpiate for other abilities/spells that have a 'familiarity' condition (with additional bonuses if the character has an appropriate favored terrain or trait etc).
Thanks for the reply!
You can basically use whatever system you and the druid player are comfortable with; provided that you're at least generous enough that the player eventually has access to at least a small variety of forms (something that can fly, something that's big, something that's good at fighting but fits in a hallway, possibly something that can swim), then the druid class doesn't fluctuate hugely in power or anything with the number of forms it has access to. You can do whatever's most fun for you, the player and the group.
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What Cheapy said + similar checks for wizards or others using Alter Self and similar spells (Arcana for Magical Beasts, Local for Humanoids, etc.) I also allow teleporters to make Knowledge Geography and Local checks to determine the precision of their 'porting. Higher rolls indicate a better familiarity with the locale allowing for more specific destinations.
You can also give the character a +2 circumstance bonus on checks for animals or creatures they haven't encountered in game but, very likely, encountered pre-gen. For instance, a druid from a fishing village may never actually encounter a seal in game, but it's a good bet he had his catch stolen by one as a kid. Keep in mind, many animals should be no-brainers.
thanks everyone, much appreciated
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I must have been writing my response while you were posting yours to Cheapy and missed it. I'd suggest scaling back the DC to 10 for the druid's homeland terrain. General information that an untrained person would know is usually a DC10 check, and identifying monsters is usually DC10+CR unless its rare or unique (DC15+CR). There's a good table here that shows identifying common animals and plants is only a DC10 as well.
I must have been writing my response while you were posting yours to Cheapy and missed it. I'd suggest scaling back the DC to 10 for the druid's homeland terrain. General information that an untrained person would know is usually a DC10 check, and identifying monsters is usually DC10+CR unless its rare or unique (DC15+CR). There's a good table here that shows identifying common animals and plants is only a DC10 as well.
ok, yes, that's a good idea for their home terrain.
In the section you linked, it says this under 'Checks' (separated for ease of discussion here):
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of
10 (for really easy questions),
15 (for basic questions), or
20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
and goes on to say, as you pointed out, DC15 for 'rare' or unique creatures. I would certainly say that everything in the jungles is rare as far as the character is concerned, so that's the base DC for seeing if features etc can be 'identified'.
But is 'identify' the same as 'familiar'?
Seems to me that familiarity would be up at the 'basic', rather than 'easy' level. What do you think? Am I being too harsh?
Let me try to explain why I'm pressing the issue as much as it must seem:
The druid is now L4, and already has something like a +8 bonus to Knowledge (nature). DC10+CR is therefore practically a forgone conclusion to the types of creatures she's likely to encounter at home at this point in the campaign. DC15+CR for the stuff in mwangi. And that's just fine for identifying that that right there is a dienonychus, so watch out cos it's got claws and a bite and some of them have poison etc. But is that the right DC for a druid who just got wildshape to see if they can shift into one?
Is that the ease of power/ability level that Pathfinder usually intends?
Note that this is my first pathfinder campaign, and the first time I've GMd DnD generally - and until now I'd only actually played up to 2.5ed. So I'm not trying to argue folks round to my way of thinking here (honest!), I'm just explaining my thought processes, trying to get a feel for how the game is generally pitched.
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Your reasoning is sound and, I can totally see making foreign creatures or even just dinosaurs a DC15+CR check in a campaign where they're uncommon or generally unknown. The way I personally run it is that having ranks in Knowledge skills represents actual study of a subject in addition to personal experience, so it makes sense to me a person who's devoted ranks into a Knowledge skill has probably heard stories, read books or seen illustrations of foreign creatures as well as domestic.
As an example, I'd still rule lions, apes and zebras at DC10+CR for a druid from Varisia because they're common enough that people have probably published books, taught lessons about them or put them in traveling shows. Maybe the druid's mentor told them stories about the time they visited Mwangi and ran into a giraffe? If the druid actually put ranks into the skill, I'd grant he was sufficiently curious about giraffes to learn more about them during in his studies. Dinosaurs, prehistoric mammals and fantastic animals like axe beaks I'd rate at DC15+CR due to their rarity and a lack of study materials. Keep in mind that only meeting the DC gets the druid the most basic information (Type, Type Traits and Name) and additional info comes at every 5 points by which the druid beats the DC. That means the druid still has to roll a 18 to know a CR3 lion can Pounce and Rake in addition to its normal bite and claw routine.
There's alot about the game that isn't laid out for a reason. How you adjudicate if a creature is rare or common is up to you and the campaign you're running. What you propose is fine if the druid never got much exposure to proper study materials or for a time when Mwangi is newly discovered by the outside world so do whatever makes sense.
Your reasoning is sound
hurrah, I shall put that on a t-shirt, forthwith.
Thanks VelcroZ, I think I get it now. And yeah, I agree that your 'big ticket' really distinctive items like giraffes, lions, T Rexes and so on I reckon would be famous enough to be common knowledge over most of the world.