Shield bash ( I know again)


Rules Questions


I was on the boards severl months ago and their were several arguments going around as to how shields as weapons worked etc. Has this been resolved in FAQ or is it still up in the air? Main points are

Does bashing and shield spikes on a heavy steel shield = 2d6?
Can you use a shield in your main hand as a primary weapon and another weapon( such as a kukri etc) in your off hand?
Is it legal to use two shields ( would never try to attempt this simply wanting to know) as weapons?

Any knowledge if this has been cleared up would be great.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the most pertinent answers are: Shield spikes are a weapon in their own right, they do not get affected by special properties of the shield itself.

Yes.

Yes, but you'd look ridiculous.


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Here are some thoughts on the subject from James. I'm mostly putting them all here for my own reference, but others may find value in them.

Karui Kage wrote:
So a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would deal 2d6 points of damage on a 'shield bash', being treated as if it were three size categories higher. This is how it was in 3.5 at least, it doesn't look like the Pathfinder rules changed any wording in that regard.
Not if you're going to play the semantics game/rules as precisely written game. Because a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it). The bashing quality says noting about improving a shield spike attack. It's ONLY about improving a shield bash attack.

In the end, it's up to you or your GM how to resolve this (as with any other) rule in your game. Adding a shield spike not only changes the amount of damage you do but also changes the TYPE of damage from bludgeoning to piercing. And you can certainly still use the edge or side of a shield to still do normal bludgeoning shield bashes with a spiked shield.

There's no analogue on the weapon side of enhancements that works the same as bashing. Maybe there should be.

In any case, I'm just not comfortable with allowing a Medium heavy shield spike to do 1d10 points of damage. That level of damage is generally reserved for two handed or exotic weapons. Bashing applying only to actual shield bashes limits Medium shields to doing 1d8 points of damage, which is on par with maximums for other 1-handed weapons. Which is good, since a shield that does 1d8 points of damage is on its own BETTER than a weapon that can't double as a shield.

Karui Kage wrote:
From a design philosophy, is it really a bad thing for an off-hand weapon with a +1 enhancement power to do 2d6 damage? A rogue with a short sword and any elemental enhancement could do the same thing. Granted, it wouldn't be as effective against a creature that could resist that type, though it can also be more effective against vulnerable creatures. Seems like a +1 Flaming Spiked Heavy Shield wouldn't really be that much of a difference.
Kinda, yes. Because Bashing isn't a weapon quality. It's a shield quality. It's a LOT cheaper to buy, and is already sort of a sneaky way to game the system to upgrade your weapon.
Karui Kage wrote:
They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.

Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.

It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.

Caoulhoun wrote:

How much damage would a shield with the following properties do if used to perform a shield bash?

+1 Heavy Steel Bashing shield, with a +1 Holy Shield Spike (sized medium)

You get to choose—either bash or spike. Only one works at a time.

It'd be like welding a dagger to your sword's pommel. If you stab with a sword, you're not using the dagger. And it's kinda silly looking. AKA: Don't do it—just enhance the bashing quality or ignore the bashing bit and just focus on the spike.

James Jacobs (Creative Director) Thu, Aug 2, 2012 wrote:
Poit wrote:

Does that mean that shield spikes and lead blades don't stack?

Also, this is a question I've asked before on the rules forum, and there doesn't seem to anything preventing these effects (shield spikes, bashing, lead blades) from stacking. Is saying these effects are size bonuses (and therefore don't stack) a house rule?

Also also, if you consider these effects to be size bonuses, does that mean they don't stack with enlarge person?

Shield spikes are baseline weapons, so lead blades works fine on them. The bashing quality is NOT a baseline weapon, which is why that's a concern.

What prevents the bashing ability from applying to a shield spike is that bashing is something you put on a shield, NOT a shield spike.

If you had a bashing shield with shield spikes, you would have two options to attack when you attack with that shield—you could shield bash and get the benefit of the bashing enhancement, or you could use the shield spikes and NOT get the bashing enhancement (you could, however, put any of the weapon qualities like keen or flaming on those spikes).

They would stack with enlarge person, since that's a physical increase to the size of the weapon. Similar to how natural armor bonuses and enhancements to natural armor bonuses (AKA a monster's racial natural armor and the effects of barkskin) tack.

If all of that is confusing... that's because it IS. The honest truth is that I don't believe that the rules for shield spikes, lead blades, and the bashing quality were ever designed with the idea that they would all work together at once. The simplest solution may just be to pick which you like more and drop the rest.

Depends on the GM's whim, I guess.

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