Hi All,
Help needed, any advice or firm rulings appreciated.
For this scenario I'll be using greater invis pre teleport. I want to arrive unnoticed, cast some pain and leave quickly (using teleport again)
My questions are;
1. When you arrive in a location using teleport does your arrival make a sound? Any sound? Is there some kind of magical arrival sound, or do your feet slap the floor, like you took a jump?
2. Does your arrival provoke an automatic perception check from your foes?
I plan on arriving 50 feet from my enemies, (not sure if this will help with perception checks) which is within casting range of my follow up spells.
Thanks in advance,
jinki
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There is nothing in the rules stating that any noise is made when teleporting besides the casting of the spell (verbal components), so upon arrival there is no sound (unless you wish to have some for flavor).
Any enemies that could see you pop-in would probably notice you immediately without making a perception check unless you teleported into an area that was shadowy or out of their line of sight, and you make an immediate stealth roll to not be noticed.
Once again there really isn't a hard rule on enemies noticing someone teleporting in though, so check with you GM on how they will handle it.
There is no sound.
2 is up for argument. By the rules you have to be taking an action in order for an opponent to get an automatic perception check. By my logic you teleport after the is complete. Your teleportation is the result of a completed action, and as long as you don't move there is no automatic perception check.
Others will argue that the spell's time and therefore your action continue until the moment you arrive, and therefore an automatic perception check should be allowed.
If I wanted to add some random chance, I'd have you make a Concentration check and use the result (plus an additional 20) as the limit for a % roll to see wether there is some kind of noise or not. The higher the % roll is above the limit, the louder the noise.
Thanks guys,
As I plan on being Greater Invisible, I should avoid being seen upon arrival. But I do feel that there would be some displacement of air at least, as Tamago says. I would prefer not as it creates a potential gap in the plan but I tend to agree.
Astral Wanderer, that is not a bad idea either. Thanks again,
jinki
It sounds like "bzzziiing" when you arrive and then a slight "thuump" when you hit the floor. Just make sure you don´t scream like this guy.
It makes kind of a "vwormp vwormp" sound. Unless you remember to activate the blue stabilizers.
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In my campaign, I say it sounds like "bamf" and it is accompanied by the slight smell of brimstone. Too many Marvel comics growing up, I guess. I do allow a perception check, but it's high. None of this is RAW, of course.
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"BAMF!" it is. Always has been. Always will be.
RAW, I'd just roll a perception check with any distance penalty or bonus for invisibility included versus your stealth check. You essentially "'moved" to that spot which would be your perception provoking action. Depending on your roll, maybe you stumbled when you came into the area making noise, you carry an odd smell from your beginning location, etc. Perception isn't just sight, it is all the senses now.
When you arrive, make a stealth check to see how quietly you arrived, that's always been the standard way to get somewhere unnoticed.
In any case your enemies would of course get a perception check to notice you. You don't have to take an action for them to get a perception check. Most perception checks are reactive, made in response to an observable stimulus (such as someone teleporting in near you).
If your GM says there is a noise, cast silence before you teleport and drop it just after you arrive so you can cast again.
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Seriously though, I've never been a fan of casting being more powerful than it already is. Putting on my GM hat, it never states there's no noise (though it never states that there is), physics would argue that there has to be (displaced air), and unless there's a Silent feat attached I see no reason to let magic get off as freebie stealth (I also don't let Silent metamagic create freebie stealth either).
A hint of brimstone for flavor and BAMF!
I see no reason to let magic get off as freebie stealth
On the same token, I see no reason to let magic auto-spoil stealth.
Unless, for some reason, I was playing in a world where ALL spells (even silent ones) went BAMF!
Unless, for some reason, I was playing in a world where ALL spells (even silent ones) went BAMF!
My reasons are that physics would dictate a sound is made when directing realism, but also from my personal GM experience: Caster players are often tricksy folks that like to find loopholes to make themselves more powerful.
They can bend reality to their whims, they get no more free cookies from me.
I do however agree that "auto-spoil" is also a problem and I don't like to do this as well. If my players wish to be stealthy, I always allow a stealth skill check. There's no reason to undermine their abilities if they happen to invest the points into them. If demanded to explain why a caster can use stealth, I retort that gracefully casting may mitigate additional unwarranted effects.
Being that the developers have stated that the component affecting metamagic feats (Still, Silent, and Eschew Materials) do not have other affects that hinder Identification and Counter-spelling, one could argue that all spells DO have a BAMF, but that's more flavor and GM fun than anything really.
We all get to play our games as we like, and I add as much fluff to my magic as I possibly can.
I see no reason to let magic get off as freebie stealthOn the same token, I see no reason to let magic auto-spoil stealth.
Unless, for some reason, I was playing in a world where ALL spells (even silent ones) went BAMF!
Nor do I. If theyre invisible and havent moved since porting in they have +40 (iirc) to stealth. Add to that a -1 perception for every 10 feet. Plus Id set the dc kinda high for just a faint bamf and a slight brimstone smell. Maybe dc 25. I hardly consider perception check dc 65 plus modifiers for distance plus the actual stealth roll to be auto-spoiling stealth.
Air displacement: Yes using physics it would make sense that theres a sound from that. But we're talking magic here not physics. For all we know the air that was in that spot gets teleported to the other side and fills the vacuum the teleporting mage leaves behind.
Or it just vanishes.
About the sound your feet make when they hit the floor or anything, that's what stealth is for.
And yes, I'd say anyone gets a perception check. Even invisible, you appear out of thin air. There's apperently some chance to see invisible people, be it just a slight difference in the way light passes through them, or whatever (otherwise it wouldn't be a +20 or +40 modifier but auto win), so that suddenly happening might be noticed by someone.
Could you perhaps give some more explanation as to what sort of location you are planning to teleport in to? A more detailed scenario of what exactly you are trying to do, and your character level, might provide some context. For example, if you are teleporting into a quiet room with guards on duty late at night, then you are likely making enough noise to be noticed just by breathing, and a stealth check might be necessary to silence the after effects of the spell and your arrival. If instead you are teleporting into the same room with guards, but there is a massive thunderstorm outside, it's very unlikely that your arrival will contribute enough noise to the ambient din to alert the guards.
There are also other ways around this depending on your level. A particularly high level character could cast Time Stop, then teleport, leave several Delayed Blast Fireballs, then teleport away before anyone even notices he was there. A somewhat lower level character could use Teleport to get to the general area, Etherial Jaunt to get through the walls or otherwise appear unobserved, followed by Greater Invisibility to maintain the disguise after dropping Etherial Jaunt, throw your spells, then teleport to leave.
There are a number of creative ways to use magic and do what you are trying to do. If you have access to the proper magic or someone who can cast it, you could potentially create that massive thunderstorm I mentioned earlier to cover your entrance.
BAMF, like Nightcrawler, lol.
Why would there be a static DC?? It is one character trying to hide while using a special movement ability. The rules cover that with an opposed stealth roll, mix in modifiers as required. Done. We're talking about what the RAW says on the subject in the rules forum, not quite sure why you'd need to start making things up when it is actually fairly well covered by the actual rules of the game.
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I thought I'd point out alot of spells don't specifically describe any sort of sound taking place even when it seems pretty obvious there should be something to hear. Sleet Storm is a great example. Just because it only mentions vision impairment in the spell description that doesn't mean the multi-round fall of pounding hail is completely silent. Similarly, a fuse grenade isn't described with any sort of sound effect when it explodes, but I'm pretty sure people are going to notice something like that. Like alot of other things, just because it isn't RAW, that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I thought I'd point out alot of spells don't specifically describe any sort of sound taking place even when it seems pretty obvious there should be something to hear. Sleet Storm is a great example. Just because it only mentions vision impairment in the spell description that doesn't mean the multi-round fall of pounding hail is completely silent. Similarly, a fuse grenade isn't described with any sort of sound effect when it explodes, but I'm pretty sure people are going to notice something like that. Like alot of other things, just because it isn't RAW, that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Exactly. I was going to use lightning bolt as my example, but sleet storm is even better.
only a lot louder.
I thought I'd point out alot of spells don't specifically describe any sort of sound taking place even when it seems pretty obvious there should be something to hear. Sleet Storm is a great example. Just because it only mentions vision impairment in the spell description that doesn't mean the multi-round fall of pounding hail is completely silent. Similarly, a fuse grenade isn't described with any sort of sound effect when it explodes, but I'm pretty sure people are going to notice something like that. Like alot of other things, just because it isn't RAW, that doesn't mean it isn't there.
This. A thousand times this.
That said, even if there's a BAMF (& let's face it, it's really the only acceptable sound...), the question is really "How loud is it"?
You may now resume the conflict...
I pondered this today and decided that as part of the spell, matter is displaced just before arrival to make space for the matter being teleported there. There may however be a pop in the place you left, and a creature may detect a sensation just before you arrive.
crimethink
03-07-2012, 07:26 AM
Let's try to put some numbers on it. The energy available when a vacuum implodes would be the work done by the atmospheric pressure closing the vacuum. The reverse (energy required to displace that air) would be the same.
so,
Work (i.e. Energy) = Force x Distance
and
Pressure = Force / Area
so
Energy = Pressure x Area x DistanceThat looks a lot like,
Energy = Pressure x Volumeso let's assume that is a reasonable ballpark measure of the energy available. Atmospheric pressure is about 100,000 Pa and the volume of a human (~70kg, roughly the same density as water) is about 0.07 cubic metres. So,
Energy = 100,000 x 0.07
= 7000JI'm not sure but according to Wiki that's about twice the muzzle energy of a rifle so the sound of a rifle shot is probably a pretty good analog for it. The actual sound will depend on how long it takes (particularly for the displacement end of things) but this is probably a good ballpark.
... If you want a physicsy answer that assumes displacement of the matter at the target end.
The RAW answer is "no more or less noise than the GM says it makes".
Personally, I'd just treat it like any other Perception skill roll to notice a creature.
I thought I'd point out alot of spells don't specifically describe any sort of sound taking place even when it seems pretty obvious there should be something to hear. Sleet Storm is a great example. Just because it only mentions vision impairment in the spell description that doesn't mean the multi-round fall of pounding hail is completely silent. Similarly, a fuse grenade isn't described with any sort of sound effect when it explodes, but I'm pretty sure people are going to notice something like that. Like alot of other things, just because it isn't RAW, that doesn't mean it isn't there.
I agree, and have always believed it not only adds more realism to game play, but zips up some of those confusing little rules that could use some fluff to smooth out.
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Yes, there is a noise.
For teleport, my thoughts exactly :)
Nightcrawler's "BAMF" is much more appropriate for dimension door, in my opinion.
Firstly, thanks for all the responses. Everyone. I am impressed. Thanks again.
Ok,
Could you perhaps give some more explanation as to what sort of location you are planning to teleport in to? A more detailed scenario of what exactly you are trying to do, and your character level, might provide some context. For example, if you are teleporting into a quiet room with guards on duty late at night, then you are likely making enough noise to be noticed just by breathing, and a stealth check might be necessary to silence the after effects of the spell and your arrival.
I need to be skinny on some detail, there may be foes watching. ;)
Environment: Dungeon, stone floor, mabey dust. No rubble, no piles of dirt, no crispy crunchy underfoot stuff.
Level: 12 - 14
Foes: 2 Divine casters and 3 melee characters. Lev 12-14.
I don't have (dont berate me here), I don't have silence, time stop, Delayed Fballs. I plan on using Finger of Death, Teleport, teleport with out error, greater invis.
GrenMeera, yep casters are tricksy, that is their thing, tricks. But I am black and white on finding a fair and reasonable path to my goal. I am not looking for broken, stacked, unfair option. (not that you suggest that by the way) I need a fair, reasonable argument as to why I can do what I hope to do... Jump in, kill, jump out.
I like the silence idea but alas.
Over to you all again. Can't wait.
Too Cool man,
I pondered this today and decided that as part of the spell, matter is displaced just before arrival to make space for the matter being teleported there. There may however be a pop in the place you left, and a creature may detect a sensation just before you arrive.
Gotta a love a community that will ponder, through out the day, the question posed by someone they have never met. Spend the time, think, and then help out.
Thanks mate. this is the second time I have posted a question to this community and each time the responses have been outstanding. Too Cool man.
Thanks.
Jinki.
blackbloodtroll,
so, you are saying that the verbal component is constant throughout the entire casting / effect period? So I am still using a verbal component whern I arrive?
I would argue that the verbal component expires just before or as the spell takes place.
For example, I make all the sounds, flick around the required material, gesticulate wildly and BAMF!, I teleport out. Spell complete. I don't think that I am still doing all this upon arrival at my destination as my casting round is over.
-jinki
Vacuum! Thats the word I was trying to think of.
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Well, it's magic. Let's not forget that part.
It is also, not movement, in how it interacts within the rules.
Any insertion of additional effects, such as a "poof" sound, is a houserule.
There are magic items that teleport you, that create such effects, while others do not.
Perhaps now, you will houserule noise into them all?
Will all teleportation create sound?
Will the Stealthy Shadowdancer no longer be able to Shadow Jump without revealing his location?
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There is no sound.
2 is up for argument. By the rules you have to be taking an action in order for an opponent to get an automatic perception check. By my logic you teleport after the is complete. Your teleportation is the result of a completed action, and as long as you don't move there is no automatic perception check.
Others will argue that the spell's time and therefore your action continue until the moment you arrive, and therefore an automatic perception check should be allowed.
By that logic, if I am hidden in a room and you enter it you never get a automatic perception check as I am not taking any action.
The rules say: "Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action." and "stimulus" isn't definite anywhere, but, as you can "intentionally search for a stimulus" it can't be limited to an action taken by the observed.
Your action of searching for a stimulus can't force the hidden guy to take an action.
So "stimulus" is the passive act of being there, not an action the hidden guy take.
In the OP situation I would have the targets of her attack make a perception check, with the appropriate modifiers for distance and situation.
She is not taking a action hiding (she has just teleported in the target area) so she would not use her stealth skill but she would have the +40 for being a invisible, stationary person .
Thanks guys,
As I plan on being Greater Invisible, I should avoid being seen upon arrival. But I do feel that there would be some displacement of air at least, as Tamago says. I would prefer not as it creates a potential gap in the plan but I tend to agree.
Astral Wanderer, that is not a bad idea either. Thanks again,
jinki
The rules don't say anything about generating a sound when teleporting. As you can teleport on the bottom of the sea or the top of a mountain without busting your eardrums or getting the bends I think that the spell will equalize the pressure and avoid a sonic boom from air displacement. After all it already equalize the speed differentials between the area from which you started to the one where you get.
Without that effect teleporting from the equator to the pole would be a very interesting but very short experience, with our heroes taking off at a speed of about 1 thousand miles/hour .
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If there are curtains or wall hangings, the displaced air might make them flutter. If there are torches nearby, they might flicker. And if there is dust on the floor, the displaced air might cause it to swirl around for a moment.
The sound should be a soft 'foomp' at best, but the visible effects of the air being displaced seems like it might be more of a giveaway.
'Castling' is also an option (air from the arrival point being teleported to the place you vacated, eliminating the 'bang' of your departure as well), but I wouldn't assume it. I would allow a Silent Teleport to create a silent departure / arrival, 'though, even if that's not technically what Silent Spell does, just because I like the idea of Silent Spell making the use of a spell more stealthy.
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Any insertion of additional effects, such as a "poof" sound, is a houserule.
It's also a houserule that wind has any sound when it blows, that swords clank when they hit each other, that running makes a sound, that guns make a sound and that you can sit down. None of these things are explained in the rules so they're all house rules.
According to "RAW", there is very little sound (and sight, smell and taste) in pathfinder.
So, other than trying to squeeze real world physics into a magical effect through some shoehorned houserules, then no.
The spell itself, makes no sound.
Neither does anything not mentioned in the Perception skill or specifically mentioned as making a sound.
For example, no monster that doesn't have a language or otherwise explicitly has it sound stated makes any noise. Including most animals.
Also, spells like Meteor Swarm are completely silent because they don't mention any sound. Even a spell like Hideous Laughter mentions nothing of sound - you can laugh silently, after all.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Personal preference? IT makes a sound = whatever the frak you want it to make.
Ususally I'll have a perception effect for my NPCs that gives some hints.
Infernal Bloodline *bamf* with a scent of sulfur.
Abysal Bloodline some random effect.
Aberrant Bloodline: Sound of a tearing in reality.
Celestial Bloodline: *pinging noise*
Technomage: Sound effect and flash of light like BSG's jump effect. (Note you'd have to be pretty big to generate the thunderclap like in the Adama maneuver.)
Osiron schooled wizard: Sounds like the Stargate Ring effect.
Irrisen Witch: Stepping Disks
etc etc.
Look at it this way from a player POV. Would you like it if the GM teleported badguys in w/o any chance to perceive them and they nuked you? Fair's fair.
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There is no sound.
2 is up for argument. By the rules you have to be taking an action in order for an opponent to get an automatic perception check. By my logic you teleport after the is complete. Your teleportation is the result of a completed action, and as long as you don't move there is no automatic perception check.
Others will argue that the spell's time and therefore your action continue until the moment you arrive, and therefore an automatic perception check should be allowed.
There is actually a lot of debate and argument on both points.
YMMV from GM to GM.
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Strawmen make no sound either.
At least, I wish they didn't.
If someone wants to take stealth away from teleporting, then that's cool.
In the end, there is no RAW support for a Teleport sound, and this is not one of those "common sense" situations either.
You really have to houserule it in there, for it to happen.
This is something you need to be cautious about too.
As the example of the Shadowdancer, whose class abilities revolve around being stealthy, and teleporting around, suddenly has a harder time doing so, with all the "Poof" and "Pamf" going on.
It's a thematic effect, for sure, but adding it has a lot of effects maybe not seen.
You have to ask, "Why is adding this necessary?".
If you cannot think of a good reason, then don't.