Pole arm master / sweeping fend question

[elgabalawi]

i've got a question about the Sweeping Fend ability that a pole arm master gets at lvl 13.

it states that one can use any spear or pole arm to make a bull rush or trip maneuver, though he takes a -4 penalty to his CMB when making such attempts. Weapons with the trip property do not incur this penalty on trip maneuvers.

my confusion is that as far as i've always understood, anyone can make a trip attack with any weapon, so anyone (let alone a pole arm master) could already make a trip attack with a pole arm or spear, which means this special ability is actually outlining a penalty (the -4 to the CMB when making a trip). i'm totally confused. i'm assuming i'm missing something. if someone could enlighten me, that would be super.

thanks in advance

[BltzKrg242]

I think they are supposed to be able to do this at reach? It does seem worded poorly... Cause as written you get no benefit at all,and, as you say, a penalty to what anyone can do...

[elgabalawi]

BltzKrg242 wrote:

I think they are supposed to be able to do this at reach? It does seem worded poorly... Cause as written you get no benefit at all,and, as you say, a penalty to what anyone can do...

hmm. i would have thought that normally you could trip with the same reach that your weapon used to attack. so are you saying that normally if you use a pole arm, you can only trip someone adjacent to you with it? that would seem weird to me, but then what you're saying about the ability would make sense.

[BltzKrg242]

reach weapons say: Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.

So it looks like you can attack but nothing else with a reach weapon. Being able to Bull Rush with reach seems like it's be downright handy. I'd have thought you could only trip at reach with a trip/reach weapon... (guisarm?)but this lets you do it with anything...

[elgabalawi]

this makes me have another question as well. i had doubly assumed that when making trip attacks with a whip that they would be done with the whip's reach (i always pictured it as using the actual whip attack to trip as opposed to having to alter how you use your weapon to make the trip attack which might justify not getting to utilize the reach when making a trip attack with a pole arm).
do others do it this way as well? or is a trip attack with a whip only supposed to be done to someone adjacent?

thanks again.

[Michael Sayre]

Yeah, I'm not sure if this is an editing error, or a hold-over from another edition or what, but you can trip with any weapon against anyone square could normally attack (as long as the defender can be tripped). Really the only benefit this gives you is the Bull Rushing trick. Unless the ability was meant to allow you to use those maneuvers and still do damage?

[Talonhawke]

This was released prior to the FAQ about any weapon being used for tripping as it stands bring it up with your GM and at least for trip your good. It is nice to be able to not only bull rush at reach but be able to add your bonues to the check.

[Umbranus]

There was a paizo blog or something once about combat maneuvers and weapons.
There it said that you can't use weapons without the appropriate special ability (like trip) for a combat maneuver.

Thus a normal guy with a weapon can trip by kicking the other guys feet away or whatever by he can't use his weapon. Meaning no reach, no enhancement bonus etc.

So the polearm master can trip using a spear getting -4 but adding his enhancementbonus and if the weapon has reach he can use that reach, too.

[Talonhawke]

If your refering to this it says the opposite.

[Umbranus]

That's not what I was refering to, or at least not what I remembered. But it contains the answer to the original question.
Good catch.

paizo blog wrote:

Update: On page 106 of the Advanced Player’s Guide, Polearm Master, Sweeping Fend ability, delete the second sentence. Replace the first sentence with “At 13th level, a polearm master can use any spear or polearm to make bull rush maneuvers, though he takes a –4 penalty on combat maneuver checks when making such attempts. When using a spear or polearm to make a trip maneuver, he treats these weapons as if they had the trip weapon feature.”

[Betsuni]

In other words Sweeping Fend gives you:
* Use any spear/pole-arm to make Bull Rush maneuvers at -4.
* Use any spear/pole-arm as if it had trip
1. Trip allows you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped on a failed roll of 10 or more.
2. Trip gives allows you to use DRAG and REPOSITION and you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll!

[elgabalawi]

thanks for the further thoughts and clarifications everyone.