I have a simple plan for a martial-arts style Oracle:
Monk Maneuver Master + Battle Oracle Maneuver Mastery + racial favored class oracle bonus = one ridiculously buffed combat maneuver, and one free combat maneuver per full attack action.
The problem is that I can't decide which maneuver. I'm leaning towards Grapple or dirty trick, but of course trip is also an option. With Maneuver Mastery you get the improved/greater feats free, and Maneuver Master monk gives you another improved maneuver feat without prereqs, but only one maneuver is going to be getting +9 from oracle by level 13...
I love trip, makes for fun scenes if the most strongest enemy warlord/sorceress constantly falls on its behind or on the face
you gain various bonuses against fallen enemies, and if they try to get up you get an attack of opportunity
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Dirty Trick for me. The ability to stack conditions, and the awesome flavor opportunities, make it my favorite.
Eye gouge: Dirty Trick.
Groin punch: Dirty Trick.
Pants the enemy: Dirty Trick.
The list goes on.
All the silly stuff my fellow players wanted to do to enemies, all covered in one maneuver, Dirty Trick.
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Dirty Trick is a beast. You get to entangle or sicken someone with no saving throw. Penalties like that can really throw a creature off their game, and with Greater Dirty Trick it can eat up just as many actions as Trip, and you won't sweat the lost AoOs because you can just flurry on him while you're Tricking him.
More importantly, grapple and trip both have Size limitations, while Dirty Trick works on any creature as long as you beat its CMD.
If you decide to do Trip, though, dump Str and get Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall. According to the FAQ, if you're using a finessable weapon to make the Trip attempt (unarmed strikes are finessable), then you may use your Dex instead of your Str for that check with Weapon Finesse, which means you don't need the Agile Maneuvers feat.
Meanwhile, Fury's Fall adds your Dex to your CMB for Trip checks. So you can dump Str, and instead get Dex to your CMB for Trip twice, in addition to it applying to your AC, initiative, Reflex saves, attack rolls, and skill checks.
As for grapple, you really should just go straight Tetori monk and not even bother with oracle. Even oracle of battle doesn't give you as much for grappling as Tetori monk does.
Actually I don't think grapple does have a size limit I know trip does.
Actually I don't think grapple does have a size limit I know trip does.
Ah, you are correct. That's an old 3.5 rule in the back of my mind. Funny trying to picture a halfling pinning a colossal Great Wyrm now.
I think its do to grapple now being more of having a grip on them instead of bing all up in their square.
A halfling grappling a dragon just happens to have him by the dragon version of the pinky and it really bothers the dragon when he twist it around.
I think its do to grapple now being more of having a grip on them instead of bing all up in their square.
A halfling grappling a dragon just happens to have him by the dragon version of the pinky and it really bothers the dragon when he twist it around.
Ah, I see. So he's grabbing the Oozaru's tail, as it were.
Remind me: Can you use a weapon to perform a Dirty Trick?
Well, other than the Net, I mean.
It doesn't say anything in the Dirty Trick description. The Weapon Finesse errata mentions that generally the only time you use a weapon to perform a combat maneuver is with Disarm, Sunder, or Trip, so I guess not.
You would'nt use the weapon in a meaning full weapon way. You could still for instance reflect light off the blade of you sword to blind them but your sword bonuses won't help unless your GM is feeling generous.
Other than the listed the only others i can think of are using a whip to grapple or repositon if you have the right feats.
I think its do to grapple now being more of having a grip on them instead of bing all up in their square.
A halfling grappling a dragon just happens to have him by the dragon version of the pinky and it really bothers the dragon when he twist it around.
Ah, I see. So he's grabbing the Oozaru's tail, as it were.
It doesn't say anything in the Dirty Trick description. The Weapon Finesse errata mentions that generally the only time you use a weapon to perform a combat maneuver is with Disarm, Sunder, or Trip, so I guess not.Remind me: Can you use a weapon to perform a Dirty Trick?
Well, other than the Net, I mean.
but that doesn't mean one can't perform it also with a weapon, does it?
As a standard i would say if your not using the weapon in the way your trained to fight with in in some manner no.
Now if your using your sword to cut his belt to pants him, or maybe even panic him with a awesome display of your fighting skills sure i might allow your bonues. But if your just claiming a weapons use for a higher check such as gouging his eye with a sword instead of your finger probably not.
Basicly its up to a GM.
Trip is good, and then there's trip's big cousin, Ki throw, which nicely folds the repositioning maneuver in to trip for free. I have a maneuver master monk who spends all combat biffing mooks all sorts of places, dumping them into flanks where they provoke for standing from two or three PCs.
Then there's Ki throw's big brother Improved Ki Throw, which lets you use one mook to make trip attacks on other mooks (albeit with a penalty).
Someone earlier mentioned flurrying on a guy once a dirty trick was in place, but maneuver masters lose flurry of blows. Maneuver masters aren't solo damage dealers, but they are tons of fun if you can be creative (and facing a reasonable number of foes that maneuvers work on). At the moment, my monk is enjoying the current dungeon of human warriors, zombies, and skeletons immensely.
But thank you someone for mentioning that Weapon Finesse applies to combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. That was news to me.
Dirty Trick is a beast. You get to entangle or sicken someone with no saving throw. Penalties like that can really throw a creature off their game, and with Greater Dirty Trick it can eat up just as many actions as Trip, and you won't sweat the lost AoOs because you can just flurry on him while you're Tricking him.
...Dirty Trick works on any creature as long as you beat its CMD.
Pretty much what I was thinking, plus each 5 you beat it by lengthens duration. Later on with Quick Trick you could blind two enemies at the start of one full attack action, and then use your whole full attack minus the first against one of them.
Grapple is still tempting though, since starting a turn with a grappled target - like if you grab them with a snapping turtle clutch - means a free hit on a successful maintain check, or two free hits with rapid grappler.
But thank you someone for mentioning that Weapon Finesse applies to combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. That was news to me.
You're welcome, but again, it's only for trip, disarm and sunder checks, not for the others. Still, it does save you a feat on an unarmed trip build. For everything else, you'll just need Agile Maneuvers, unfortunately.
Someone earlier mentioned flurrying on a guy once a dirty trick was in place, but maneuver masters lose flurry of blows. Maneuver masters aren't solo damage dealers, but they are tons of fun if you can be creative (and facing a reasonable number of foes that maneuvers work on).
It seems odd that unlike with flurry, when you dip in Maneuver Master you get pretty much 90% of what you would want from it in a single level, and you get to do it with armor on. "You get a free combat maneuver even if it would usually take a standard action. But only 1. Oh no."
You're welcome, but again, it's only for trip, disarm and sunder checks, not for the others. Still, it does save you a feat on an unarmed trip build. For everything else, you'll just need Agile Maneuvers, unfortunately.
But thank you someone for mentioning that Weapon Finesse applies to combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. That was news to me.
Oh well. Since my build also uses a lot of bull rush maneuvers (Improved Ki Throw), I guess I'll need to keep the Agile Maneuvers after all.
Someone earlier mentioned flurrying on a guy once a dirty trick was in place, but maneuver masters lose flurry of blows. Maneuver masters aren't solo damage dealers, but they are tons of fun if you can be creative (and facing a reasonable number of foes that maneuvers work on).It seems odd that unlike with flurry, when you dip in Maneuver Master you get pretty much 90% of what you would want from it in a single level, and you get to do it with armor on. "You get a free combat maneuver even if it would usually take a standard action. But only 1. Oh no."
If you just want one maneuver, then one level is all you need. Maneuver Masters are great if you want a wide variety of maneuvers, and to be good at all of them.
A lot of potential dipping abuse could have been avoided if instead of this whole "extra maneuver with a full attack" business, the ability had been worded that you get to make a flurry of blows, but instead of damaging punches, you make combat maneuvers. So no dipping in with a fighter and getting the free trip attack on top of sword hacks: either hack with sword, or make a bunch of trips with one extra. As it stands now, you don't even lose BAB on the free trip if you dip as a fighter: you do if you use your regular attacks for trips, but not the free one. So weird.
I vote trip. It is worth noting that the Tripping Staff feat allows you to use your quarterstaff for trip attempts. It works well with all of the other trip feats plus those that Nazard mentioned.
You can use any weapon for trip attempts, that's been erreta'd some time ago.
The only think the trip feature on weapons does now is that you can drop the weapon to prevent a counter-trip if you fail too badly.
You can use any weapon for trip attempts, that's been erreta'd some time ago.
The only think the trip feature on weapons does now is that you can drop the weapon to prevent a counter-trip if you fail too badly.
Yeah, and if you ever fail a CMB check by 10 or more, you're really doing it wrong.
Lore Warden does it good.
Lore Warden is stupidly good at being a tripper. Free Combat Expertise on top of every other bonus feat the fighter gets, and a +8 bonus to your CMB and CMD that stacks with your full BAB and your bonuses to Trip from Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Weapon Training. (Plus Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus and the enhancement bonus on your weapon).
If they expect trip weapons to ever be relevant, they should have them grant a +2 bonus on the check or something.
Yeah the character I'm building for PFS right now is a lore wardern whip "black hole" he uses trip disarm and reposition to keep the enemy busy so the others can mop them up readily.
Lore Warden does it good.Lore Warden is stupidly good at being a tripper. Free Combat Expertise on top of every other bonus feat the fighter gets, and a +8 bonus to your CMB and CMD that stacks with your full BAB and your bonuses to Trip from Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Weapon Training. (Plus Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus and the enhancement bonus on your weapon).
If they expect trip weapons to ever be relevant, they should have them grant a +2 bonus on the check or something.
But unless your weapon is a tripping weapon, you aren't getting weapon focus and those enhancement bonuses from your weapon on your trip attempts. That's how the tripping property becomes relevant.
Yeah the character I'm building for PFS right now is a lore wardern whip "black hole" he uses trip disarm and reposition to keep the enemy busy so the others can mop them up readily.
You should add Dirty Trick for the lolz. You definitely have the feats for it.
But unless your weapon is a tripping weapon, you aren't getting weapon focus and those enhancement bonuses from your weapon on your trip attempts. That's how the tripping property becomes relevant.
Incorrect. They errata'd that a while back as well.
I'd do Trip and get "Combat Reflexes" and the "Vicious Stomp" UC Feat. I'm just a beginner with Table Top RPG here but if I understand the feat Correctly, you could trip the enemy and get an AoO as they're knocked prone, but only with an Unarmed Strike. Also, because of "Combat Reflexes" you can do another AoO against the enemy if they try to get up or move while they're prone.
In case the above link is unclear, this statement by Sean Reynolds clearly states that all weapons' enhancement bonuses are applied when making trip, disarm, or sunder checks, not just trip or disarm weapons.
But unless your weapon is a tripping weapon, you aren't getting weapon focus and those enhancement bonuses from your weapon on your trip attempts. That's how the tripping property becomes relevant.Lore Warden does it good.Lore Warden is stupidly good at being a tripper. Free Combat Expertise on top of every other bonus feat the fighter gets, and a +8 bonus to your CMB and CMD that stacks with your full BAB and your bonuses to Trip from Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Weapon Training. (Plus Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus and the enhancement bonus on your weapon).
If they expect trip weapons to ever be relevant, they should have them grant a +2 bonus on the check or something.
I wonder how a witch with white hair could be made better at tripping, maybe some multiclassing with this lore warden?
I wonder how a witch with white hair could be made better at tripping, maybe some multiclassing with this lore warden?
Indeed. Natural weapons are one of the weapon groups, which means you could get Weapon Training with it, as well as the significant bonus from Maneuver Mastery (and full BAB doesn't hurt either).
Yes. The ability to drop a trip weapon if you fail your trip check was, in fact, the advantage I was referring to when I said you could use the quarterstaff to make the trip check with.
However... now that I think about it that isn't really an advantage at all. Anyone who is going to focus on tripping is going to have the Improved Trip feat which disallows the counter trip anyway. Or wait... does that just disallow the initial counter trip but not the follow up counter trip received if you fail you trip check?
Yes. The ability to drop a trip weapon if you fail your trip check was, in fact, the advantage I was referring to when I said you could use the quarterstaff to make the trip check with.
However... now that I think about it that isn't really an advantage at all. Anyone who is going to focus on tripping is going to have the Improved Trip feat which disallows the counter trip anyway. Or wait... does that just disallow the initial counter trip but not the follow up counter trip received if you fail you trip check?
Improved Trip prevents AoOs from attempting to trip, it doesn't stop you from being tripped if you fail your CMB check by 10 or more. It does give you a nice bonus that will likely prevent you from failing that badly against anything within your CR+3 though.
That said, all Tripping Staff really does is give you a monk weapon with the trip quality. Since you can trip with the quarterstaff already without Tripping Staff, is it really worth the feat slot?
All the White-Haired Witch abilities are swift actions. That's actually bad.
Prehensile Hair is better.
why is it bad?
and taking levels in some other class can still grant you the prehensile hair hex as a W-H witch
I guess enough people complained about not being able to trip with their nifty +5 daggers, so it got changed (since earlier, developers were saying what I parroted above).
Thanks for the link.
I guess enough people complained about not being able to trip with their nifty +5 daggers, so it got changed (since earlier, developers were saying what I parroted above).
Thanks for the link.
Yes, they did change it in response to that. The problem now becomes that the trip weapon feature is really quite useless.
I guess now it is more fun to trip with reach weapons?
As for grapple, you really should just go straight Tetori monk and not even bother with oracle. Even oracle of battle doesn't give you as much for grappling as Tetori monk does.
The Tetori specializes in making grappling devastating in its own right, but the idea with a single level of maneuver master is that I'd be grappling 'for free,' while I also dish out a full attack action worth of Battle Oracle. A Tetori is way better at the grappling part, but a Tetori can't use Divine Power and then combine a full attack action with a grapple. Also, a Tetori can't raise his effective level for grapple checks by 1/2.
The Tetori specializes in making grappling devastating in its own right, but the idea with a single level of maneuver master is that I'd be grappling 'for free,' while I also dish out a full attack action worth of Battle Oracle. A Tetori is way better at the grappling part, but a Tetori can't use Divine Power and then combine a full attack action with a grapple. Also, a Tetori can't raise his effective level for grapple checks by 1/2.
Fair enough, but be aware that any humanoid creature who attempts a grapple check without two hands free takes a -4 penalty to his grapple attempt. So I hope you're full attacking with that unarmed strike. Otherwise, there's not much point to those "extra levels".
Fair enough, but be aware that any humanoid creature who attempts a grapple check without two hands free takes a -4 penalty to his grapple attempt. So I hope you're full attacking with that unarmed strike. Otherwise, there's not much point to those "extra levels".
Well, I saw the assorted bonuses from Oracle as a possible way to get around that -4. Basically you get 3 things from Battle Oracle: level = bab for grapple, plus 1/2 bonus to grapple per level, plus buffing. At level 13, your bab for grappling purposes starts out the same as a tetori's, and then you get a +6 for the oracle levels - which neatly cancels out the -6 from flurry of maneuvers and grapple without both hands. Beyond that, Divine Power is another +4, so that even though you started out taking a -6 penalty, you're actually now well ahead of the Tetori's grapple. As a -6 sideshow act... that's not too shabby.
Edit: Interestingly enough, with rapid grappler I think you could clutch an attacker on their turn, then pin them and tie them up with a rope, and then take out your full attack action on them while tied up. Ouch.
Well, I saw the assorted bonuses from Oracle as a possible way to get around that -4. Basically you get 3 things from Battle Oracle: level = bab for grapple, plus 1/2 bonus to grapple per level, plus buffing. At level 13, your bab for grappling purposes starts out the same as a tetori's, and then you get a +6 for the oracle levels - which neatly cancels out the -6 from flurry of maneuvers and grapple without both hands. Beyond that, Divine Power is another +4, so that even though you started out taking a -6 penalty, you're actually now well ahead of the Tetori's grapple. As a -6 sideshow act... that's not too shabby.
Depends on what level you're starting at, then. If you're starting at level 3, with one level of Maneuver Master and two levels of Oracle, you're going to be awful at grappling. (effective BAB of +2, -2 for grapple flurry, -4 for only using one hand).
If you're starting at a high enough level where you can start to ignore it, like 13, then yes, it's a strong option.
Its very true, it would totally suck for the first couple levels, and that's one reason I'm on the fence about it. Level 9 is kind of the magic number since once I get divine power I'm at +1 vs tetori; before that I have to be consoled with the fact that the checks go from a lot to a little weaker, but they're free.
That said, all Tripping Staff really does is give you a monk weapon with the trip quality. Since you can trip with the quarterstaff already without Tripping Staff, is it really worth the feat slot?
Yes. Because it opens up Tripping Twirl.
I have a simple plan for a martial-arts style Oracle:
Monk Maneuver Master + Battle Oracle Maneuver Mastery + racial favored class oracle bonus = one ridiculously buffed combat maneuver, and one free combat maneuver per full attack action.The problem is that I can't decide which maneuver. I'm leaning towards Grapple or dirty trick, but of course trip is also an option. With Maneuver Mastery you get the improved/greater feats free, and Maneuver Master monk gives you another improved maneuver feat without prereqs, but only one maneuver is going to be getting +9 from oracle by level 13...
Reposition.
Not everything can be tripped.