BBT: I was just saying that while a weapon is being used for two-weapon fighting it cannot be used for pushing assault. I never said the weapon itself couldn't be used. It depends on how it is being used.
- Gauss
Edit: It looks like we are saying the same thing just in slightly different ways. No worries.
So here's a slightly of topic question: in any of these scenarios do you threaten 5' and 10' at the same time? Im thinking something like Whirlwind Attack ...
Daylinarr: Yes, in several scenarios you can use a whirlwind attack on both 5 and 10'. Note: the wording on whirlwind attack is not 'threaten' it is 'reach'. A significant difference.
Example 1: Lunge +Whirlwind attack = all squares out to 10feet (including 5feet).
Example 2: A Dragoon threatens both 5 and 10 feet with a lance. Add in lunge and you get 5, 10, and 15feet (scary huh?)
Example 3: A Polearm Master can use an immediate action to change the grip on his weapon. Whirlwind 5', then immediate grip to complete the whirlwind at 10' and 15' with lunge. Note: some people may feel that since your reach was not 10' when you started the whirlwind then you cannot use whirlwind at that distance.
- Gauss
BBT is correct. Weapon size changes do not change the reach of a weapon.
What? Reach weapons double the creature's reach.
Oh, wait. Are you saying they double the creature's reach for who wields it rather than who it was made for? If so that is kinda silly to think of as a huge sized whip would definitely be longer than a medium sized whip, right?
Medium person with a Small whip = reach out to 15feet
Medium person with a Medium whip = reach out to 15feet.
Large person with a medium whip = reach out to 20feet.
Large person with a large whip = reach out to 20feet.
Yes, a weapon's reach does not change regardless of the size of the weapon. It does change based on the size of the weilder. It is weird but thems the rules.
A tiny creature with a tiny whip has a 10foot reach. (15-5 = 10).
Good luck finding that in the rules though.
- Gauss
Mmm... I dunno, I think this may be another case where the rules may be (perhaps purposefully?) vague enough to allow for other interpretations. Personally, going with the interpretation that makes the least sense out of context and has no real bearing with game balance seems less logical. Not that RPGs are big on logic.
Still, I don't think anyone would argue that a whip designed for a Tiny creature is shorter than a whip designed for a Huge creature any more than they would when comparing a Medium whip to a Huge whip.
Lune: the rules for reach weapons are not modified based on the size of the weapon. There is nothing in the rules that state that differently sized weapons have the reach changed.
However, there are rules regarding changing the reach of reach weapons based on the reach of the user.
- Gauss
Edit: My previous example was incorrect. The large creature with reach would have a 30foot reach with a whip due to the following line:
Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
So: A whip triples the reach of a medium creature. Since a large (tall) creature has a reach of 10 that means a large (tall) creature will have a reach of 30feet when using a whip.
The real problem is what does a creature with a reach of 0 have when using a whip. It should be greater than 0 but 0*15 = 0. I would rule it as reach 10 still.
So you don't think a Huge whip is longer than a Medium whip?
I do not subscribe to that belief from a fluff standpoint thus I can't see it being a driving force to justify that as a RAW ruling. IMO the RAW is intentionally vague to allow for different interpretations. I'm not saying anyone else' interpretation is wrong per se. However, I am saying that it makes sense that larger size category weapons are larger than their smaller counterparts. Thus larger sized category reach weapons have larger reaches.
This doesn't cause any real balance issues that I can think of. Or at least not more than exist with the ruling going the other way. And it just plain makes more sense to me.
The rule is clear. Reach usually doubles the wielder's natural reach (although not explicitly stated it is triple for the whip). I stated I was incorrect in my previous example. There is no ambiguity unless you go down to a size with a reach of 0. At that point you wind up with reach weapons with no reach. (Double of zero is still zero.)
A medium Whip in a large creature's hands has the same exact reach as a large whip in a large creature's hands. The reach for both weapons is triple the natural reach.
For a less ambiguous option:
Medium Longspear on a Large creature has a reach of 15-20'.
Long longspear on a Large creature has a reach of 15-20'.
For the last example (Longspear) there is utterly no ambiguity in the rules on this. Reach weapon doubles natural reach.
- Gauss
The rule is NOT clear. It even uses ambiguous words like "Most", "usually" and "typical" which implies exceptions do exist. Also, as you pointed out it leaves open for debate how to adjudicate such things as creatures with 0ft reach. There are no printed rules for specifically how creatures using inappropriately sized reach weapons work at all.
It is simply left to opinion about what cases the "usually" in the RAW applies to. While you may think it doesn't apply to reach 0 situations, others likely do (although I see your point on this). The same thing is true for whether inappropriately sized weapons give proportionally more reach or if it falls under the "usually" clause.
Gauss, I'm not trying to be a dick here but I have asked you the same question 4 times now and you have not answered it. Do you think that a Huge sized whip is longer than a Medium sized whip?
I have answered the question several times. I thought I was clear. Medium Whip, Large Whip, Huge Whip, all have the same reach in the hands of a single creature. Creature is Large..the reach does not change.
However, you change the reach of the creature and the whip reach changes.
You want an answer that is 'huge is longer'. That is simply not true. It depends on the reach of the user. Thus, I keep answering it that way.
Here one more time: The reach of a reach weapon is dependant upon the user.
- Gauss
BBT: We really need to stop talking about whips. Whips are not a standard reach weapon. Whips need to be FAQ'd because they are not 'double' reach. Creatures with a reach of 0 need to be FAQ'd because a reach of zero times a reach weapon = a reach of zero.
Based on the fact that a whip is really a reach*3 reach weapon rather than a reach*2 reach weapon then it is reasonable to assume that for an increase in reach it should triple the reach if using a whip.
Tiny+whip = 0*3=0feet??
Small+whip = 5*3=15feet
Medium+whip = 5*3=15feet
Long(tall)+whip = 10*3=30feet??
Huge(tall)+whip = 15*3=45feet??
All calculations for whip are subject to interpretation due to the fact that whips are NOT a standard reach. Now, if we use a standard 10foot reach weapon we get the following maximum reach:
Tiny+longspear = 0*2=0feet??
Small+Longspear = 5*2=10feet
Medium+Longspear = 5*2=10feet
Long(tall)+longspear = 10*2=20feet (15-20feet)
Huge(tall+longspear = 15*2=30feet (20-30feet)
Now: for those not understanding the incorrectly sized part we have the following:
Long(tall+small longspear = 10*2 = 20feet (15-20feet)
Long(tall)+medium longspear = 10*2 = 20feet (15-20feet)
Long(tall)+large longspear = 10*2 = 20feet (15-20feet)
Yes, this could be considered rediculous, but until someone can find a rule that says something like: 'undersized reach weapons penalize the reach by 5' per step' then what I posted regarding the longspear is RAW. (The Whip portion is not clear RAW...it is calculation based.)
Yes, there are certainly two major problems. That of the whip (which is effectively x3 of reach) and that of tiny creatures holding a reach weapon.
- Gauss
You had not answered the question, Gauss, and I think you know that. I didn't ask if it increased reach. I specifically asked if you thought it was longer. You answered a question that I did not ask.
Do you care to answer the question now? Or are you still content to continue evading the question?
BBT also has a good point. That doesn't really make logical sense either.
I dont know (or care) if it is longer. It is not part of the rules and is not stated. Any opinion on length is just that, an opinion.
Which point was BBT making? I saw him ask a question, not make a point in his last post.
Edit: just for the record, I thought I was answering your question. I did not know I was failing to do so.
- Gauss
I see, so you are choosing to continue evading the question rather than answering it and insisting that the answer doesn't matter. I think that because the answer matters you do not want to answer it.
Just to clarify (although I'm not sure how it was ever unclear) I will ask the question again:
Is a Huge sized whip longer than a Medium sized whip?
It is a yes or no question. It couldn't be more simple.
I am not trying to be combative and I'm not upset. I am, however, a bit frustrated after having to ask the same question what... 6 times now? And for the response to be that you thought you had answered it.
My answer to your question Lune would be no. It says its 15ft reach not a doubling or tripling of natural reach so a large or even colossol whip by RAW is 15ft.
Its the sizing issue the game has much like with spells and how a fireball is always 20ft doesnt matter if thats the size of your hand as a colossol creature or the size of your village if your diminutive.
Lune: I have answered it. I answered it multiple times.
Once again: The whip has no length without factoring in the reach of the user. As I have stated SEVERAL times. Only the natural reach is relevant.
I am not evading the question. I am answering it. Since the answer is not a 'yes or no' answer like you seem to think it is I cannot answer it to your satisfaction. I am sorry.
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
No mention of length. Thus the short answer is: No mention of length.
Since there is no mention of length the only other answer can be 'what is the size of the creature using it?'. Then you have reach (length if you want to call it that).
In the hands of a Large creature a Medium Whip and a Huge whip are the same reach. Feel free to substitute the word length for reach.
Look, you are asking a question for which I cannot answer yes or no. I am sorry that frustrates you. There is no yes or no answer here. I have tried over and over to answer it though.
- Gauss
Talonhawke: The rules on reach weapons clearly state that natural reach increases reach weapons. Whips are reach weapons. Thus, the whip increases the natural reach of the user by double if not triple (depending on interpretation).
Only the double or triple is subject to interpretation, not the increase.
- Gauss
One could also argue that this is a case of specific trumps general.
The reach quality says it doubles natural reach. General
The whip says its 15ft reach specific.
Talonhawke: you may have a point there. One more thing to FAQ perhaps. Although, that will make Huge(tall) creatures using whips pointless. I would probably follow the idea that whips follow all the other rules regarding reach.
One thing to note: Specific trumps general when there is a specific exception made. No statement is made that that aspect of reach (doubling) is modified.
- Gauss
Edit: added stuff
Can we just get a book called Ultimate Weapon Errata. With nothing but full page explanations of how all the odd ball weapons work.
Holy crap! You answered it.
No, you had not answered the question earlier. You answered a question that I did not ask: what is the reach of a Huge whip. I did not ask that question. I asked about the length of it.
So now that you have answered the question (thanx again, frustration over) I guess it is safe to assume that you believe that a Gargantuan whip is the same length as a Diminutive whip? I mean you DID say that I can feel free to substitute length for reach right? So it is safe to assume that in the dimension of length that they are all the same?
...and this seems logical to you?
It is interesting that an answer that was basically the same as all the others answered it for you but...ok. :)
External logic does not enter into it. This is a game. If I tried to apply external logic to this game my brain would explode. Internal logic sure, it makes sense by the rules.
Note: external logic means external to the game while internal logic means internal to the game.
As for the statement of 'substitute length for reach' I was simply trying to help you. There is no rule stating that. It is completely outside of the rules. It is safe to assume nothing that is not in the rules.
Note: My own personal games I assume all sorts of things. But those things are only applicable in my games. When I post on the board I leave behind what I do in my games and I answer things as the book is written. If I have a house rule or suggest a house rule I try to be clear that it would be outside the rules.
How that applies here is that I cannot simply give you answers that are outside of the scope of the rules. That is perhaps why you got frustrated. You asked what I thought without indicating if you wanted my personal opinion or my rules opinion. As a result I defaulted to my rules opinion.
- Gauss
Your personal opinion and your opinion about the rules do not have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps I am in the minority here but I think it creates problems when people leave their rules opinions completely devoid of logic.
The reason I was frustrated, Gauss, is that I can tell that you are a smart person from the posts I have seen from you before. But when I ask you a straight forward question that requires logic that you were unable/unwilling to answer the question because you didn't want to mix logic with rules opinion.
Thats a problem. And I know you agree here. If you didn't then you wouldn't have a problem with the 0 reach whip on a Tiny creature. It rubs you the wrong way because it doesn't make logical sense despite what the rules say. But again, that is a perfect example of where logic does not have to be mutually exclusive with RAW. Remember earlier when I said:
The rule is NOT clear. It even uses ambiguous words like "Most", "usually" and "typical" which implies exceptions do exist. Also, as you pointed out it leaves open for debate how to adjudicate such things as creatures with 0ft reach. There are no printed rules for specifically how creatures using inappropriately sized reach weapons work at all.
That wasn't meant to just defend my point of view on a Huge sized whip. This is the same logic that you used to defend your position on a Tiny sized whip having more than 0 reach.
The problem here is that you can not say that it is ok to use logic to defend your point of view but it isn't ok for someone else to use that same logic to defend their point of view. And that is what you are doing here.
Lune: I use logic for the purpose at hand. The purpose at hand for me was not the same as the purpose at hand for you. Thus, we had a problem in communication.
I do use (mix to use your word) logic with rules. But for me the logic is to analyze the rules for internal consistency rather than to analyze the rules for external consistency.
I never said you were not ok to use logic. You kept bringing up logic not I. Only in my last post did I mention logic (external to the game logic vs internal to the game logic) and that was due in part because you kept mentioning logic.
Ultimately, I feel that you wanted an opinion from me that was outside of the rules. I was only prepared to offer an internal analysis.
- Gauss
P.S. Thanks for the compliment regarding my intelligence. :)
I did want an opinion from you that was outside of the rules. I asked if it seemed logical to you that a Gargantuan whip was the same length as a Diminutive whip. I did not specify whether your answer had to be "internal" or "external" in it's consistency but there is no reason that it can not be both.
It is within RAW to believe that the length (thus the reach provided by) a whip changes as a creature increases in size. That analysis makes sense both logically and within the rules. It is both consistent internally and externally. And it uses the same logic that you used to explain why a Tiny sized whip would still grant reach.
As far as I'm concerned its all groovy. Unless I'm missing something?
Lune:
You are missing something. RAW does not list length of a whip. The length is not listed as changing based on the size of the creature. The only thing provided is the reach, not the length.
At its core, a reach weapon is just a multiplier of natural reach. Reach weapons are not additive. You do not have 8feet+15feet = 23feet round down. You have 2*15feet = 30feet.
A Small reach weapon in the hands of a large monster has the same exact reach as a Large reach weapon in the hands of a large monster.
Does it make external sense? Hell no.
Does it make internal sense? yes.
Do the two conflict? Yup.
This does not make external sense. But it makes internal sense. Like so many D&D/PF rules the two are in conflict.
Since you did not specify external or internal logic I only provided internal logic.
- Gauss
Fine. Then Tiny sized whips do not provide reach.
Gauss, I already stated this before but you are basing your entire reasoning on the following sentence:
Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.
Those terms are not exclusitory statements. They are vague. They leave room for making a judgement call. Likely from a DM who is going to use logic. Hopefully both internal and external.
Your answer does not meet all of these. Mine does. I'm not saying you are wrong, but you have already admitted to yourself that it does not meet external logic. Why not find a way within RAW to make it meet both external and internal sense? Isn't that what you are doing with Tiny sized whips?
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You had not answered the question, Gauss, and I think you know that. I didn't ask if it increased reach. I specifically asked if you thought it was longer. You answered a question that I did not ask.
Do you care to answer the question now? Or are you still content to continue evading the question?
BBT also has a good point. That doesn't really make logical sense either.
The problem is that, as you say, the rules are vague about the size of the reach weapon.
A sarissa (the oplite spear) was long 14-18' but it add only 5' to a character reach. A pike was long from 10 to 25 feet but it still add only 5' to a character reach, regardless of its actual length.So, in our game, reach is not a function of a weapon size and length, but a function of the character size.
Beside that there isn't any rule that say that a large whip will be longer than a normal whip. A bullwhip, according to wikipedia, handle and all, can range from 3' 8" in length to 21'.
Double that for being large: you get from 7' 4" (a bit more than 1/3 of the longest normal sized bullwhip) to 42".
So a large whip can be way shorter than a medium whip. For ease of use probably a character using a large whip would use a shorter heavier version, not a long one that he will have more problem controlling and you will see why the rules don't allow him to increase his reach on the basis of teh weapon size but instead they refer his size.
Diego: So what about a whip for a Tiny size creature? How long do you figure that is? How much reach do you figure it gives?
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I was playing around with a spring attacking ranger/Shadowdancer build recently, when an idea came to me.
Generally with a reach weapon, once an opponent moves adjacent to you, you take a 5ft step back, and full attack.
Pushing assault feat allows you to sacrifice your extra power attack damage to push an opponent back 5ft.
So, say an opponent manages to get adjacent to you. You use you spiked gauntlet (possibly in conjunction with furious focus) to power attack, and sacrifice the extra damage, pushing you opponent back 5ft... Which puts them in range of your reach weapon. You finish the full attack sequence with said reach weapon (instead of the gauntlet). After your full attack, you take your free 5ft step back.
Your opponent is now 15 ft away from you, and can no longer merely make a 5 ft step, then full attack while adjacent to you. They must take a move action instead, guaranteeing only a single attack against you, as opposed to a full attack action. Rinse and repeat, you get a full attack action, your opponent makes a move action, then attack action.Do I have this right? I never really see builds using this, but it seems to be quite good. Am I missing something?
Thanks!
i dipped into maneuver master monk for a 1 shot. and i used bull rush as part of a full attack at a -2. it worked really well for getting bad guys off you.
its better just to take pindown and stand still if you are a fighter though.
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Diego: So what about a whip for a Tiny size creature? How long do you figure that is? How much reach do you figure it gives?
Something like 1/4 of a regular bullwhip. So from 1' to 5'. That would give him a 5' reach only if he was using a 3'- 5' tiny bullwhip, the equivalent of a normal whip with a length of 12'-20'.
So I would give a tiny creature 5' of reach if he was using a bullwhip but he would be unable to attack in his own square.
Diego: Do you believe your ruling is per RAW or a house rule? Why?
There is a thing about the whip again, a Balor Lord has 20ft reach with his whip. That puts the whole triple range out right. It's base reach is 10ft the whip reach is 20ft, so how does that work?
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Diego: Do you believe your ruling is per RAW or a house rule? Why?
Houserule. The rules are meant for small and medium characters, when you start playing outside that norm there are holes in the rules. Non relevant holes if they involve NPC monster, more relevant if they affect player characters or persistent NPC.
Diego: Thats about where I'm at with it too. I would probably rule the same that Gauss did with the Tiny sized whip. For the same reason I would rule differently for larger sized creatures as well. I guess the only difference is that I don't believe it is so much a house rule because the RAW is vague enough to allow for different interpretations.
Quarotas: Yeah, its not even consistent within the rules presented it seems. It doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
Asked JJ and here is his response:
Gauss wrote:
James:Two questions about reach (I know you answered Lunes questions but mine, while related are different or restated for clarification purposes):
CRB p141 wrote:
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Please note the bolded section for the following questions.1) A tiny or smaller creature has a reach of zero. Double of zero = zero.
1A) What is the reach of a tiny or smaller creature with a longspear? 1B) If greater than zero can the tiny or smaller creature attack in his own square or adjacent squares?2) A Small or Medium creature using a Whip has a reach of 15'. This is not 'double natural reach' but is in fact triple the natural reach.
2A) What is the reach of a Large creature with a natural reach of 10 when using a whip? (20feet is double, 30feet is triple)
2B) What is the reach of a Huge creature with a natural reach of 15 when using a whip? (30feet is double, 45feet is triple)
2C) What is the reach of a Tiny or smaller creature with a natural reach of 0 when using a whip? (0feet is double, 0 feet is triple, see question 1)Thanks for your time as always and welcome back!
- Gauss
First off... all of these situations are strange corner cases that the rules don't specifically address, really, but here's how I'd answer all of them:
1) Giving a tiny or smaller creature a reach weapon allows it to attack adjacent foes as if it were a Small or Medium creature.
2) Small is a weird size category that, for the purposes of reach weapons, works identically to Medium because that makes it easier and more balanced for Small PC races. And whips are unusual weapons in that they grant a much larger reach than normal.
2A) 30 feet.
2B) 45 feet.
2C) 10 feet.
I have also asked him for clarification on if a reach 0 creature can attack with a reach weapon (such as longspear) in its own square. No answer yet.
- Gauss
Hm. That is weird. He ruled that a Large sized creature wielding a whip would have a reach of 30 ft. I mean, I agree with that as it makes logical and mechanical sense to me. However, as posted earlier, the Balor stat block disagrees with that.
He also posted this:
3 simple questions:
1. What reach does a Tiny sized creature wielding a Tiny sized whip have and what is his "dead zone"?
2. What reach does a Huge sized creature wielding a Huge sized whip have and what is his "dead zone"?
3. What reach does a Medium sized creature wielding a Huge sized whip have and what is his "dead zone"?
Hopefully this gets simple answers as the rules seem vague (perhaps intentionally?).
Weapon sizes are a bit weird.
A weapon's size does not impact reach. Reach merely extends your normal reach, regardless of the size of the weapon. Which is weird and confusing, and a good reason to not go too far down the rabbit hole of using strangely sized weapons in the first place.
And he has now answered your question:
Again, reach weapons on unusually sized creatures is weird. In this case, I would say no, though, a Tiny creature with a longspear cannot attack creatures in the square in which the Tiny creature is located.James:
I asked earlier but I think you missed it. :)
Going back to the question I asked earlier about a tiny creature with a longspear is the tiny creature able to attack in his own square? My guess is 'no'.
Thanks again,
- Gauss
So I think that answered all our questions, right? Whips triple reach, not double it. This counts for larger creatures as well (despite the Balor entry). Tiny creatures getting reach allows them to attack adjacent foes without provoking. Inappropriately sized weapons do not change the amount of reach that is given.
I had only asked for clarity on these questions by posting this:
James, you recently answered a question for Gauss (which was restating my earlier question) regarding reach weapons for smaller or larger creatures. In your answer you had said that for a Large creature using a whip that it would typically have a reach of 30 ft. First of all, I wanted to say that I agree that your answer makes sense (both thematically and mechanically) and thank you for answering that question.
This answer does raise the following question though: We searched for creatures of a size other than Small or Medium using the whip and only found the Balor. It's posted reach with the whip is only 20 ft. rather than your suggested 30 ft. While I agree with your ruling do you have any explanation for the Balor's limited reach?
Also, thank you for answering my earlier question regarding using inappropriately sized reach weapons. The question was specifically in regards to something like a Titan Mauler (who is specifically meant to use inappropriately sized weapons) using a Large sized whip. So from your answer does that mean that a Large sized whip would only grant the Titan Mauler the same reach as a Medium sized whip would grant?