I know, KNOW this thread is out there but my search skills are obviously lacking. Please help me help a player in my game make these spells useful.
Specifically the PC enjoys hurling acid splash. He already has Point Blank Shot and his build is set as an Abjurationist, so that works against him. What else can he do to either increase damage or utility of this and other 0 levelers?
Feats that add damage to acid spells. Rime spell for ray of frost, for example. You'll also need the trait that lowers the metamagic cost by one for it to really be effective.
Zero level spells are useful, but not powerful.
When you use a flask of acid as a focus, you do +1 damage with your Acid Splash. For a one-time expense of 10gp, that's a great deal. Liquid Ice (40gp) does the same for the Ray of Frost cantrip.
He is better off using a Light Crossbow for damage.
There are several useful Cantrips however.
Detect Magic: Detects all spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message: Whisper conversation at distance.
Arcane Mark: Inscribes a personal rune on an object or creature (visible or invisible).
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
All of these are great spells that are just as handy at 20th level as they are at 1st level.
The damage spells are really not. The effort required to make a 0 level cantrip worth using would cut severly into his ability to do other things well. Better off using the Crossbow and using his 4 Cantrip slots on actually useful Cantrips. At least thats my take.
Use Flasks of Acid as a material component and as a focus.
Acid Splash (F): The spell deals +1 point of damage.
Acid Splash (M): The spell lasts 1 round longer than normal.
What sourcebook is this from?
Acid Flask is CRB, Liquid Ice is APG.
I believe the Player's Campanion: Adventurer's Armoury
1: Allow universalist mages to use a metamagic feat at -1 spell level and splash will rock.
2: Spark: this spell lights any one flammable object. Lighting a torch or Molotov cocktail just became a move equivalent. Some things need to be brought back.
Zero level spells aren't intended to be especially effective in combat. Many sorcerers and wizards use "ray of frost" or "acid splash" as a means to remain "wizardly" when in combat but not using their "real spells". It just feels more wizardly to fire arcane blasts of energy than to crank up a crossbow, even though the crossbow might actually do more damage.
Outside of combat zero level spells are among the best spells in the game, both from a usability perspective and from a role playing perspective. Oh the things I've done with "prestidigitate" and "mage hand..." Not to mention "dancing lights"
Using acid as a focus is a nice way to boost the damage to get it closer to a crossbow bolt and remain all wizardly.
I hope you avoid the temptation to pursue some of the more dubious combinations of traits, feats and house rules to get some sort of uber zero level combat spell. First you don't need it, second, it's just going to piss off your martial character players even more.
Spark can light the part rogue's molitov cocktail. Also, the ranger's non magic flame arrow.
I like using spark to set off fireworks or smokesticks as a diversion. Create watercan be the source of hours of fun, especially for kids on hot days. Drench is even better if your GM allows it. Mending is one of the few "must have" spells in the game. Guidance is one of the most under-appreciated spells in the game.
In a well-run campaign with creative players and cooperative GMs, zero level spells are among the best ways to make campaigns truly memorable.
If it's YOUR game (i.e. you are the GM) then bump the damage from d3 to d6 or d8. It's not much different from having a crossbow other than you don't have to have ammo. It lets the wizard still contribute after all other spells are burned but doesn't affect game balance in a huge way.
Having access to an unlimited number of castings of a somewhat useful spell was the one benefit of 4e that I took away.
Trying to get spell casters to continue after a Nova in Pathfinder is nearly impossible.
Bltz: what about, instead of extra damage, extra rays? like a smaller magic missile?
Having access to an unlimited number of castings of a somewhat useful spell was the one benefit of 4e that I took away.
Trying to get spell casters to continue after a Nova in Pathfinder is nearly impossible.
The danger in unlimited castings of a damaging spell that isn't low damage is that it removes some of need for controlling spell use. If every spellcaster can just dump all of their spells without much worry because they have a "powerful" cantrip that they can use, what's the point?
Some of them are already TOO useful to be something that a spellcaster can spam continually.
this makes no sense. They already CAN "spam continually"
0 level spells can be cast at will....to Mark... if you start adding extra rays then you've just made Magic missile superfluous. Keep it minimal (on par with a weapon of equal power) and it doesn't break it.
to Aeryn. I'm not advocating a "powerful" cantrip. just one that has some function. It wouldn't scale with level. Just a base dX damage. It lets a spellcaster "get by" without having to turtle after every encounter.
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Let the adept have these advantages, because they never get higher level spells. :)
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wow you guys must run super low power campaigns cause d3 damage has NEVER been overpowered in any game I've ever played.
If, some day many BAB from now, said wizard gets an iterative attack; can I give him a new ray then? It's SLIGHTLY more powerful than a mundane thrown weapon at that point (even if he took EVERY other level in fighter he'd have 7 character levels before he'd get this) but since no major increase in damage its less powerful than virtually ANY mundane weapon he would have access to at that point.
Metamagic will steal slots. Feats means he builds his entire character around weak spells. Yes he can spam them at will; he can spam a single 2-4 pt hit every round; with enough ammo so could anyone.
The whole reason this came up was because in our first session his crossbow string broke. Mending isn't very quick to cast so he switched to Acid Splash and realized he really wasn't doing much. So now he's looking at his spells to, as AD pointed out, find a WIZARDLY backup to the crossbow.
Make them do a d4 (I just dislike d3's) and let them add primary casting stat to the damage. So wizard with 18 int does d4+4. Puts it in the same category as weapons.
How about creating a new cantrip, or is that a silly notion? People are always trying to come up with new higher level spells, so why not lower ones?
My crew normally overused prestidigitation to 'create' effects that weren't covered by others (tye-dying peoples hair and the like). I think they were using it wrong, but no harm no foul.
My crew normally overused prestidigitation to 'create' effects that weren't covered by others (tye-dying peoples hair and the like). I think they were using it wrong, but no harm no foul.
Actually that's verbatim how Presti works: it can do minor effects that are not already performed by another spell.
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
Source. Bold emphasis mine.
So creating new cantrips limits more and more what Presti can do, since it explicitly says it can't do what any other spell can, or at best can only do it at a much reduced rate (compare the slow 1-pound movement to Mage Hand's 5-pound limit and no mention of slow movement).
Make them do a d4 (I just dislike d3's) and let them add primary casting stat to the damage. So wizard with 18 int does d4+4. Puts it in the same category as weapons.
So you're saying that 1d4+4 on a ranged touch attack with infinite ammo is the same as 1d8 (crossbow) against full AC with finite ammo and requiring two hands to operate a crossbow?
Interesting.
I would, but I also never bother keeping track of ammo except bullets, and even then only in low-guns timelines; in my more steam-age campaign guns are common enough that bullets and arrows aren't too different in price and thus get the same treatment. Unless the party has just been robbed from head to toe, I always presume "you stock up on enough ammo to get you by any time you pass through a town with a shop". Less minutiae to keep up with.
wow you guys must run super low power campaigns cause d3 damage has NEVER been overpowered in any game I've ever played.
Nobody said this. In fact nobody said anything even CLOSE to this. The closest thing to this was the comment that unlimited casting of POWERFUL damage spells removes the need for spellcasters to be judicious in choosing and casting spells. The other point which you may be conflating with that is that it was stated that SOME of the existing zero level spells are too useful already to be used unlimited numbers of times per day. Note that the word was useful not "damaging" or "powerful." I suspect that the "too useful" spells being discussed here aren't combat spells but are spells like "detect magic" or "prestidigitation" or perhaps even "mage hand."
I would, but I also never bother keeping track of ammo except bullets, and even then only in low-guns timelines; in my more steam-age campaign guns are common enough that bullets and arrows aren't too different in price and thus get the same treatment. Unless the party has just been robbed from head to toe, I always presume "you stock up on enough ammo to get you by any time you pass through a town with a shop". Less minutiae to keep up with.
There are circumstances where I will have the party track ammo and even food, but those are rare and are mostly confined to "you are trapped in an underground cavern" sorts of scenarios. Otherwise it's just bookkeeping.
I don't really have a problem with giving a spellcaster the ability to do the same sort of damage they could do with a crossbow through some unlimited spell. That's just thematic to me, and doesn't affect game balance.
However, having said that, I don't think it's necessary or even beneficial to the game itself. After all, they can use the crossbow too. It really becomes a matter of taste then. Some people like the idea that magic is rare and powerful and therefore is used very judiciously by spellcasters. Other people like the idea that magic infuses certain types of characters and those characters do as much as they possibly can with magic because that's just what they do.
I fall sort of in between. If it were my game I'd probably end up with the idea that spontaneous casters could magically duplicate the damage they could do with a crossbow, but prepared spellcasters could not. In other words I'd probably give sorcerers a zero level spell that does d8 damage, perhaps even d8+attribute modifier, but I wouldn't give the same zero level spell to wizards.
Just due to pure thematics. Plus I like the idea of sorcerers sneering at wizards as the wizard pulls out a crossbow.
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Make them do a d4 (I just dislike d3's) and let them add primary casting stat to the damage. So wizard with 18 int does d4+4. Puts it in the same category as weapons.So you're saying that 1d4+4 on a ranged touch attack with infinite ammo is the same as 1d8 (crossbow) against full AC with finite ammo and requiring two hands to operate a crossbow?
Interesting.
No I am saying a wizard should be on par with his at-will attacks, so a d4+4 vs touch AC is about the same as a ranger with a bow point blank shot and precise shot. I haven't had my players count ammo, encumbrance, or silver pieces in over a decade. I don't care how much a room or meal costs and ammo counting is not fun.
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No I am saying a wizard should be on par [with a ranger] with his at-will attacks
So... do you think that a ranger should then be on par with the wizard's at-will spellcasting?
See, I sort of think since the wizard dedicated his life to studying magic, he should be better at magic, and since the ranger dedicated his life to studying combat, he should be better at combat.
What you posted seems to be in the same neighborhood of the quest for "balance" that gave us 4e.
So Prestidigitation can let a MU pull an arrow or bolt out of his or her hat because there is no other zero level spell that does that.
So Prestidigitation can let a MU pull an arrow or bolt out of his or her hat because there is no other zero level spell that does that.
Oh yes. It'll be a brittle arrow though, quite useless for shooting people with. But Prestidigitation can make that arrow taste like a banana!
0-level damage spells are really useful if you have several d6 of sneak attack to go with them... not so much, otherwise. But the 0-level utilitarian effects are great, regardless.
The whole reason this came up was because in our first session his crossbow string broke. Mending isn't very quick to cast so he switched to Acid Splash and realized he really wasn't doing much. So now he's looking at his spells to, as AD pointed out, find a WIZARDLY backup to the crossbow.
In my campains I allow a 3.5 spell from the Spell Compendium. Its called Launch Bolt. It is a 0 level spell it has a costly material component equal to the cost of a crossbow bolt. You make a ranged attack roll with the casting of the spell and if you hit you deal light crossbow damage.
I love it especially now that 0 level spells are reusable. Its not overpowered especially with the material component cost, it lets you do something useful but still keeping the wizardly feel.
My crew normally overused prestidigitation to 'create' effects that weren't covered by others (tye-dying peoples hair and the like). I think they were using it wrong, but no harm no foul.Actually that's verbatim how Presti works: it can do minor effects that are not already performed by another spell.
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.Source. Bold emphasis mine.
So creating new cantrips limits more and more what Presti can do, since it explicitly says it can't do what any other spell can, or at best can only do it at a much reduced rate (compare the slow 1-pound movement to Mage Hand's 5-pound limit and no mention of slow movement).
I don't think that sentence means that (and it certainly doesn't have to mean that). It says that you cannot do anything another spell can, not that you can do anything no other spell can. For example, you wouldn't be able to create a material that glows like a torch with it, even if it's small and looks crude - because that's what Light does. It cannot create drinkable water - because that's what create water does. It cannot create flame - because that's what spark and produce flame does. You cannot use the telekinetic effect to copy an open/close and so on.
I've always taken it as that sentence limits the effects of the spell, not opens up anything not explicitly done by another spell.
Why not simply a cantrip:
ELEMENTAL RAY
School evocation [see text]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance yes
A ray of elemental energy projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to one target. The ray deals 1d4 points of energy damage plus your spellcasting ability modifier. When you cast this spell, select the type of energy the spell is supposed to inflict: cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic. The spell possesses a spell descriptor equal to the inflicted type of energy. Elemental ray does not produce any lasting or ongoing effect.
That will outshine most low-level characters that aren't specifically built for damage. With a cantrip.
If you set it to 1d4 plus (less of spellcasting modifier and level) I think it's far better balanced.
Yeah. Full spellcasting ability modifier might be too much.
But it's still a ranged touch attack. (not really a strong side of sorc/wiz, right?)
Maybe simply 1d4+1 ?
I think 1d4+1 might be a good damage value. Still, it does lower the usefulness of certain 1st level spells (shocking grasp, burning hands, magic missile) at low levels, and it severely lowers the value of certain school/bloodline abilities.
I rechecked shocking grasp (1-5d6, +3 attack if metal armor) and burning hands (1d4 inside 15ft. cone - Anyone else think it should be 1d6 though). I don't think it will put those under.
I don't know about the bloodlines... and I don't care. :P
Wow. I had no idea anyone else felt this strongly about 0 level spells. Looks like there's a lot of houseruling I could do. I don't know if I'm ready to go that route yet.
Here's my reservations:
1. the player in question has already said he's bad at optimization but has consciously chosen not to seek out ways to improve, so it's not a big deal to him.
2. his other spells are focused on utility; the first wand he intends to make will be a wand of Unseen Servant.
3. finally this player has stated his intent to go loremaster but use his feats to go the Magic Item Creation route, not metamagic, plus he doesn't want to dual into another class.
I appreciate the discussion and I may use these for my own PCs or possibly NPCs someday. Personally I favor the spellcasting rogue route with some tricks or feats to add either attack/damage bonuses, special effects etc. Its kind of an involved build but the feat to change the energy descriptor of a spell to make ray of frost into ray of force; the trait to lower metamagic by 1 and the feat Toppling Spell; SA with ray at 30', move, foe knocked prone, you continue to SA until foe is destroyed.
But that's just a dream. I'm sure now that I've posted it, it will become a nightmare.
In the case of acid splash, a lvl 1 dip in dragon blooded sorceror .... unless that is howyou got your 0 lvl spells ... can add +1 damage per die to one type of energy such as acid, fire, cold
The whole reason this came up was because in our first session his crossbow string broke. Mending isn't very quick to cast so he switched to Acid Splash and realized he really wasn't doing much. So now he's looking at his spells to, as AD pointed out, find a WIZARDLY backup to the crossbow.In my campains I allow a 3.5 spell from the Spell Compendium. Its called Launch Bolt. It is a 0 level spell it has a costly material component equal to the cost of a crossbow bolt. You make a ranged attack roll with the casting of the spell and if you hit you deal light crossbow damage.
I love it especially now that 0 level spells are reusable. Its not overpowered especially with the material component cost, it lets you do something useful but still keeping the wizardly feel.
I rather liked that spell. It allowed a wizard to be wizardly, but not sully himself with carrying a weapon. Only ammo. It was cool.