I am currently contemplating playing a Wizard with the specialized school of Enchantment. I have read that the spells themselves are overall sub-par (thus the reason I'm contemplating it and not just going with it), however I plan on playing the party face or at least one of them and I feel the enchanter could play that particular part well.
That being said, I'm looking for some advice from more experienced players as to which spell(s) per level are worth taking, seeing as one spell out of the two when leveling up must be from the specialized school.
Any advice / suggestions?
Here is what I have in my mind thus far: (By the way we start at level 3, I'm just planning ahead.)
1st lv. Spells:
Charm Person (For Obvious Reasons)
Sleep (Up until a point)
Bungle (Maybe)
2nd lv. Spells:
Oppressive Boredom (Takes away an action... potentially)
Compassionate Ally (Seems risky, especially if the spell ends mid help)
Qualm (Good effects but its effects are easily negated / gotten rid of)
3rd lv. Spells:
Herosim (Decent Buff)
Hold Person (Enemy not acting could be good.)
Suggestion (Fun can be had.)
That is as far as I'll go as our games don't tend to go for very long before evaporating into non-existence. Are these spells worth it? (My first wizard / spell caster really) Or would it be truly best to specialize in a different school and just keep these handy instead of being forced to take them as mandatory each level?
Note: Opposing Schools = Abjuration & Necromancy
The spell you want mate is Unatural Lust, not only akward as hell for the GM to describe , removes thier action for the entire round and if your GM like to have a bit of fun might even be able to start a fight within the enemy ranks.
Cast on Orc captain who fails and starts trying to passionately kiss his second in command, just because the spell ends doesn't mean the second in command is going to let that go hehehe
Playing an Enchanter now. Lots of fun. As I mentioned in another thread just a minute ago, my ultimate goal is to float along invisibly behind my army of dominated man-servants who do all the work in combat.
-1st: Charm Person is the best choice. It's great for non-combats and to prevent combats. I've already used this in combination with both bluff and diplomacy to pick up a permanent goblin man-servant.
-2nd: Hideous Laughter is actually a great spell. If it fails it's first save, then that's two rounds of no actions while prone on the ground, conferring a +4 to hit for your melee guys. I've ended a lot of fights with this spell even though the target made the second save.
-3rd: Heroism is a decent buff that is worth eventually extending and sticking on your main fighter or rogue anytime you're expecting a dungeon crawl.
Suggestion can be incredibly useful if you use your imagination. I typically use it to tell people to get out of the city before we defeat them and turn them over to the town guard, or to take a swim in that lake/river/etc because it's a hot day. It's also versatile outside of combat, making it doubly useful. By the time you pick it up, that's a five hour duration, so you can get really creative and basically get rid of creatures for good.
-4th: Confusion is the clear winner here. Any spell that could potentially make enemies attack themselves... GOLD.
Other solid, non-enchantment spells to round out your list include:
1 - Enlarge Person (for the melee guy), Color Spray, Silent Image
2 - Invisibility (like... seriously)
3 - Fly and Haste
The Summon spells are also useful, though the low level ones are really only good for flanks and bodies on the field.
The spell selection largely depends on your DM and the campaign. Some DMs won't let wizards get away with anything, and some campaigns lend themselves more strongly to certain types of spells. If it's your first spellcaster, I'd not burden yourself with trying to select from all these other books. Stick to the core and maybe the APG and learn what those spells are capable of first.
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Selecting spells only from Core isn't a big sacrifice. It actually has most of the best spells for each level. Your DM may not know this, and think you're just being considerate for not asking for the exotic stuff :P
As an enchanter I would consider Protection from Arrows over Invisibility, because offensive (enchantment) spells would break the latter but not the former.
While its generally a bad idea to dilute spellcasters, enchanters can benefit a LOT from a level of crossblooded sorcerer.
Charm Humanoids/undead/animals/magical beasts/monstrous humanoids is a much better spell than charm person (serpentine/undead bloodline). I think you can get plants and Vermin, too, with the right bloodlines...
Choices like that can greatly expand the value of existing spells, and make them more valuable than otherwise :)
Not a fan of Qualm and Compassionate Ally is redundant with Hideous Laughter.
Oppressive Boredom is basically the same concept as well, but it does have slightly more coverage than Hideous Laughter.
Heroism is worth it, especially due to the duration.
Remember that as an enchanter you only HAVE to memorize one enchantment spell a day. The rest of your slots can be anything you want (Though I would avoid your opposition schools.)
Put it out of your mind that just because you are an enchanter you need to cast lots and lots of enchantment spells. This goes for any specialization you choose to go with (Including and especially if you decide to go with Divination.)
This all is very helpful, thanks everyone.
@ Professor Q You know, for some reason or another, I actually did have it in my mind that I had to memorize more than one. Glad that was brought up, thanks.
@ Martryn Good to hear from someone who's played the enchanter. I talked with my DM last night and brought up all the creatures that couldn't be mind effected and he told me not to worry too much, which was reassuring as he's the one that suggested I go Enchanter as the party talker.
@ Phasics That sounds like it could be hilarious, definitely has a lot of interesting possibilities.
@ Krispy I'll have to look into that for sure. I assume the most damage that would happen is me losing a level of spell progression? Could be harsh, but the increase of targets does sound worth it.
@ Ascalaphus From your suggestion as well as everyone else's, I'll definitely go with hideous laughter.
Thanks for all the info everyone. Guess if I'm going to do this enchanter, I best get Spell Focus and start cracking humanoid brains.
I think you can do many of the old and new spells with Suggestion alone, think about it:
Compassionate Ally - suggestion that the enemy should help this pathetic creature.
Unnatural Lust - suggestion that target looks rather sexy and should smother it a bit.
Oppressive boredom - suggestion that you are extremely bored (or something to that effect).
Charm Anything - suggestion that your allies are plotting against you, help use defeat them.
That is a good point, suggestion seems very open ended which is what makes it so awesome I guess.
Am I correct in remembering that you must choose and add one spell from your specialized school to your known spells list each time you level?
So, you get 2 spells to add to your known spells list every time you level up and one has to be (in this instance) enchanting?
If that's indeed the case, it might look something like this:
1st. level
Charm Person (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)
2nd. level
Sleep (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)
3rd. level
Hideous Laughter (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)
Is this right for a 3rd level Enchanter Wizard? Just making sure. Thanks again everyone.
That is a good point, suggestion seems very open ended which is what makes it so awesome I guess.
Am I correct in remembering that you must choose and add one spell from your specialized school to your known spells list each time you level?
So, you get 2 spells to add to your known spells list every time you level up and one has to be (in this instance) enchanting?
If that's indeed the case, it might look something like this:
1st. level
Charm Person (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)2nd. level
Sleep (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)3rd. level
Hideous Laughter (one of the 2 spells added to the known list)Is this right for a 3rd level Enchanter Wizard? Just making sure. Thanks again everyone.
It dosen't have to be from your specilist school however if you don't pick a spell from your school then you can't use your +1 spell slot for that new spell level until you learn a spell from that school, if it an inbetween level then no reason to pickup another spell from your school if you don't want to.
so 4 new spells every 2 level and only 1 should be from your specialist school to take advantage of the bonus slot so 3 spell that can come from any school.
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Phasics is wrong;
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
Personally I'd go with Sleep at level 1 and Charm Person at level 2, because Sleep gets less useful sooner, but at level 1 it can really save your bacon. For example against Orcs; terrifying combat stats for a 1HD monster, but a -1 Will save.
Don't discount Daze as a cantrip on the low levels. It costs you little and presumably you'll get Spell Focus quickly (because you have so many Saving Throw spells in Enchantment).
As a party talker, Memory Lapse sounds interesting too. Hypnotism isn't so bad either. So maybe you should take Charm Person and Sleep both at level 1, and at level 2 add Memory Lapse or Hypnotism.
Also, as party talker you might want to invest in the Cosmopolitan feat to make Diplomacy and Bluff class skills (or maybe do this with Traits).
Thanks for clearing that up. I see what you mean about Sleep, it's very limited indeed, especially compared to the Witch's hex (but that's for good reason).
I'm definitely liking the hypnotism, but memory lapse seems a bit limited in that it's best when there aren't others around to see you cast it.
I originally planned on using traits for Bluff and Diplomacy, getting Perception and Sense Motive with Cosmopolitan.
While I'm still mulling on whether to play an enchanter or not, all the info presented is very helpful. Thanks everyone.
Is there a reason you want Wizard over Sorcerer? As much as it pains me to say (I love Wizards), there really is no advantage for going Wizard in your case. You want to be the party face, so you'll need CHA anyway, add the bonus skills from Sorcerer bloodlines (and the abilities from the bloodlines), and Sorcerer is a better choice (which unfortunately seems to be the case 95% of the time).
I did look into Sorcerer's and I'm not against them and they would most likely be superior for party faces. However, in battle spell wise, I thought wizards had slightly more utility with the increased amount of known spells.
The bloodlines are good, but I'd have to find one that was really good as I don't think cross blooded is worth taking for a full Sorcerer. The bloodlines I liked (Verdant and some others) didn't seem like they did enough for me.
I realize there is expanded arcana for the lack of spells know, but I doubt it'd be efficient enough to take that feat repeatedly, although, I can't be entirely sure, as for the most part except for one character, I've only played rogues of different sorts.
As much as it pains me to say (I love Wizards), there really is no advantage for going Wizard in your case. You want to be the party face, so you'll need CHA anyway, add the bonus skills from Sorcerer bloodlines (and the abilities from the bloodlines), and Sorcerer is a better choice (which unfortunately seems to be the case 95% of the time).
While I agree that sorcerer is also a good choice, I disagree that they're better enchanters. Sure, the DC is higher, but they also have to wait an extra level to gain access to some of the more powerful spells, like Dominate Person, Confusion, etc.
An Enchanter gets a slight bonus on three social skills to help make up for a lower Cha, but with a higher Int, he can keep more skills maxed and splash a point into Knowledge skills or Linguistics, filling other roles for the party.
Free Scribe Scroll and access to a spellbook allows the Enchanter to carry around all sorts of utility scrolls for relatively cheap. Having access to things like Knock or Water Breathing and the like for those situational encounters is important.
The bonus feats that a wizard gets come sooner than those of the sorcerer, and are generally more useful. Free Extend at level 5? Yes please.
There are pros and cons to both, and I'm not saying one choice is better than the other. I'm just sick of Enchanters getting a bad rap because people assume the Fey blood sorcerer is a stronger choice. It is, in areas. It isn't in other.
There are pros and cons to both, and I'm not saying one choice is better than the other. I'm just sick of Enchanters getting a bad rap because people assume the Fey blood sorcerer is a stronger choice. It is, in areas. It isn't in other.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's just Enchanters, I'm saying it's Wizards as a whole. The utility of wizard is, in my opinion, vastly overstated. Most utility spells are lower levels, making scrolls and wands, even at full price, pretty inexpensive for a Sorcerer. The only saving grace is a wizard can leave spell slots open to fill as needed, although it does take 15 minutes so it's not a combat option really, and has the downside of giving you even fewer spells ready compared to a Sorcerer.
Sorcerers are also much more versatile when it comes to metamagic. They can throw it on any spell as needed, where the Wizard's player had to be psychic enough to prepare it ahead of time. Of course the Sorcerer fans have somehow gotten it into their head that this is actually a serious limitation of the class (still trying to work out the logic behind how having a class that stays at the back of the party launching spells lose a move action can in any way be considered a serious limitation).
The only thing a Wizard really has over a Sorcerer is a getting higher level spells 1 level early. Depending on how important you think that is, is really the only differentiating factor. Personally, I feel, a lower level spell with a much higher save DC can be just as effective as a higher level spell but as always YMMV
Uh oh, it starts again... Wizard vs. Sorcerer! Round "OMGOSH is that Cthulu!?"
Kaptainkrunch's (Opinionated) facts about why the Wizard is better than the Sorcerer (Most of the time.):
1. Spell Level progression on Odd levels starting at level 3 instead of even levels starting at level 4. This is the most glaring and biggest issue I have with Sorcerers and the hardest time I have playing them (or Oracles for that matter.) At level 20 this is obviously not an issue, but leveling up, Sorcerers are going to be crying when the Wizard is able to fly while they are still grounded and etc.
2. ONE SPELL known when they DO finally get that level up. Hooray, the Sorcerer finally has the same spell level as the Wizard, and what can they do? The same spell 3 times a day. The Wizard has 4 spells in that spell level by that point to pick from. Not cool for the Sorcerer.
3. Intelligence > Charisma. This is difficult to argue. The social skills just aren't terribly powerful, and they're really the only thing that benefits from Charisma. Intelligence gets you more skill points and more languages, the former being extremely potent especially if you take advantage of your already nice knowledge skills (Thanks to them being INT based in the first place.)
The biggest counter argument I hear to this one is the Leadership skill, but the biggest attraction of Leadership is the Cohort. With a stronghold to counter having a familiar, if the Wizard and the Sorcerer both take leadership at level 7, they're BOTH going to have a level 5 cohort, because the max level your cohort can be is two levels below your class level. If you don't let your Cohort die and let him level up with you then you're going to have the exact same cohort level as your Sorcerer competitor. The only thing the Sorcerer is going to enjoy is more low level cronies (Which isn't bad, but they're just not the main attraction.)
4. Pearls of Power and similar items. The Sorcerer has more spells per day (Early on an average of 2 more spells per day on even levels, and about 8 more per day at level 18). But the Sorcerer doesn't have a plethora of magic items to choose from that makes it so you can restore or expand your spell slots. They can enjoy rings of wizardry, but those are more expensive than Pearls.
5. The obvious. Wizards potentially have more spells known and have the versatility of selecting those spells as they plan for every occasion. Even if the Sorcerer plans his spells out perfectly, there WILL always be a time that he wished he'd taken X spell known NOW instead of planning on taking it next level. The Wizard scribes it in his spell book and pulls it out when it is necessary.
This can obviously be mitigated by buying scrolls, but then you're burning your resources while the Wizard can even scribe the scrolls for half price since he actually knows the spell.
6. No casting time increase for Metamagic spells. Yes, this can be avoided to some degree with bloodline powers, but by default Wizards enjoy it for the spells they prepare ahead of time.
I'm sure I have more than this but I dunno, points 1 through 3 are enough to make my decision.
Sorcerers are also much more versatile when it comes to metamagic. They can throw it on any spell as needed, where the Wizard's player had to be psychic enough to prepare it ahead of time. Of course the Sorcerer fans have somehow gotten it into their head that this is actually a serious limitation of the class (still trying to work out the logic behind how having a class that stays at the back of the party launching spells lose a move action can in any way be considered a serious limitation).
I'd like to point out that it doesn't take a psychic genius to understand the benefits of a Dazing Fireball or a Persistent Confusion spell.
Additionally, for that spell that you just want to spontaneously add metamagic to all the time, there's preferred spell, which incidentally doesn't increase the casting time when you add metamagic either.
All that said, I'd like to say that in this particular circumstance where the goal is to be the party face, the sorcerer is probably better.
You can attempt to pull off the role with either class with spells, but I think you'll just end up running out of spells per day pretty quickly. This is where the Sorcerer can fall back on his (probably) superior personality skills to do the job.
I say probably because the Sorc still has to deal with his 2 skill points per level without pumping more into intelligence.
I actually wonder if the Wizard might be able to be better at this too - at least in the very short run - if he took a little extra Charisma and the Enchantment school with maybe a trait that gave him diplomacy as a class skill....
Once you start boosting your stats with items and level ups the Sorc will easily edge out though.