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Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted.
Vital StrikeBenefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Can these be used together?
I made a recent suggestion in another thread and have used them together before in a campaign. After looking at them I hadn't realized there was any doubt that they would work together but since someone has brought up some doubt I figured I would ask the community what you think. I doubt we will discover a solid answer as it seems ambiguous enough to be left to DM's discretion. For this reason I would suggest hitting FAQ so that we might get some Dev input on intention and/or at least what they think.
I don't see why it wouldn't work, TWF and Rapid Shot also works together for thrown weapons and guns, this ability combination doesn't look anything different in core concept to me
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Vital strike: When you use the attack action,
Imbue Arrow: A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting.
You aren't using a attack action, so, No, you can't-
...Vital Strike is an attack action, btw, which is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full-attack action.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
From that you can't use it as a part of a spellcasting action too.
he CAN fire the arrow as part of the casting, but as I see it he doesn't have to as he could just wait in the same turn for a better moment or hand the arrow over to an other character to use it that turn, plus the arrow still has to be shot, and shooting it is an attack
trying to deny it per RAW won't work, because if the character can just hand the arrow over to someone else to shoot it with vital strike, then it can be shot by the same person using that ability as well
there are also methods (witch, godling, maybe oracle comes to mind, same with those artificial hands) how you can cast and still have the ability to use a standard action if that is an issue
if the GM still tries to block you then just cooperate with an other PC archer or use Leadership and hand the prepared arrow over to get it shot by someone else
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Wrong on two count, Ryu:
1) read the citation I added
2) the Imbue Arrow ability in no way allow him change the spell casting time so he has to complete the spell and launch the arrow at the same time. It not the spell is resolved at the time of completing it where the arrow is.
so he has not the time to pass the arrow to some other guy after completing the casting of the spell and having the other guy launch it.
well, then he doesn't use it as part of full attack, that isn't a big deal for the non-pure fighter characters
as for casting time, one either makes the attack quicker than standard action (can be done, but rare), or it comes to the question what exactly "standard casting time" is for character that can normally cast certain spells as move actions
I maybe wrong as I don't know how it works in Pathfinder, but doesn't Haste also grant an extra action that could be used for this?
"The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted"
As I read this, "round" doesn't equal "character turn" but rather the one turn/round all allies and enemies acted and get to the next one, if so, the arrow can be handed over as said above
No, Haste don't give extra spell actions. That is a 3.0 rule.
It was changed in 3.5.
didn't mean spell action, I meant either an extra move or attack, obviously attack would make things simpler, but some class abilities can also exchange a move action to make the combination work
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didn't mean spell action, I meant either an extra move or attack, obviously attack would make things simpler, but some class abilities can also exchange a move action to make the combination workNo, Haste don't give extra spell actions. That is a 3.0 rule.
It was changed in 3.5.
No you don't get a extra move action or a extra attack action with haste.
You get:
1) one extra attack as part of a full attack routine if you are making a full attack. It is not a separate action.
2) "All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement." Again, you get +30' to your movement as part of the movement action, not as a separate movement action.
Action in this contest is a specific word referring the "Action in combat" section of the rules.
well then, I guess either use a godling focusing on action per turn improvement abilities, or just hand the damn arrow over as mentioned earlier to an ally that didn't act that round yet
EDIT: just realized it, that with its hair a witch could use a want to cast a spell for Imbue Arrow then fire it as normal, but I guess I mentioned something like that earlier already, just not this specific
"Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses."
Says Weapons Damage Dice... seems pretty clear cut there. Weapon, not spell. All the bow does is supply range, not damage.
"Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses."
Says Weapons Damage Dice... seems pretty clear cut there. Weapon, not spell. All the bow does is supply range, not damage.
true, that is why at the very start of the thread I said I don't see anything wrong with it, it isn't as if the ability makes roll an imbued fireball spell damage twice or something
Malaaxous: it is not a matter of whether the damage stacks that I question. It is an action economy issue.
What it boils down to is this:
In the description of Imbue arrow when it says, "...the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." is the action required to fire that arrow the same as the action required to fire an arrow any other time (read: an attack action)? If so then it works. If not, why is the action of firing that arrow different from the action of firing an arrow any other time?
Either way, please hit FAQ so this gets a bit of attention. Thank you. :)
Ugh. I have not seen this Godling thing yet but already it is annoying me. It sounds like just another "do anything" class.
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The Imbue Arrow ability says that "This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range." All the ability does is increase spell range.
The way this would work is that the spell would need to be quickened (since using Vital Strike will take up the standard action). Vital Strike would then come into play if the arrow strikes a target and does damage. If that occurs, only the arrow damage would be affected by Vital Strike, not the spell damage.
Ugh. I have not seen this Godling thing yet but already it is annoying me. It sounds like just another "do anything" class.
the background for the classes is the classic historical/mythical heroes of old, like Herakles, so with divine spark they do have flexibility in what "theme" they want to develop into (like a superior melee fighter, a rider, a spellcaster, an artist, etc)
after getting through the data crunch you realize that they are actually very good and balanced classes, and while it can do something it gives up on other options, just like other classes and archetypes
3rd party classes tend to do that, or do nothing in a complicated manner.
That's not true at all.
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You can't use Vital Strike on the attack you get from using Imbue Arrow.
If you don't use it when you cast the spell, you could use it then during that round.
For example, if you cast Quickened Damage Spell, you could then use vital strike in that round with the imbued arrow to just roll the arrow's base damage dice twice.
Or, you could fire the arrow as part of casting, and then full attack with the bow. I guess.
Note that there's nothing in the ability that negates the need to target the intersection of squares for some spells.
Question to the nay sayers: What kind of action does it take to "fire the arrow"?
I'm not saying that I disagree with you necessarily, I just am wondering how you account for Imbue Arrow allowing you to "fire the arrow" and it to NOT be an attack action. I could more easily see it being a exception to the general rule and being both a casting action and an attack action at once. Thats what the text of Imbue Arrow seems to indicate to me anyway.
What kind of action does it take to "fire the arrow"?
you quoted it yourself : "...can fire the arrow as part of the casting"
So it depends on the action required to cast the spell.
And Cheapy already said it, if you want to imbue the arrow and use vital strike in the same round you'll have to quicken the spell.
Ps : hitted faq anyway
I think maybe we are all reading the same thing but putting different emphasis on different parts.
Some are reading it as, "can fire the arrow as part of the casting".
In this case it would work because the emphasis is placed on the action type of firing an arrow which is compatible with Vital Strike.
Some are reading it as, "can fire the arrow as part of the casting".
In this case it wouldn't work because the emphasis is placed on the action of casting a spell which doesn't allow for the attack action that it takes to use Vital Strike.
Some are reading it as, "can fire the arrow as part of the casting".
In this case it would work because the emphasis is being placed on the Imbue Arrow specifically allowing for two actions to take place where they normally could not. There is both an attack action and casting a spell and anything that can be done with either is allowable. If you want to Quicken the spell, that can be done because the spell is still being cast. If you want to do something that requires an attack action like Vital Strike you can do that because an attack action is taking place.
Personally, I place myself in the last group because I think it is the most balanced and follows what I believe was intended. But see ... that is just the issue. We do not know what was intended. However, with those being the three differing opinions (that I know of - if I missed any let me know) and with two of them saying that it would work it seems logical to figure that it is more likely that it would work than it would not. Right?
Anyway... hit FAQ, please.
PS: Just noticed that your name is in fact Highglander rather than Highlander. That is hilargeous. (sweet, I can make up awesome words too!)
Vital strike requires an attack action, which is a standard action.
Imbue arrow requires to cast a spell, which action it is depends on the spell.
If the spells requires a standard action, you can't use vital strike in the same round you cast the spell since it would require 2 standard actions and you only have one.
If the spell requires a swift action (quicken spell), then you can imbue the arrow and not fire it, then fire the arrow with an attack action using vital strike.
ps: "Highglander rather than Highlander."
I happen to be french, this name has its meaning :)
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Nowhere the ability say that you get any kind of attack.
The core of the ability is:
This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range.
even for spell with a range of you or touch,
You get to fire an arrow to benefit for a longer range for your spell, not to get a free attack.
The ability say. "When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands,", not "where the arrow hit a target".
Again there is no mention of any kind of attack action, to hit roll or any other way to deliver the arrow damage.
The arrow is a carrier for the spell but you simply use it as a prop. You say "my spell will be centered here" where here is any location within the maximum range of your bow and with a line of sight from your location.
All your emphasis on fire miss the little fact that it don't say "make an attack".
Whoa whoa whoa, wait a second. So, Diego, you are saying that you don't even get to hit with the arrow? I have never heard that opinion shared anywhere. Do you have anything to back this up?
I'm sorry but I do not think that is the way it works. Ever post I have seen about Arcane Archers has assumed the inclusion of weapon damage along with the spell effect. Where are you getting this opinion from because I am reading the same passage you are and getting an entirely different interpretation from it. And apparently I am not alone here.
When it says, "...the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." I believe it means to fire the arrow in the classic sense. When it says, "If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted." it implies the possibility of it missing, unlike when aiming a spell like fireball. So I believe there is an attack roll. And if you "fire the arrow" and have to roll to attack then I do not see why there would not be damage from the arrow from the resulting impact.
Highglander: I understand your point of view and see why you are saying what you are saying. I understand the other points of view too and they just make more sense to me. *shrug*
Highglander: I understand your point of view and see why you are saying what you are saying. I understand the other points of view too and they just make more sense to me. *shrug*
Ultimately the GM has the final say, but "fire the arrow as part of the casting" isn't the same as getting a free attack action
But it is an attack. It says "If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted." If there is a possibility of it missing then there has to be an attack roll. Right?
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But it is an attack. It says "If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted." If there is a possibility of it missing then there has to be an attack roll. Right?
Right, but there isn't anything about getting an attack roll and about what you can/should target.
I put silence on the arrow. Fire it at you. I have it you. You are affected without St as the arrow is embedded in you/your armor?
Fireball, you get the ST, maybe even with evasion against a spell that has hit you?
That piece of text was added in Pathfinder as it isn't present in the 3.5 DMG. So maybe someone has decided that a attack action was involved but forgot to give out the specifications of how it work.
Time to ask JJ.
Lemme know what you find out, Diego. You are literally the only person I have ever heard express that opinion, though.
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Her is JJ reply. I think that my questions have covered all the topics in this thread.
James, a question about the Arcane archer, born from this thread.
: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted.Nowhere in the ability description a attack roll is called out or any attack action or arrow damage but the last row say "If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted."
That last row was added in the passage between the DMG and Pathfinder.Before that addendum was pointed out to me my interpretation was that the whole "Imbue Arrow" idea was to add range to a spell without it or with a limited range. The arrow was fired to a point in space whitout chance to miss.
With that added I have several problems.
!) Who or what is the target of the fired arrow
2) what kind of action is firing the arrow?
3) If it is a free attack action and the arrow was imbued with a quickened spell, you can use vital strike with that attack?
4) you can give the arrow to another character that will fire it?
5) If you hit the target what happen with his ST?
A rogue with evasion can evade the area effect spell when he is hit by the arrow?
What happen if silence is imbued in the arrow? When it hit me I get struck with silence without a ST as the arrow is struck in my body or my possessions?When you imbue an arrow, that arrow must hit its target for the spell to trigger. That means if it's an area spell, you need to make a successful attack roll to hit the point you want the spell to go off. If it's a creature or object, that means you need to hit it as normal. The arrow does indeed do normal damage to the target, which makes it kinda risky for delivering healing and helpful spells!
1) The target of the arrow is whowever or wherever you want the spell to affect.
2) It's part of your spellcasting action, so that depends on the spell being cast.
3) It's not a free attack action—it's part of spellcasting, so so you can't use feats that alter attacks on this thing. No Vital Strike or Deadly Aim. You DO gain the benefits of "automatic" feats, though, like Point Blank Shot or Weapon Focus.
4) You can, but if you do so that arrow is fired as a normal arrow of its kind and the imbued spell fails. This is basically analogous to giving another character your spell components in the middle of casting the spell. It does little more than ruin your spell.
5) Not sure what you mean here by "ST." (Example #3,342 why speaking in Acronym is trouble...) OH! Do you mean a saving throw? If so... imbue arrow doesn't change a thing at all how saving throws work... your target still saves normally against the spell. You just get to target him at possibly a better range and add some arrow damage in the meantime is all. The spell still works the same otherwise.
If you hit a rogue with evasion, you do arrow damage normally and then as the spell triggers you resolve that spell normally. If the spell allows a reflex save, the character has a chance to evade the spell normally (in this case, perhaps part of his evasion is to yank the arrow out/push the arrow through and toss it aside with a quick tug as he dodges the other way, or something like that).
If silence is imbued in the arrow, the target gets to save normally. The spell isn't cast on the arrow, and if you're the target of the spell and miss your save, throwing the arrow away or leaving it stuck in you doesn't make a difference since the silence spell is on YOU, not the arrow.
Hm. Well, that does seem to answer things.
So it is an attack with the arrow. The arrow does do it's damage if you hit someone with it.
I guess I can understand his reasoning as to why it wouldn't work with Vital Strike mostly due to action economy. However... Deadly Aim? That one doesn't make any sense to me at all. It doesn't take any action to do it and it applies to "all ranged attacks". I'm not sure what part of firing an Imbued Arrow would not qualify as a "ranged attack" especially if it is one where the arrow does damage.
Anyway, a response from James might be as official as we are going to get so I guess the rest is left to DM fiat. Personally, I would allow Vital Strike and Deadly Aim. Sure, your only getting a single arrow attack with a spell attached to it but IMO that is what the Arcane Archer is MEANT to do. Limiting that seems like your limiting the signature move of the class to me.
Thanx for asking that last question by the way. I had wondered about that. I guess if you didn't want them to get a saving throw you could simply cast it on the arrow rather than Imbuing the arrow. Then you could Imbue the arrow with another spell. Like one that hampers vision or something so they have trouble casting the spell due to the silence and even after they deal with that they still have to deal with gaining line of sight.