My players were walking across an ancient stone bridge at night in a fog. Said bridge is part of a ruin, 50' over a river and not only considered Difficult Terrain because it was crumbly but it's slippery because of a bunch of lichen and moss. Long story boring they missed seeing a "trap" where a section of the bridge collapsed, one of the PC's fell in and almost died in the river and there was an amazing set of rolls for another PC to rescue the drowning man.
Then...there's a 10x15 section of bridge out. There's a narrow ledge and railing along one side that's still in place across the struts. They ask me "what's easier; Climb or Acrobatics?" And I tell them "Climb". To a man they decide jumping it with Acrobatics is their only option.
Had it not been for a single rope this would've been a TPK.
I had the conversation with them afterwards: 1. that wasn't the smartest decision, 2. that scene wasted almost an hour of real time. I then asked if they wanted to keep going and they said yes.
I'm sure there's been other threads like this out there but GM's, please tell me what scenarios you've posed that ate up this kind of time? Did you just reel it in at some point and say "this happens..." to get the action moving again or let the scene play out?
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The Tale of the Impenetrable Portcullis.
My level 7 party is making their way through the Demonskar in our Shackled City game. Coming out of the underground tunnels, they find themselves in a small canyon. The only way forward appears to be a large steel portcullis that leads into caves.
They handily dispatch the sentry outside, and approach the gate. I tell them there is a 2ft hole above the portcullis that seems clear.
They begin deliberating how to proceed. It's finally decided for them when the elven fighter spiderclimbs up to the hole and spots the hill giant guard on his ledge. Combat begins.
The players are stymied when they learn that the Escape Artist check to squeeze through the hole is DC 30 for a Medium creature, 20 for a Small. None of them have Escape Artist.
The battle rages with ranged attacks through the hole. The eladrin player is reminded that, since they're in the middle of nowhere, he can use his incorporal globe form without a care. He floats through the gate and is attacked by boulders that, being non-magical, pass harmlessly through. Not wanting to be harmed (Savage Species progression, low HP), he sits tight.
More enemies are called in. The party is trapped on the outside, the enemy can't really harm the eladrin.
Finally, the lizardfolk warlock grabs the catfolk monk and dimension doors through to the ledge. They begin beating down the first guard and trying to work the winch to raise the gate. Not being strong enough, the changling druid tries to assist from the outside. I finally decide that them all working together manages to raise it enough to let the rest of the party inside.
This entire affair took up about two hours of game time, and drained every player at the table due to the futility of it. The elven fighter's player got upset at the DC, but managed to calm down with some words from the druid's player.
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Mark, the point of the game is to play the game. As long as the players enjoyed the death-struggle, all is well. It doesn't matter if an hour is chewed up climbing over a wall or in combat with the BBEG. It's all game.
Now, for this particular scenario I'm not surprised. Players are a suspicious sort. I KNOW that I mentally process things differently when I'm a DM versus when I'm a player. As a player I see dangers everywhere I can think of. As a DM I put dangers... everywhere I can think of. Only thing is that when I'm playing, I think of a a lot more places. It's always a trap. Don't do the obvious. That's the player's mental mantra. So if Climbing is the obvious best choice, it's the obvious worst choice.
You can't win.
Wow... I think it depends on your players. Our second session of RotRL lasted 8 hours and their total kill count was... 2 skeletons and a goblin. Yet every player described it as an "epic session". They barely covered 2 pages in the AP.
Some players REALLY like to roleplay everything out, discuss it and analyze it, and agree that they're taking the best possible path. If the players are having fun, it's not an issue at all. Put on your 'patience pants', answer their questions honestly, and wait for them to decide to do something.
It's when the players get frustrated by something they see as an insurmountable obstacle, or when they're in life-and-death situations (like yours) that it gets dicey.
For "insurmountable" obstacles, I encourage them to make extra PER rolls, give them time to discuss it, and try to think of Knowledge skills that might help them. For life-and-death obstacles, I set a 1-minute timer for every person to declare their actions. After GM'ing several "insurmountable" obstacles, I realized that if I can't think of a possible way past, the PCs just might not find a way, either. (I consider a group of PCs to *always* be more clever than me, but that doesn't guarantee they'll always find a solution.)
But back to the original bridge issue: My players would NEVER walk across an ancient bridge at night in a fog without roping themselves together and anchoring the rope. They'd send a Small character with good acrobatics ahead to check the soundness of the bridge (and attract any attackers). So while it's ALWAYS dangerous to approach your players and say, "Y'know, you might have considered...", but I see the issue in your situation being less-than-careful players falling into a rather obvious trap and then being upset that it was hard to get out of. I'm sorry it didn't go well for the players, but I don't see losing an hour to it and having most of the players alive as being a problem. It was an "educational incident".
TriOmegaZero's situation was much more, "If you don't roll well you're hosed." He did it, I've done it, we've all done it: We set up something we think is really cool, and give the monsters impenetrable defenses, and then realize, "Whoops, these really are impenetrable." In such cases I tend to encourage the players to flee and re-plan. Amazing the kind of things players will come up with if you let them see the set-up, back off for a bit, go shopping (even population 100 towns or caravans have some tools), and re-commit. (No idea whether TOZ's situation allowed them to retreat. As a player, I would have retreated if at all possible. Sometimes, life sucks).
Oh the stories I could tell!
The Tale of the Blonde Shapeshifter
I know what that's like. I once had a player play a changeling in Eberron (similar to a doppelganger). She wanted to join the assassin's guild and was tasked with killing an artificer while making it look like an accident--plenty of opportunity for creativity. She, through no effort of her own, found her way to the artificer's workshop in the middle of the city, a tall tower. Rather than change shape and infiltrate the facility (which had people coming in and out all day long) she hid outside the facility until nightfall trying to think of a way in (there were numerous windows, not that they mattered to a changeling that could infiltrate the place with ease). After waiting for FOUR HOURS of real time for her to figure something out, I threw her a bone. The artificer left the facility and started for home. She trailed him, keeping to the shadows, loaded her heavy crossbow, and tried to shoot him in the back.
She missed. The would be target called for the city guard and ran around a corner while she struggled to reload her crossbow. He got away. Even if he hadn't, it wouldn't have looked anything like an accident.
It was such a waste. I even had a cage full of girallons inside the facility that the artificer and his colleagues had been experimenting on. She could have released the enraged beasts and let them kill everyone while she made her escape in the distraction, thereby fulfilling her obligations to the assassin's guild. Practically handed the entire mission to her on a silver platter--and she never even made it through the front door! A CHANGELING!
She never got the target. We didn't invite her back after that. Clearly the young blonde wasn't cut out for creativity or problem solving.
The Tale of the Sadist Healer
Just finished up a game today in which our characters were on a mission to enter a dark/sinister castle and retrieve a specific item from the castle's master on behalf of one of his rivals (and our benefactor failed to tell us exactly what it was we were to retrieve for some reason).
Anyways, we were magically transported to the castle and appeared in some random hallway deep in its bowels. We were in a long hallway, about 15-feet wide, some 90 feet long, with lit torches in sconces and a REALLY low ceiling (maybe 6 feet?). There. Were. Bodies. Everywhere. Some hanging in manacles, some piled on the floor. Most were rotted, some were fresh, all were quite dead (and seemingly killed in gruesome fashion no less.
Wary of the bodies, I inform the party that my summoner's expendable eidolon shall make its way down the hall searching for traps with its ungodly perception skill.
The party barbarian said "I don't have the patience for this" and ran ahead of the eidolon. Corpses exploded and before he knew it he was infested with rot grubs. Not knowing what they were, nobody in the party made any (appropriate) attempts to remove them. Also, mummies rose from the bodies and attacked the party. Several more characters became infested with rot grubs as they maneuvered about during the battle. The barbarian sucked up 14 Constitution damage, the cleric 12, the ninja 8, and my eidolon 6. Only the party fighter and my summoner escaped the lil' bastards. What's more, both the fighter and the barbarian became cursed with mummy rot! Oh, and the hallway was littered with other traps (most of which involved spikes and scythes that would pop out).
Needless to say, it was a ROUGH battle. After we (barely) defeated the mummies, we fell back out of the hall to rest and recover in a secure looking room (which we barred tight with a number of defenses). The next day, the cleric used ALL of his spells to cure the party of "most" of its ability damage and hit point loss. He also failed spectacularly at trying to remove the mummy rot.
Though we were better, we were still pretty beat up.
And we still needed to go through the hall of the dead. The cleric came up with a brilliant idea: Rather than all get killed by more rot grubs and as-of-yet discovered traps, he would simply activate his boots of teleportation, and 'port the party to the other side of the hall.
I (OOG) cautioned him about using limited resources and was about to recommend alternate course of action when he interrupted me and said "fine, you can all wait here" before running down the hall!
He made it to the end covered with rot grubs, suffering from severe constitution loss (being unable to cure it for lack of spells) and bleeding from a number of wounds caused by previously undiscovered traps.
First, the HEALING FOCUSED CLERIC just abandoned the rest of the party to deal with this damned hall on our own.
Second, he let an out of game remark affect his in-game actions.
Third, he was assigned as "party leader" by our benefactor and was supposed to be responsible for everyone's safety as well as ensuring the success of the mission.
In game and out I'm thinking he's CRAZY! What would have taken us 10-seconds to cross (real time) then took us THREE HOURS to navigate. By the time the party made it across this ONE hallway (our first encounter!!!) we were once again so beat up as to barely remain standing.
I refused to cross with the others on principle. It was practically suicide! The nutso cleric then teleported over to me and 'ported me across.
We used up a crap ton of resources (wands, potions, and such) to bring the party up to "not quite dead."
By the time we crossed the stupid hallway we had lost SIX FREAKING HOURS of game time and had expended an unbelievable amount of resources unnecessarily.
I'm beginning to think that our illustrious leader doesn't give a damn about our safety or the success of the mission; or is simply a whack job. Perhaps both?
God knows what else is in this castle beyond said hall.
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TriOmegaZero's situation was much more, "If you don't roll well you're hosed." He did it, I've done it, we've all done it: We set up something we think is really cool, and give the monsters impenetrable defenses, and then realize, "Whoops, these really are impenetrable." In such cases I tend to encourage the players to flee and re-plan. Amazing the kind of things players will come up with if you let them see the set-up, back off for a bit, go shopping (even population 100 towns or caravans have some tools), and re-commit. (No idea whether TOZ's situation allowed them to retreat. As a player, I would have retreated if at all possible. Sometimes, life sucks).
I think you missed the fact that the party had a warlock with at-will dimension door and a shape-shifting druid. Also, Savage Species eladrins have 2d12 light rays at-will while in incorporeal globe form.
And a door guarded by ogres with no magic gear stopped them for 2 and 1/2 hours.
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TriOmegaZero's situation was much more, "If you don't roll well you're hosed." He did it, I've done it, we've all done it: We set up something we think is really cool, and give the monsters impenetrable defenses, and then realize, "Whoops, these really are impenetrable." In such cases I tend to encourage the players to flee and re-plan. Amazing the kind of things players will come up with if you let them see the set-up, back off for a bit, go shopping (even population 100 towns or caravans have some tools), and re-commit. (No idea whether TOZ's situation allowed them to retreat. As a player, I would have retreated if at all possible. Sometimes, life sucks).I think you missed the fact that the party had a warlock with at-will dimension door and a shape-shifting druid. Also, Savage Species eladrins have 2d12 light rays at-will while in incorporeal globe form.
And a door guarded by ogres with no magic gear stopped them for 2 and 1/2 hours.
I must bow to your greatness and say, "Ouch!"
Truly, you are the Master owner of a pair of Pants of Patience!
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This is why I constantly remind my players of the Take 10 rule, and even of magic they possess.
It is also why I hate ability checks, outside of magic and 5 ability score increases over 20 levels ability scores are fairly static and don't scale with tougher DCs. I honestly think there should be a Might skill (or choose a better name if you have one) that allows PCs to make Strength based checks (Break objects and Burst bonds, increase their carrying capacity).
Consider that a challenge involving lifting a portcullis requires a strength check. But we already have lifting and carrying rules. Why can't a PC just say: "How heavy is the door? I can probably just lift it."
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As a GM I find it fun to do this.....
Toss in a fairly mundane item, in a room it should be in and throw a skeleton/corpse next to it. No traps, no curses, no spells, just a mundane thing. PCs will spend a ton of time trying to figure out what the trap is, how the skeleton/corpse died, etc.
I threw a skeleton on a throne in a room and the PCs took forever just to enter the room, then they used every spell possible to check things out from afar (mage hand, detect magic, detect evil), attacked it and the skeleton with ranged weapons, poked, prodded, pushed, pulled, etc.....for like an hour or so they did this, absolutely sure that something was wrong....i almost tossed in something just so they could find it and move on.
PCs are hilarious sometimes....
The party made it past the pit and the alchemist decides "I want to brew a potion of CLW" I explain it'll take 2 hours; he's fine w/it. He'd previously gotten all the supplies so he starts brewing.
I make some wandering monster checks and for a little while the fog kept them at bay. Eventually we had 2 giant centipedes arrive; a CR 1 fight. With the cleric out cold and the alchemist busy at his cauldron the monk and fighter shrug and say "We got this."
Numerous lucky hits and failed saves later the monk is at 8 Dex damage, the fighter at 6, not to mention they're both at 1/2 HP.
Needless to say even though their luck got better from there nothing could salvage the mission completley and once they finally got INTO the dungeon they only made it through a few rooms before fleeing back to town.
The irony is: my guys and I a couple months ago were getting fed up with the 15 min adventuring workday so we decided this session to institute Evil Linclon's Strain/Injury variant (which did it's job quite well thanks!). Bad luck reared its evil head and WHAM! The party only made it through 5 fights... and 1 trap. That IS technically a gain of 1 encounter over their usual nights, so I'll put it in the "wins" collumn, but just barely!
For "insurmountable" obstacles, I encourage them to make extra PER rolls, give them time to discuss it, and try to think of Knowledge skills that might help them. For life-and-death obstacles, I set a 1-minute timer for every person to declare their actions. After GM'ing several "insurmountable" obstacles, I realized that if I can't think of a possible way past, the PCs just might not find a way, either. (I consider a group of PCs to *always* be more clever than me, but that doesn't guarantee they'll always find a solution.)
But back to the original bridge issue: My players would NEVER walk across an ancient bridge at night in a fog without roping themselves together and anchoring the rope. They'd send a Small character with good acrobatics ahead to check the soundness of the bridge (and attract any attackers). So while it's ALWAYS dangerous to approach your players and say, "Y'know, you might have considered...", but I see the issue in your situation being less-than-careful players falling into a rather obvious trap and then being upset that it was hard to get out of. I'm sorry it didn't go well for the players, but I don't see losing an hour to it and having most of the players alive as being a problem. It was an "educational incident".
I see all your points and you're right, had the odds been insurmountable and the characters blundered intTHio it blind. Now my guys didn't rope themselves together but they did link arms, opt to move at 1/2 speed and declared they were actively searching for traps; they just missed it. They had the sub skills monkey monk out in front with a dex build and high acrobatics; he simply failed his save. The fighter managed a knowledge: engineering to see if the ledge and rail would hold; it would. The monk chose to roll his climb checks; he just missed one.
As to insurmountable the climb DCs were 10; the acrobatics was a 15. Sure the party didn't know that but they DID know that the Climb check looked "significantly easier, albeit needing more time", they knew there were no monsters threatning them in the immediate vicinity and they weren't in a time crunch. They considered roping themselves together and then tying off to the rail but honestly the players were tired, it was late on a Saturday night after long weeks of work and I think they were just looking to get this over and done with.
Honestly that last point is the reason I'm kicking myself for not just offer them to take a 10 on the Climb and moving on.
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I was DMing a game that was essentially a sequel to a campaign that I had been a player in previously. About half the players were new to me, introduced via a friend who was also playing. One of these players wanted to be a paladin/Vassal of Bahamut, which I was pleased about because it fit nearly perfectly with the events and tone of the campaign. The first red flags appeared when I looked over his character sheet to make sure everything was in order and noticed some...interesting entries under the languages section. Among his languages were "dorven," "soulestal," and my personal favorite, "abizzle" (which is how I always say it now). But I figured he was just really crappy at spelling, in this day and age people often are. Everything else looked more or less ok, so I told him about his languages being misspelled and we went on as planned. It became very clear very quickly that he had never played a paladin before. I don't think he ever once cast a spell, used detect magic, or smote evil without being prompted by someone else. He basically played the fighter without any feats. He also, apparently, didn't have any desire to speak to the NPCs, which was especially irksome seeing as how a goodly number of them were either dragons or half-dragons. The party literally met one of the servitors of Bahamut and the VASSAL OF BAHAMUT didn't say anything to him until directly addressed, and even then he just looked sort of sheepish and said "hail Bahamut" (which became a sort of running joke).
It's not like he was new to the game, according to him and his friends he'd been playing for years. I get that some people aren't particularly good at role-playing, and can be hesitant to engage; but it's still irritating when there are situations perfectly tailored for them that they don't take advantage of. But what really irks me is when everyone else has to remind a player of the most basic aspects of their class. "Hey, Robert, maybe you should be detecting evil." "Hey, Robert, seeing as how we're fighting a black dragon, maybe you should be smiting." And it wasn't just once or twice, it was over the course of about three months of weekly sessions. Even a newbie could have grasped paladin mechanics in that amount of time. The party would have wiped at least twice if it hadn't been for people reminding him that his character can do more than hit things with a sword.
When I was DMing the 3.5 module Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, my party was constantly trying (it seemed to me) to get themselves killed. I considered it my job in such attempts to offer a sufficient challenge such that they should reconsider, but I do not make it impossible, nor did they ever reconsider. There were several deaths throughout, but not never a TPK until they went berserk in Lolth's audience chamber full of demon prince avatars.
They stormed the Fane of Eclavdra. Twice. They attacked the extraplanar, artifact-musket-wielding dwarven Santa Clause while being assaulted by dozens of Drow (it Christmas the week before). Two of them murdered dozens of dwarven commoners in a bar (one had an intelligent sword that lusted for dwarven blood, the other just wanted to). I wish I could remember more. I compiled a list before the TPK of every enemy they had made during the course of their adventure.
My tale of a game taking a pointless detour:
This was a PFS scenario from season 0, so it was designed to be completed in 4 hours. Our group of adventurers was supposed to get a macguffin from a warehouse that was guarded inside and out by some thugs. Some of us recommended the direct approach (beat up the guard outside and charge in), but that wasn't good enough for one of the players. He came up with a much more elaborate plan that involved one of the PCs luring away the guard on the door and incapacitating him, while his PC would climb onto the roof, open a skylight and climb inside while the rest of us came in the main door, taking the guards inside by surprise in a pincer maneuver.
The one PC had trouble incapacitating the guard, but finally managed to knock him out. But even worse, the other PC failed a bunch of Climb checks to get onto the roof and then failed a bunch of Disable Device checks to unlock the skylight. Eventually he gave up on trying to disable it and tried sundering it, which took a couple of rounds and alerted all of the guards on the inside.
Coming up with the plan probably took 30 minutes, and rolling all of the failed grapple and skill checks probably took another 30 minutes; at least an hour was used up in any event (in a game that's only supposed to last 4 hours in total). Net result? The same as if we had charged in the front door in the first place.
:-/