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Bumpetty bump bump.
I am going to be playing my Wayang boon character next weekend and would LOOOVE to have a rules clarification for when my GM looks at me sideways when I start throwing out shadow creatures. My first reaction to this when I realized they were giving us a lvl 4 spell with specific limitations was WOW. So, it may make sense if it is a bit tamer than what I hope it to be. Also - would shadow play require at least low light or shadow somewhere to be able to use it?
Here are my thoughts on the matter -
The spell description states that they "resemble" monsters from the Summon Monster list but otherwise work like shadow conjuration. So, that would suggest we are restricted to the list of things we can summon but otherwise they are not restricted by the spell duration of "summon monster" which is 1 round per level.
I see no reason you couldn't also have a summon monster spell active at the same time. One spell would actually be "summon monster" and the other spell would actually be "shadow conjuration". Throw in a "silent image" for extra fun.
Perspective 1:
Since it is a shadow puppet, and if you stopped performing the shadow puppetry, the shadow would disappear. So... even though this works as "shadow conjuration", I could rule that if you stop performing or switch performances, the shadow disappears. This might make more sense without overpowering this archetype.
Perspective 2:
The "shadow conjuration" suggests my shadow puppets are quasi-real, so that once they are made by my magical puppetry, they will persist until an enemy dispatches their 20% hit points. I would presume that you can only have one of these things active at one time, as we are getting into cheese range with the room full of shadowy creatures approach - I perform 5 rounds before entering the room and enter with an army of dire rats! It doesn't feel right.
I imagine starting a performance for shadow puppets, using the harmonic spell feat to switch performance and cast a spell, engage in combat until the puppet goes "poof" and then use harmonic spell to cast a spell and switch back to shadow play. I imagine my wayang wearing a wayfinder on a thong around his neck along with his shadow puppet, so he can easily activate a light source and just take hold of the puppet and have an instant puppet show.
I think the main impact the rules clarification would have is helping me decide which feats to take. If it works like I imagine - I would stick with harmonic spell as my first feat. If it is something that has to be maintained or lose the shadow, I would use lingering performance as a first feat. I am multi-archetyping multi-classing so it may affect the overall effectiveness of the character.
Awesome flavor but we need some help executing please!
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WAYANG PUPPETEERS NEED ANSWERS!!!!
Well, my GM last night decided I had to keep the performance going to keep my shadow conjuration up. I still question this approach, but would like to know the intended mechanic.
Also, I realized the range would be limited by your light source used to backlight the stencil. Using my wayfinder, that gives me a 20 ft range, but could I use a bullseye lantern to get a 60 ft activation?
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1) Like all bardic performances, when you stop using bardic performance, the effect ends. Stop performing = no more shadow creature.
1a) Only if you have an ability that lets you maintain two performances at once, or something that continues a performance effect after you decide to stop maintaining it.
2) Like the actual summon spells, you only get one with summon monster I, but if you're using a higher-level effect, you can get multiples from a lower-level list.
3)
It's limited by your rounds of bardic performance.
4)
I think limiting it to the range of the light source would be pretty harsh (frex, if you only had a torch, it could only go 40 feet, which is lame). I'd limit it to line of effect from the light source to the puppet, which allows a greater range but still fits the theme of "I'm creating this shadow puppet with light from a light source I have, and that light can't turn corners."
Shadow Puppets (Sp): At 1st level, a shadow puppeteer can use bardic performance to create one quasi-real shadowy creature resembling a monster from the summon monster I list. These shadowy creatures otherwise work like shadow conjuration, and targets interacting with them get a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your bard level + your Charisma bonus) to treat them as only 20% real. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, this ability acts like the next higher version of summon monster (summon monster II at 4th level and so on).
This ability in particular is causing me trouble.
1) "can use bardic performance." Does this mean that a bardic performance simply creates, or actually sustains the ability. IE: do i have to keep puppeting to maintain the creature, or can i just create one and move on?
1a) if i can create and move on, can i continue creating more?
2) "one quasi real shadow creature" Does this mean i lose the ability to use a lower level "summon" spell to create more than one creature? If so, why?
Thanks for the help.
Shadow Servant is listed as the equivalent to Unseen Servant, which is a level 1 bard spell that lasts 1 hour/level. Why would a Wayang Shadow Puppeteer waste their precious performance rounds, when they could use a level 1 spell that would give them the same effect for a much much longer period of time? The ambiguity here lies in the fact that it IS listed under Bardic Performances for the Shadow Puppeteer racial archetype. This has to be an oversight, since it is such a low level ability that (along with shadow puppets) replaces inspire courage and competence. Also, a shadow is less invisible than an invisible anything AND relies on proper lighting conditions, so its LESS powerful than the comparable level 1 bard spell
I am currently playing a level 4 Wayang Shadow Puppeteer. I love its RP possibilities, but I do think most of its abilities are sort of not that useful. Shadow Puppets gives you a level 2 bard spell (summon monster II) but with a lot of extra restrictions (lighting, will save, %20 hit-points, using bardic performance.) When it comes down to strategy and defeating a difficult enemy, I always lean towards just using summon monster II, so to avoid giving the enemy a save and locking myself into a specific performance (which lingering performance can help off-set a little bit).
I am enjoying playing my character, but could someone explain to me how playing a Shadow Puppeteer is better than playing a Wayang Bard armed with a Summon Monster II spell and an Unseen Servant Spell? That way you don't have to sacrifice Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence?
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Trading out the inspire courage may not be worth it if you are trying to optimize. The archetype is fun though, and may daw the ire of your GM if used tactically.
I am at level 6 with mine. I have used my puppets as scouts to thwart ambushes, disposable trap triggers, as corks to plug retreat paths, and many other forms of battlefield control, in addition to providing a flanking companion when it may be otherwise impossible. I have been surprised to see how it has played out, as it has been contrary to expectations.
Don't forget your spells you get to add to your spell list as a favored class bonus - wizard illusion spells, such as illusion of calm and color spray.
I am playing mine as a dual archetype with arcane duelist. Due to the way I RP with him I am now thinking of him as a "bardbarian", and a level of barbarian may be fitting, or a rage potion or 2. He currently has an intimidate of 24...
Keep in mind, your shadow puppet is a standard action to summon, not a full round. Next up is summoning it as a move action. Not only that, but I could choose to drop it and summon another one on the opposite side of the battlefield, as a move action. The number of bardic performance rounds has not been an issue as of yet, and I have no feats or otherwise to boost them.
YMMV, but I really like mine. Just make sure you set expectations properly. I generally have to make a point of that so some moron doesn't give me the "whu? You aren't inspiring courage? That's lame..."