Weapon Finesse = you may use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier when rolling to hit.
Agile Weapon = you may use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier when rolling for damage.
So, in a perfect world, you would always need both.
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Can someone please explain the agile wepon property and why its even needed after getting the wepon finesse feat?
The Agile Weapon enhancement lets you add your Dex mod instead of Str to DAMAGE. Weapon Finesse lets you add your Dex mod instead of Str to ATTACK. They're pretty much made to be used together, and you'll see a lot of Dex Magus builds with Agile scimitars.
you'll see a lot of Dex Magus builds with Agile scimitars.
I do not believe this legal? Agile must be placed on a "melee weapon that is usable w/ the Weapon Finesse Feat." The Scimitar is not. And Dervish Dance does NOT make the "weapon" usable w/ the feat.
Dervish Dancers don't use Agile Weapons. They use a single scimitar. The Dervish Dancer feat essentially gives the Agile Weapon enchantment to the wielder of the scimitar as long as that wielder keeps his other hand "free" as well as allowing the scimitar to be finessed.
The Agile Weapon enchantment is for folks who don't want to burn a feat or who don't want to use a scimitar.
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Dervish Dancers don't use Agile Weapons. They use a single scimitar. The Dervish Dancer feat essentially gives the Agile Weapon enchantment to the wielder of the scimitar as long as that wielder keeps his other hand "free" as well as allowing the scimitar to be finessed.
The Agile Weapon enchantment is for folks who don't want to burn a feat or who don't want to use a scimitar.
Yep you're right, I was thinking about our Dex Magus in my game, but he's using Dervish Dance, not Agile. Agile was for his monk's kamas in the previous campaign. :-D
Interesting...
I've got a Two-Weapon Fighter Build I'm playing right now, who wields dual Wakizashi's.
His Dex is +1 higher than his Str, so maybe I should have ignored Strength altogether and just saved up for a +1 weapon on each, so I could use Dex as damage from the start. I already use Weapon Finesse for them.
Still, from the very beginning it's just not possible, especially with two weapons. 4k at level one is laughable.
Interesting...
I've got a Two-Weapon Fighter Build I'm playing right now, who wields dual Wakizashi's.
His Dex is +1 higher than his Str, so maybe I should have ignored Strength altogether and just saved up for a +1 weapon on each, so I could use Dex as damage from the start. I already use Weapon Finesse for them.
Still, from the very beginning it's just not possible, especially with two weapons. 4k at level one is laughable.
16k for two +2 equivalent weapons.
I don't understand what you mean, because it's 2k for a +1 weapon, so two of them would be a 4k bonus for each to have the agile property, as Agile is only a +1 property.
I don't understand what you mean, because it's 2k for a +1 weapon, so two of them would be a 4k bonus for each to have the agile property, as Agile is only a +1 property.
any magic weapon needs a +1 Attack / Damage before it can have any specials.
But weapons(and armor and shields) have to be at least +1 weapons before anything else.
You can have a +1 Longsword, but not a Flaming Longsword for example.
I don't understand what you mean, because it's 2k for a +1 weapon, so two of them would be a 4k bonus for each to have the agile property, as Agile is only a +1 property.any magic weapon needs a +1 Attack / Damage before it can have any specials.
As in, that can't be overwritten?
By my understanding if I was paying for a +1 weapon, I could use that same +1 bonus to instead get a magical property/ability.
I wasn't aware of the fact it has to be at least a +2 before you can pay for/use a +1 slot ability.
That's new to me. :/
A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Yep, gotta have that +1 first.
+1 enchanment is mandatory. All other enchantments come after that.
Your basic Agile weapon is going to be listed as a "+1 Agile (whatever weapon)" and have a cost equal to a +2 weapon, which is 8k.
Hence 16k for the pair.
But if you're buying that +1, surely you can turn it into a +1 propertied weapon straight away?
I've been playing for about a year and haven't been aware of, or even seen these rules (or even knew they existed) before.
Technically then, you need a +2 weapon before you can have a +1 property, a +3 for a +2 and a +6 for a +5?
That's right. You have to the weapon be a +1 Weapon before it can be a +1 Whatever Weapon.
You may, of course, houserule that away.
Ah ok, well even though that sucks a lot more than the rules I thought I were familiar with, thanks all the same.
At least I know I won't be cheating in any way now. :)
Ya you can find the rules here, third paragraph.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
Notice the second last sentence. Also note that if you have, say a +5 enchantment, it could be, say a +3 with flaming burst (+2) or a +5 with no bonus enchantments. Not a +5 with flaming burst, otherwise your getting the enchantments for half price :) Not sure if this is how you saw it, but thats what it sounded like.
This is going to cause some RAI ire, I'm sure, but masterwork quality is sufficient for magical properties.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
That said, I don't see Agile Weapon in either the PRD or the d20pfsrd site. Where is it?
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This is going to cause some RAI ire, I'm sure, but masterwork quality is sufficient for magical properties.
I'm not sure what you mean by "sufficient for magical properties".
That said, I don't see Agile Weapon in either the PRD or the d20pfsrd site. Where is it?
It's in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere on d20pfsrd.com, but it's not on the PRD (since it's not a hardback).
Thanks, jiggy. And I meant sufficient in order to add special qualities to magic items as the +1 enhancement bonus as a prerequisite is added by the weapon being masterwork.
With the end result being a +1 enhancement bonus that is permanent and intrinsically tied to the item and not the wielder as nothing can take away the masterwork-ness of an item. I guess it could be argued that the masterwork enhancement only comes into play per the text (when wielded) versus not having it when it's not wielded.
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Agile+ Elven Curve Blade+ Urban Barbarian+ Elf = Win!!. . I was considering takeing a feat to use the elven curve blade with the agile trait insted of two wepon fighting cus i feel like im laging behind with my damage and it seems like a good way to be able to move and attack without penality how do u do on dammage compared to the rest of ur party?
I'm usually the top non-spellcaster damage dealer in my party, with the advantage of also being stupidly hard to hit. The one thing I found in mid levels is that you can actually push your DEX past what any armor other than Bracers really accomodates, so doing a Bar(Urban Barbarian) 11/ Fit 9 build to 20 can work really well, plus give you a little capacity to switch hit. When you're capable of a 30 DEX, you may as well make sure you've got a decent bow and a couple feats to back it up. That gives you enough Barbarian levels to have Pounce, and enough fighter levels to have weapon training in your ranged and melee weapons and wear a couple light armors that will fully accomodate your high DEX.
Don't forget that Power Attack will still add damage when used with a Finesse weapon. I played a Halfling once with an Elven Curved Blade and Power Attack, and he was brutal.
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This is going to cause some RAI ire, I'm sure, but masterwork quality is sufficient for magical properties.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.That said, I don't see Agile Weapon in either the PRD or the d20pfsrd site. Where is it?
Wrong. Look the RAW:
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
The requirement is for the weapon to have the enhancement, a masterwork weapon give an enchantment to the attack woll.
It's still a +1 enhancement bonus. The rule doesn't restrict the type of enhancement bonus.
So, the weapon grants it but doesn't have it? That doesn't make much sense.
And, yes, Diego just tried to differentiate an 'enhancement bonus' from an 'enhancement bonus to attack rolls.'
If it did in fact work that way (masterwork being enough), then why don't 3.5 or PFRPG adventures contain weapons with a special property but without a +1 bonus on a regular basis? I've certainly never seen one in a published adventure.
There is no Masterwork weapon with a magical property anywhere in any published material ever, including 3rd party material, all the way back to 3.0.
What you are advocating is a blatant misinterpretation of the rules. If it were true it would have come up by now. Every designer ever thinks you are wrong. Do you really think you know better than they do?
As I said, my statement was sure to bring about RAI responses. However, RAW, I don't see how it can't work.
Do you really think you know better than they do?
No, but I do know how to read. The rules ask for a +1 enhancement bonus and the masterwork quality grants it.
To attack rolls, not the weapon itself. The +1 enhancement to weapons is what the +1 to attack and damage rolls is.
I understand the difference between the two insofar as what they apply to in reference to attack and damage rolls. However, it's still a +1 enhancement bonus. I don't see how 'the weapon itself' having the bonus has any functional difference from the fact that anyone can pick up a masterwork weapon and benefit from it's +1 bonus. The fact it can be used by anyone, even those who are not proficient with it, and it confers that bonus is any way different from a magical enhancement which does the same thing. Furthermore the rules describe them as the same type of bonus so they are the same. The only two differences between the two is a) they don't stack and b) the masterwork bonus only applies to attacks.
If you really want to know what the developers intended, then make a post or a thread and FAQ it. Then you'll know the RAI and RAW.
Since your fellow players can't seem to convince you Masterwork won't cut it, we might as just wait for the devs to answer.
I do think I'll make a thread. Thanks.
lets beat a dead horse
Masterwork = +1 enhancement to attack
Magic Weapon = +1 (at least) enhancement to attack& damage = Enhancement Bonus of weapon
A masterwork weapon in NOT a magic weapon. The rules say the weapon must have an "Enhancement Bonus", this is NOTthe same as a masterwork weapon, to be made with any ability. I don't see how this confusing.
Buri: this kind of parsing the rules is what gives rules lawyers a bad name. The rules intend for the following requirements: Masterwork weapon with a +1 magical enhancement bonus and THEN you can give it special abilities.
Masterwork clearly provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attacks. But in and of itself it is NOT a +1 enhancement bonus.
- Gauss
Buri: I suggest you ask James Jacobs HERE
- Gauss
Actually, masterwork is a +1 enhancement bonus. This is an enhancement bonus. Therefore, it satisfies the rule.
I've made a thread for this here, though, so I don't hijack this thread anymore.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz67s2?Is-masterwork-sufficient-to-add-magical#1
Buri: I suggest you ask James Jacobs HERE
- Gauss
Done. Thanks for the suggestion.
Buri: this kind of parsing the rules is what gives rules lawyers a bad name. The rules intend for the following requirements: Masterwork weapon with a +1 magical enhancement bonus and THEN you can give it special abilities.
Masterwork clearly provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attacks. But in and of itself it is NOT a +1 enhancement bonus.
- Gauss
I don't see why. I would think any reasonable person reading the text cover to cover could easily spot this. "Oh, I need a +1 enhancement bonus. Masterwork confers that but the magical enhancement also provides a bonus to damage. Well, I'm not really too concerned about damage because the class I'm playing really isn't about damage and masterwork is 1,700 gp cheaper so I'll just stick with masterwork and spend my gold pieces on those wands I've been wanting." This is a perfectly sound conversation I could see someone debating within themselves.
Is it bad because the pieces of text are far apart and people might 'forget' and default to the enhancement bonus listed in the magic items chapter? This is lawyering? I simply see it as using the text provided. Look in my thread but I show that the dev's clearly were thinking about these two interacting but they don't strike masterwork as an option in how that enhancement bonus is gained. Why not?
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Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Item Creation)
You can create magic armor, shields, and weapons.
Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
i repeat:
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide.
i'm going to have to side with Buri until someone offers better evidence (meaning clearer rules).
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As I said, my statement was sure to bring about RAI responses. However, RAW, I don't see how it can't work.
Do you really think you know better than they do?No, but I do know how to read. The rules ask for a +1 enhancement bonus and the masterwork quality grants it.
It doesn't though. Wielding a MW weapon grants a +1 enhancement bonus to your attack rolls, it does not give the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. It is neither RAW or RAI. One could even argue that RAW it is the act of wielding a masterwork weapon which lends the enhancement bonus to attack rolls, due to the excellent weighting, craftsmanship, etc. A masterwork sword dropped on someone's foot is no more dangerous than any other sword, while a magic sword is mor elikely to take your foot off by its own nature.
See Diego's post earlier in the thread.
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If we really want to micro-parse the rules, then consider this.
- There are enhancements to attack, and there are enhancements to damage.
- A special ability on a weapon requires at least a +1 enhancement bonus on the weapon
- Most (all?) of the special abilities are enhancements to damage
- A Masterwork weapon does not have an enhancement to damage
Therefore a Masterwork weapon with no other enhancement bonus can not have a damage-enhancing special ability applied.