In the case of that stat-block I posted I had used every single gold piece of her treasure on items she could use. I was also very abstract when interpreting the categories as to what was a weapon and what was protection. I went pretty far outside of those guidelines in order to give her items she could use that fit her theme.
In the case of that stat-block I posted I had used every single gold piece of her treasure on items she could use. I was also very abstract when interpreting the categories as to what was a weapon and what was protection. I went pretty far outside of those guidelines in order to give her items she could use that fit her theme.
You should also keep in mind that the use of the monster is also a factor. If the monster is a caster(uses SLA or spells) as its primary source of offense the it makes sense for it to not do the damage listed on the table.
How are you intending to use the monster and how did it fall short?
Drider BBEG fightDrow Cleric 10-Battle field control, buffing, and healing. CR 9
Have this one summoning before the players show up. A high perception check will help if there is a battle that is not too far from where the fighter will take place.Drider-Inquisitor or Antipaladin. CR 11
The inquistor probably falls under the skill category so it takes two levels of Inquisitor to account for 1 CR bump, but since inquisitors can be made to fight well I would check the numbers to make sure you don't overwhelm the players.Drow Sorcerer full caster 10 CR 9
total CR=13
I decided to take your advice and give her some help for the big fight. I was wondering how you calculated that total CR?
Was it (Cleric) CR 9 +(Sorcerer) CR 9 = CR 11
and (Cleric & Sorcerer) CR 11 + (Drider) CR 11 = CR 13?
I knew you could use those quick calculations for multiples of the same creature (same strengths and weaknesses) but it doesn't seem fair with different creatures since they round each other out more.
You should also keep in mind that the use of the monster is also a factor. If the monster is a caster(uses SLA or spells) as its primary source of offense the it makes sense for it to not do the damage listed on the table.How are you intending to use the monster and how did it fall short?
I originally wanted her to be able to solo a 10th level party and provide an epic challenge, but after the feedback I received I can see she will need some help. I'd rather add some helpers to the fight then change her around much so I'm using ideas from you and Ciretose and Nicos to give her some help. Probably one Drow Cleric (Demoniac was I think the archetype Ciretose linked) and one Drow Antipaladin.
I really pictured her blasting, dispelling and debuffing a lot.
You still use the same formula. Another way, and the correct way by the book is to use an XP budget. It will still get you the same monsters.
It also helps to make challenging encounters when you have monsters that synergize well. Not all CR's of the same number will be equal either. The reason I suggest using more monsters instead of one powerful monsters is because more monsters are generally more difficult to deal with. That one CR 13 monster can be easily overwhelmed by action economy, because it can only do one thing on its turn, while 3 monsters have more actions they can take. That is why the party normally has the advantage against one powerful monster.
a drider can have a dozen of various spider henchies to make the encounter interesting, get two other driders for support, one should be an assassin using spider poisons
send the assassin with d4+1 spiders ahead, so it counts as a separate encounter, have the spiders act as distraction for the assassin as it targets the most "dangerous" PC meanwhile for a fast kill (dangerous being the char as per opinion of the assassin)
Drider BBEG fightDrow Cleric 10-Battle field control, buffing, and healing. CR 9
Have this one summoning before the players show up. A high perception check will help if there is a battle that is not too far from where the fighter will take place.Drider-Inquisitor or Antipaladin. CR 11
The inquistor probably falls under the skill category so it takes two levels of Inquisitor to account for 1 CR bump, but since inquisitors can be made to fight well I would check the numbers to make sure you don't overwhelm the players.Drow Sorcerer full caster 10 CR 9
total CR=13
I decided to take your advice and give her some help for the big fight. I was wondering how you calculated that total CR?
Was it (Cleric) CR 9 +(Sorcerer) CR 9 = CR 11
and (Cleric & Sorcerer) CR 11 + (Drider) CR 11 = CR 13?I knew you could use those quick calculations for multiples of the same creature (same strengths and weaknesses) but it doesn't seem fair with different creatures since they round each other out more.
Grimmy, you may not have noticed, but Pathfinder supports "budget encounter design". In other words, find the CR you want. That shows how much XP you have for your budget. For example, CR 13 is 25,600 XP. So you could have 2 CR 11s (12,800 XP each), 4 CR 9s, or some other combination that adds up to about 25,600 XP. 256 CR 1/4 kobolds are a CR 13 encounter as well. >:)
I just didn't realize budget encounter design yielded the same results as the quick table. I thought the quick table was only for multiples of the same creature. Just an assumption I made, wrong I guess.
You should also keep in mind that the use of the monster is also a factor. If the monster is a caster(uses SLA or spells) as its primary source of offense the it makes sense for it to not do the damage listed on the table.How are you intending to use the monster and how did it fall short?
I originally wanted her to be able to solo a 10th level party and provide an epic challenge, but after the feedback I received I can see she will need some help. I'd rather add some helpers to the fight then change her around much so I'm using ideas from you and Ciretose and Nicos to give her some help. Probably one Drow Cleric (Demoniac was I think the archetype Ciretose linked) and one Drow Antipaladin.
I really pictured her blasting, dispelling and debuffing a lot.
I'd recommend some giant vermin. Sine Pathfinder's bestiary is a bit fail when it comes to stuff like animals and vermin, you might want to just use the 3.5 Statblocks for monstrous spiders, and just adjust their poisons to be 1d2/x rounds instead of all at once. This gives a very wide variety of great giant spiders to use as minions. Plus, giant spiders are pretty low on the CR scale, but make for fun and interesting minions!
For example, spiders can spin webs and entangle your party from a distance, and set webs throughout a room or area that require a DC 20 Perception check to notice. The entangling is a ranged touch attack, and can be applied multiple times. A few small or medium giant spiders and your party may spend the entire battle with the entangled condition. Likewise, spiders can be a little scary if your drider is buffing them, since each bite has at minimum a 5% chance to deal some poison damage. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
A CR 13 encounter with a CR 11 version of your drider, plus 64 small monstrous spiders would make for an interesting encounter. Waves after waves after waves of small spiders, raining down on your players, while they try to navigate through a chamber with a labyrinth of webs (if they rush to quickly, they might get stuck in a web they didn't see, since intentionally searching for the webs is a move action). If the PCs charge right in, they might end up stuck and good.
Of course, each spider would only have about 4 HP, but if you send them in waves, they can make good fodder. Plus, an entangled party is a slow party. 1/2 speed, -4 to Dex, -2 to attacks, and a DC 15 + spell level Concentration DC to cast while covered in the webs. It takes at minimum a full-round action to attempt to break free, and if you're hit with multiple webs, you'd just be wasting your time. If you wanted to really put the fear of god in 'em, you could replace some of the small monstrous spiders with a few spider swarms that move about through the battle as well. Swarms scare parties pretty good, since they deal auto-damage and force saves vs poison and nausea each round (low saves, but you can always roll a 1).
I just didn't realize budget encounter design yielded the same results as the quick table. I thought the quick table was only for multiples of the same creature. Just an assumption I made, wrong I guess.
It happens to the best of us. Don't sweat it. (^_^)
Don't be afraid to push your players. They are often more resiliant than a GM gives them credit for, plus it makes them better players every time they encounter a new difficulty. If things don't go well find out why so that the next time they handle it better.
a drider can have a dozen of various spider henchies to make the encounter interesting, get two other driders for support, one should be an assassin using spider poisons
I will definitely consider having an assassin as a separate encounter.
For the final encounter Im thinking of something like this:
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Cr 14 Total
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Advanced Fiendish Huge Drider Sorcerer 5 (CR 13)
Drow Cleric Demonic Apostle 9 (CR 8)
Drow Antipaladin 7/ Demoniac 2 (CR 8)
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35200 XP Total, just under for CR. Maybe have the location prebuffed with unhallow and/or darkness and lots of webs to tip the scales.
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You should be using the NPC gear to equip the drider. If that does not bring her up to standard you may have to invoke GM fiat. The rules are not perfect. Sometimes NPC gear can take you beyond the standard. In that case use what you need, and have the rest be less useful. Now despite my saying the goal is to match the chart you should remember I was debating from a rules/intention PoV. When it comes to playing the game your goal is to make the monster a good challenge, chart be damned. :)When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.Heh. I should probably just keep my mouth shut on this one. (^-^)"
Also the real issue is the that it suffers the same multiclassing problem a PC full caster does, as that is functionally what you are doing here.
The sorcerer spells aren't high enough level to threaten a high level party, but the sorcerer levels reduce the combat effectiveness for that level.
Catch 22.
When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.She also has 5 PC levels.
This is where I get confused about the point you make, just like I was when we talked about a Goblin Bard 1 vs a Goblin Warrior 1, I didn't think you really ever answered Aratrok fully.
If my Drider had 6 levels of Adept instead of 5 levels of Sorcerer, she would have the same CR, but you think somehow she wouldn't need her gear as badly? Give a monster PC levels and suddenly they need all their treasure equipped, otherwise no? I don't get it.
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On a separate note did you notice I'm using the Cleric archetype and the Prestige class you linked for my big boss fight? Thanks for the advice.
as for the encounter with the assassin, have him actually try to properly kill a caster, no need for stalling it, even if the assassin does quickly but just doesn't get the death attack through the players are likely to quickly massacre it, so don't hold back
if a PC lies dead the encounter from perspective of the main drider counts as a success, even if the assassin was sacrificed. Also, don't place it days ahead or miles away, the assassin attack should happen just before the main area of the drider
Also, don't place it days ahead or miles away, the assassin attack should happen just before the main area of the drider
Yeah I figured that's what you meant.
TBH I don't really want a player to have to sit out his fight, it will be something they built up to for a quite a while.
So assassin strike with scroll of raise dead sounds ok to me if I can explain why it's just sitting there.
When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.She also has 5 PC levels.This is where I get confused about the point you make, just like I was when we talked about a Goblin Bard 1 vs a Goblin Warrior 1, I didn't think you really ever answered Aratrok fully.
If my Drider had 6 levels of Adept instead of 5 levels of Sorcerer, she would have the same CR, but you think somehow she wouldn't need her gear as badly? Give a monster PC levels and suddenly they need all their treasure equipped, otherwise no? I don't get it.
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On a separate note did you notice I'm using the Cleric archetype and the Prestige class you linked for my big boss fight? Thanks for the advice.
The monster as is should be able to stand on its own*. When you add class levels you change the dynamics of how the monster works. The drow is a combat monster, and would be better served with combat based classes. Giving it caster levels that match thematically, but are not better mechanically is also an issue. That is why I suggest cleric levels earlier since the cleric spells do make it a better combatant, while the sorcerer spells do not. Making it an antipaladin would really work well I think, but I know that does not fit your story. You may be better off using the drider as a minion, and replacing it with a drow as the main bad guy. Just give the drider enough levels to make it a CR 9 combatant. The other CR 9 can be another caster type, that will vary depending on what is needed to round things out.
*At its normal CR against a lower level group.
TBH I don't really want a player to have to sit out his fight, it will be something they built up to for a quite a while.
So assassin strike with scroll of raise dead sounds ok to me if I can explain why it's just sitting there.
well, maybe the chest could be planned for a deal with an other npc, sitting there to be transported as an offering of sorts, or payment
in this case consider a weakling group of d6+1 spiders to kill off for the team without the dead character before it gets to the scroll, just to have a feeling added of really being dead/missing out
@Wraithstrike and Ciretose:
Driders have effective class levels as one of 3 full caster types. You choose whether your Drider casts as a Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer. When you add levels, they stack with the CL built into the Drider. So my goal was to bump up this monster without changing the dynamic as you say. The basic Drider is a CR 7 who casts as a 5th level Sorcerer. I ended up with a CR 13 who casts as an 11th level Sorcerer. The same 2 level gap.
As you say Driders also have tough combat potential out of the box so I tried to scale that proportionally using templates. I don't know if I succeeded or failed here. Maybe it would have been better if I used the Giant Creature template instead of the Size Increase template, for the same CR bump.
Anyway at this point I'm ok with her not being a good solo fight and I'm making up for her weaknesses with two Drow who will fight by her side. I took all of your advice into strong consideration, I just applied it to her minions instead of directly to her. So thanks for the advice I learned a lot about encounter design. This encounter level is at the upper limit of my comfort zone so I definitely benefitted from the advice.
consider making the drider a Witch instead, a White-haired one
consider making the drider a Witch instead, a White-haired one
After I asked for help with the Drider and everyone gave tons of advice, I felt like a jerk when I realized I was actually stuck on keeping her the way she was. Luckily I was able to use everyones advice to build other combatants into the encounter so none of the ideas were a waste after all.
But as for the drider herself, she's staying a sorcerer, for better or worse.
I may make a more powerful version of her that she can become if the PC's fail to stop her now. If I do that it will add cleric levels most likely.
Incidentally she is unusual for Drow, she has dark hair.
I meant the archetype
but yea, make her come backs stronger later if she can flee
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When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.She also has 5 PC levels.This is where I get confused about the point you make, just like I was when we talked about a Goblin Bard 1 vs a Goblin Warrior 1, I didn't think you really ever answered Aratrok fully.
If my Drider had 6 levels of Adept instead of 5 levels of Sorcerer, she would have the same CR, but you think somehow she wouldn't need her gear as badly? Give a monster PC levels and suddenly they need all their treasure equipped, otherwise no? I don't get it.
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On a separate note did you notice I'm using the Cleric archetype and the Prestige class you linked for my big boss fight? Thanks for the advice.
I believe the stat blocks in the book are intended to be at the CR listed, period, full stop.
So the Goblin listed on pg 156 of the bestiary is intended to be a 1/3rd CR creature as is. It is a goblin warrior, which is an NPC class, which is less than a PC class.
"Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.
Table 2–4 gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster’s abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature’s CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key."
So that Goblin Bard is higher CR than the Goblin Warrior. It lost an NPC level (not key) and gained a class level. This made it a 1/2 CR creature and entitled it to more gear.
Your Drider is listed as a combat role. It's spell casting is secondary to combat according to Appendix 13 in the bestiary. So your levels of sorcerer should only count 1/2 until it gets up to the CR 7. So doing half asleep math you should get 8 levels of full caster, not 5. (Level 1-6 only count half.)
So actually you should have more levels of sorcerer (or cleric), but the same amount of WBL as that is based off of the total CR.
If you look at pg 294, the 1/3 Goblin has appropriate gear cost for 1/3 (85gp) and the 1/2 Goblin has appropriate for a 1/2 CR (135).
The gear is incorporated into the build, and is basically the treasure.
In other words, the Devs figured that part out when they built the creature.
The question at it's root is if you believe the Devs meant for the monsters as written to be of the CR level listed. If you do, any changes you make to them that would dramatically change them could also change the CR.
According to this page driders are in the combat category.
I do see that they do have innate caster levels though which does mean the 5 caster levels add to the CR. As 11 level casters they should be able to hold their own.
Looking back at your drider you should have boosted the ability scores which would make her a better caster if you wanted to give her caster levels. Instead you boosted the one which gave her a better melee combatant.
That is part of the issue also.
Adding Class Levels
Of all the methods of advancing a monster, adding class levels requires the most adjudication and careful comparison. Some classes truly add to the power and abilities of some monster types, while others do not. For example, adding levels of barbarian to a hill giant can be a great addition, whereas adding levels of sorcerer is less useful. When adding class levels to a creature, take the following three steps.
Step 1: Determine Creature's RoleWhen adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills. There are three basic roles into which a creature might fall. A creature can fall into more than one role if its abilities are diverse.
Combat: This creature is designed to be good at melee or ranged combat with a weapon or its natural weapons. In either case, these monsters have a number of feats and abilities to enhance their combat prowess (or are good simply by nature of their Hit Dice and ability scores). If a creature does not possess many spells, special abilities, or skills, it is a combat monster.
Most animals, constructs, dragons, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin fall into this role, as do some creatures of all the other types.
Spell: Spell creatures possess a large number of spells that allow them to attack or harass their enemies. These creatures usually have lower hit points and relatively weak attacks as compared to the averages for creatures of their CR. Note that creatures that only possess spell-like abilities do not fall into this role, and are usually considered combat or special.
Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Your casting drider has a strength of 28, and a charisma of 22. Those should be switched. Her minions can provide the damage dealing while she sits safely in the back. Summons will also help, especially if you haste them. :)
ah right I forgot, even if you stick with Sorcerer consider Battle Sorcerer as alternative, then it can wear light armor that could be enchanted to grant additional edge in fights
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So now we have 8 levels of cleric, 5ish levels of sorcerish stuff...and with that Demonic Apostle, with 7 levels you now have a Quasit, can make your allies rage with your channel spell.
Hell, for SnG take Mystic Thuerge for that last Cleric level and now you have 6 level of sorcerer spells with 8 levels of cleric spells with the rage and quasit.
That is a Boss :)
Looking back at your drider you should have boosted the ability scores which would make her a better caster if you wanted to give her caster levels. Instead you boosted the one which gave her a better melee combatant.
Ah this explains a lot. Actually I gave her the basic monster stat array and never boosted anything for the class levels. The stat boosts you see are all from the templates, and they are attached to certain stats. The templates I used don't allow you to put them wherever you want.
But from what you have told me I can see now that I'm allowed to change her to the Heroic Stat array and assign the points where I want. This goes along way towards explaining why my monster looked weak, her spell DC's will be a bit higher with another 4 points in Cha.
Edit: Effectively +3 to Cha not +4, because I will lose the +1 from Basic Monster Array and gain the +4 from Heroic Array
Edit 2: I guess the stat bonuses from adding class levels are not the same thing as Heroic Stat Array. Heroic Array is {15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8}. So I guess the bonuses for adding class-levels are something unique? In this case they stack with the Basic Monster stat array and net me a +4 to Cha after all?
Looking back at your drider you should have boosted the ability scores which would make her a better caster if you wanted to give her caster levels. Instead you boosted the one which gave her a better melee combatant.
Ah this explains a lot. Actually I gave her the basic monster stat array and never boosted anything for the class levels. The stat boosts you see are all from the templates, and they are attached to certain stats. The templates I used don't allow you to put them wherever you want.
But from what you have told me I can see now that I'm allowed to change her to the Heroic Stat array and assign the points where I want. This goes along way towards explaining why my monster looked weak, her spell DC's will be a bit higher with another 4 points in Cha.
If you want to go by the rules then you do use the monster stats from the book but then you use " Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" also. <--That was right beside what I bolded in my last post.
At least one of those +4's should to go charisma. If you want melee to be her secondary thing then the other +4 can also go to strength. Giving her the 1 anti-paladin level instead of the fiendish template will boost her saves and still give her smite. If the main melee guy in the group is the target of the smite then her AC against him also goes up.
The smite will also really increase her chances to hit.
Yup I definitely didn't miss the part you bolded, I just couldn't quote it because when I hit reply it cuts off the end of your post. But I get what you meant 100%, I forgot to add the {+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2} which I think is Heroic Stat Array. What you see in the stat block I posted is {+1, +1, +1, +0, +0, +0}, the Basic Monster Stat Array.
In my defense, I was smart enough to put one of those +1's in Cha, and I also gave her a headband. It just wasn't quite enough. Now her spell DC's will be 1 higher anyway. I'll put another +4 in Dex to help her AC and hit with rays.
Fiendish has to stay, it's a huge part of her conceptually. She's definitely native to the abyss. Plus I'm not ready to kiss all of her DR, SR and her best Energy Resistances goodbye.
If you want to go by the rules then you do use the monster stats from the book but then you use " Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" also. <--That was right beside what I bolded in my last post.
OK I gotcha now, I see what you're saying. It's not a different stat array, I keep the monster stats and add these adjustments. Right?
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Got my answer on Monsters below CR 1 with NPC Gear!
It should have proportionally less. If a CR 1 creature should have 260 gp, a CR 1/2 creature should have 130 gp, while a CR 1/3 creature should have 86 gp. In fact, they should probably have less gp than that since they're mooks anyway. Up to the GM.
How much NPC Gear is a creature supposed to have if it's CR is a fraction?Table: NPC Gear begins at Level 1, but the Bestiary says to use the monsters CR as it's effective level.
Got my answer on Monsters below CR 1 with NPC Gear!
It should have proportionally less. If a CR 1 creature should have 260 gp, a CR 1/2 creature should have 130 gp, while a CR 1/3 creature should have 86 gp. In fact, they should probably have less gp than that since they're mooks anyway. Up to the GM.
How much NPC Gear is a creature supposed to have if it's CR is a fraction?Table: NPC Gear begins at Level 1, but the Bestiary says to use the monsters CR as it's effective level.
And if they are classed NPCs, such as goblins?
Just asking, because a 1st level human warrior has 260 gp and is CR 1/3.
EDIT: Incidentally, I was pretty sure this is what you did for those who didn't have NPC gear. For example, the mite. I posted a mite who is CR 1/4 with standard treasure, so the treasure value I had him listed with was 65 gp.
I could have put more specifics in my question I guess.
OK I gotcha now, I see what you're saying. It's not a different stat array, I keep the monster stats and add these adjustments. Right?
If you want to go by the rules then you do use the monster stats from the book but then you use " Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" also. <--That was right beside what I bolded in my last post.
correct :)
I always give NPC(goblins as an example) monsters by their class levels. The intent may have been to account for CR, but I can't find a quote for it in the book.
correct :)OK I gotcha now, I see what you're saying. It's not a different stat array, I keep the monster stats and add these adjustments. Right?
If you want to go by the rules then you do use the monster stats from the book but then you use " Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" also. <--That was right beside what I bolded in my last post.
After I added those stat adjustments you pointed out her numbers are lining up perfect with CR Table.
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After I added those stat adjustments you pointed out her numbers are lining up perfect with CR Table.correct :)OK I gotcha now, I see what you're saying. It's not a different stat array, I keep the monster stats and add these adjustments. Right?
If you want to go by the rules then you do use the monster stats from the book but then you use " Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" also. <--That was right beside what I bolded in my last post.
Add in the extra spell levels from Drider being combat key rather than casting key, and she is right there with other CR 13 creatures.
Nope the sorcerer levels do count as key unfortunately because they stack with Driders casting abilities.
just tell us how it all plays out when the event/scene ingame happened
Thanks Ryu, I will, it will be a while they are 4th level now.
By the way I'm working on the Erinyes what do you think of Inquisitor levels?
Now I am tinking drider oracle.
Nope the sorcerer levels do count as key unfortunately because they stack with Driders casting abilities.Cleric levels would still count at 1/2 as they don't stack with the ones possessed by the creature.
Right, that's true because I chose Sorcerer for the base Drider. They are a funny case, you have to choose whether they cast as Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard, and then additional levels of that type count as key but they stack for determining caster level.
I have to admit the Demonic Apostle you linked is tempting to add. For now though I decided to have a Drow Demonic Apostle backing her up. 9th level so the channels damage & sicken opponents, while raging allies. Rock!
Nope the sorcerer levels do count as key unfortunately because they stack with Driders casting abilities.Cleric levels would still count at 1/2 as they don't stack with the ones possessed by the creature.Right, that's true because I chose Sorcerer for the base Drider. They are a funny case, you have to choose whether they cast as Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard, and then additional levels of that type count as key but they stack for determining caster level.
I have to admit the Demonic Apostle you linked is tempting to add. For now though I decided to have a Drow Demonic Apostle backing her up. 9th level so the channels damage & sicken opponents, while raging allies. Rock!
If you have the opportunity to fit an antipaladin in there somewhere, antipaladins are the best debuff-bombers in the game. If they are within 10 ft. of your target, the target gets -2 to all their saves. Then the Paladin can Intimidate, which is another -2 to all saves, then the Paladin can land bestow curse via their Hand of Corruption and inflict another -4 to all attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. That's -8 to all saves. At high levels, you also risk a third helper casting limited wish to give an unlucky target another -7 to their saves. With a -14 to their next saving throw, somebody somewhere somehow is going to be a lawn ornament. :P