I just don't see her as EK. I would rather give up on melee then go EK. In my mind she's already a fiendish sorceror.
I appreciate the advice though its definitely good to know that would get the job done.
No worries, it is your vision.
This may sound hokey, but tell me a little about the BBEG's history and background. Once we understand that we can then figure out how to make the most bad ass version of that possible.
Basically the drow demon goddess wants to meddle on the prime material plane, but there's a barrier stopping her from granting her clerics high level spells. This fiendish drider is almost the manifestation of her on the prime material plane. It's a vessel she can act through, but it's much weaker then it could be if the barrier was down. She wants to keep her little avatar behind the scenes, while it works to take control of the watchtowers and the ley lines that keep the barrier up. So if the PC's can confront this manifestation while is weak, it'll be a big setback. That's the general idea.
That's why I can't see cleric levels, because she wouldn't worship anything but herself. And I can't see a prepared caster either.
I don't want to seem like I'm closed for ideas now after I asked for help, but I mostly just wanted to know how she measured up and why so everything you guys have already said is illuminating. Honestly I'd be more concerned if she was overpowered then under, the setting is low-magic so the PC's will be at half WBL.
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That's why I can't see cleric levels, because she wouldn't worship anything but herself. And I can't see a prepared caster either.
I don't want to seem like I'm closed for ideas now after I asked for help, but I mostly just wanted to know how she measured up and why so everything you guys have already said is illuminating. Honestly I'd be more concerned if she was overpowered then under, the setting is low-magic so the PC's will be at half WBL.
I think she would be fine for a low magic, and if she is a latent demon lord it makes sense. You might want to pick up the Book of the Damned PDF, as it might have good suggestions.
This is also James Jacobs wheelhouse, so I bet if you posted your idea in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread, he'd respond with a ton of good ideas.
Damn that is sick, I'll use that for her henchmen to give her some help like wraithstrike suggested. I guess you were right about options being good, you never know when you need them.
I thought James Jacobs wheelhouse was dinosaurs.
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.it seems weak. Anybody who clese her in to melee will have a good fort save. And probably a good Ac, and it is just 1d3 of damage.
If you really want to make her a threat in melee try adding 2 levels of antipaladin and then eldrith knight.
Thanks Nicos I'm going to try your idea on another villain who is an Erinyes.
I think she looks pretty good. I do agree with Ciretose that Eldritch Knight is a very good prestige class for her (fluff as you desire it, it doesn't actually have to be a "knight"), but if that's out, I'd suggest figuring out exactly what you want her to do, or what you expect her to do, and go from there. Are you wanting her to dominate with arcane power, martial prowess, trickery and deception, or perhaps something entirely different like minions?
As for cleric levels, why wouldn't an avatar of a god be able to support cleric levels? The default game says you can be a cleric of an ideal. If she's a goddess, then she can be a cleric of herself! (If that sounds weird, most of the published deities in 3.x have cleric levels and their own domains).
Like Ciretose said, hum a few bars about her, and we might be able to help out some more! :)
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@Wraithstrike - I'd buy the Ghaele argument if it wasn't for the fact the Ghaele is over the CR chart with a mundane weapon. The +4 weapon is gravy. Why is it gravy? Because the Ghaele's own natural abilities soar her above the chart numbers without the weapon. You could take the Ghaele's magic weapon away, or replace it with a +3 holy instead of +2 holy and still would notice no change in CR. In fact, even with a mundane sword she exceeds the chart.
I thought she could get magic circle against good up, open with quickened true strike with enervation, summon lots of spiders to spam webs, dominates a big dumb fighter type, smite good with her scorching ray, more blasts, and if they close with her she can blind fight under cover of deeper darkness.
She need an 8th level spot to quicken enervation. Did you mean Ray of enfeeblement?
Summoning is also a full round action. If I were the PC's I would use ranged attackes to force concentration checks. I don't what your PC's are using, but if you want deeper darkness to block darkvision I would have the illumination be low enough that deeper darkness drops it to complete darkness so that darkvision won't work.
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od be able to support cleric levels? The default game says you can be a cleric of an ideal. If she's a goddess, then she can be a cleric of herself! (If that sounds weird, most of the published deities in 3.x have cleric levels and their own domains).
Ashiel is right. This is the way I would go with it if she is actually a latent Demon Lord.
I think she looks pretty good. I do agree with Ciretose that Eldritch Knight is a very good prestige class for her (fluff as you desire it, it doesn't actually have to be a "knight"), but if that's out, I'd suggest figuring out exactly what you want her to do, or what you expect her to do, and go from there. Are you wanting her to dominate with arcane power, martial prowess, trickery and deception, or perhaps something entirely different like minions?
As for cleric levels, why wouldn't an avatar of a god be able to support cleric levels? The default game says you can be a cleric of an ideal. If she's a goddess, then she can be a cleric of herself! (If that sounds weird, most of the published deities in 3.x have cleric levels and their own domains).
Like Ciretose said, hum a few bars about her, and we might be able to help out some more! :)
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@Wraithstrike - I'd buy the Ghaele argument if it wasn't for the fact the Ghaele is over the CR chart with a mundane weapon. The +4 weapon is gravy. Why is it gravy? Because the Ghaele's own natural abilities soar her above the chart numbers without the weapon. You could take the Ghaele's magic weapon away, or replace it with a +3 holy instead of +2 holy and still would notice no change in CR. In fact, even with a mundane sword she exceeds the chart.
For the Ghaele I am just looking at the numbers. I can probably pick something that has less options to make the same argument. I think the Ice Devil has a weapon. I have not checked the stats yet though.
Like Ciretose said, hum a few bars about her, and we might be able to help out some more! :)
I don't know that much about her. She was not of noble birth. She had raven dark hair unlike any other drow. She was aloof, indifferent to slights against her. Cruel and perverse in her own unique way, she targeted those she was fond of with her depredations while those who tried to shame and injure her felt the chill of her disinterest. She was fond of swimming in dark pools of volcanic rock. She set fires and trained her eyes to bear the light. When she was twelve years old she wandered into the sweat-cave where the crones were drinking the tea of ages, and disrobed as they anticipated the vision of Arachne. Feeling the rancid steam entering her pours, she drew the silver dagger from the sacramental bowl and scrawled crude tattoos into the pallid flesh of the incapacitated crones. By the time they recovered the faculty of locomotion she had fled into the corners of the air, dissipating with the pungent eldritch mists. In what would be her seventeenth year the surface raiders returned below with word of a sultry nightshade maiden who had captured the heart of the High-Elven Prince of Aramour in the Land of Three Moons where only the fair folk tread. Soon she descended with a relic of elven magic, a dial which tracked the movement of the stars. "With this," she said, "we shall blot out the light and dance again beneath the arches of the trees." The elders paid her no mind, arranging a marriage for her with her sister, who's skin had a golden cast like mineral that shimmered with the silver of her hair. They hid the star-dial in an obelisk where it could not be scried, and moved their home across the cavernous expanse to the fortified abode of their forbears, lest the Sons and Daughters of the yellow moon seek to rekindle their ages old war...
I thought she could get magic circle against good up, open with quickened true strike with enervation, summon lots of spiders to spam webs, dominates a big dumb fighter type, smite good with her scorching ray, more blasts, and if they close with her she can blind fight under cover of deeper darkness.She need an 8th level spot to quicken enervation. Did you mean Ray of enfeeblement?
Summoning is also a full round action. If I were the PC's I would use ranged attackes to force concentration checks. I don't what your PC's are using, but if you want deeper darkness to block darkvision I would have the illumination be low enough that deeper darkness drops it to complete darkness so that darkvision won't work.
No I meant just quicken true strike to make sure the enervation hits, I have no idea if that is a good tactic it just struck me as a nasty opener.
They'd be on her turf so dark already.
Honestly I can see now that she needs help like you said, she can't solo.
Note that the erinyes would need more levles of sorcerer though and By RAW antipaladin are CE and devils LE (you can twist that of course but still id a houserule).Thanks Nicos I'm going to try your idea on another villain who is an Erinyes.I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.it seems weak. Anybody who clese her in to melee will have a good fort save. And probably a good Ac, and it is just 1d3 of damage.
If you really want to make her a threat in melee try adding 2 levels of antipaladin and then eldrith knight.
Ah yeah I don't want to twist that it makes sense the way it is. An EK Erinyes still sounds awesome though.
I think what I will do is take all of your advice and make the more powerful version as well as the lesser one I have now.
If you follow Ashiel's idea, you could even go with this.
Sickness.
Well, erinyes are my favorite devils (and devils are my favorite monster) so can we hear about the history of that erinyes EK ? :PAh yeah I don't want to twist that it makes sense the way it is. An EK Erinyes still sounds awesome though.Note that the erinyes would need more levles of sorcerer though and By RAW antipaladin are CE and devils LE (you can twist that of course but still id a houserule).Thanks Nicos I'm going to try your idea on another villain who is an Erinyes.I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.it seems weak. Anybody who clese her in to melee will have a good fort save. And probably a good Ac, and it is just 1d3 of damage.
If you really want to make her a threat in melee try adding 2 levels of antipaladin and then eldrith knight.
The Erinyes story is not very good she has been completely bored for at least the last hundred years. She is basically a babysitter for dragon siblings who don't know they are dragons.
A ranger Erinyes can make players cry.
I would have a ranger(2) Erinyes CR 10-ranged DPR. I would not have her as a lone combatant though.
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Drider BBEG fight
Drow Cleric 10-Battle field control, buffing, and healing. CR 9
Have this one summoning before the players show up. A high perception check will help if there is a battle that is not too far from where the fighter will take place.
Drider-Inquisitor or Antipaladin. CR 11
The inquistor probably falls under the skill category so it takes two levels of Inquisitor to account for 1 CR bump, but since inquisitors can be made to fight well I would check the numbers to make sure you don't overwhelm the players.
Drow Sorcerer full caster 10 CR 9
total CR=13
Wraithstrike the Erinyes is in the opposite faction. Part of a Lawful Empire.
Thanks guys after I freaked out about every one fighting it was very cool for you to all be friendly and give me advice. I really appreciate it you guys have been awesome.
I had to unbalanced myself to make it happen it was a great sacrifice.
For the Ghaele I am just looking at the numbers. I can probably pick something that has less options to make the same argument. I think the Ice Devil has a weapon. I have not checked the stats yet though.I think she looks pretty good. I do agree with Ciretose that Eldritch Knight is a very good prestige class for her (fluff as you desire it, it doesn't actually have to be a "knight"), but if that's out, I'd suggest figuring out exactly what you want her to do, or what you expect her to do, and go from there. Are you wanting her to dominate with arcane power, martial prowess, trickery and deception, or perhaps something entirely different like minions?
As for cleric levels, why wouldn't an avatar of a god be able to support cleric levels? The default game says you can be a cleric of an ideal. If she's a goddess, then she can be a cleric of herself! (If that sounds weird, most of the published deities in 3.x have cleric levels and their own domains).
Like Ciretose said, hum a few bars about her, and we might be able to help out some more! :)
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@Wraithstrike - I'd buy the Ghaele argument if it wasn't for the fact the Ghaele is over the CR chart with a mundane weapon. The +4 weapon is gravy. Why is it gravy? Because the Ghaele's own natural abilities soar her above the chart numbers without the weapon. You could take the Ghaele's magic weapon away, or replace it with a +3 holy instead of +2 holy and still would notice no change in CR. In fact, even with a mundane sword she exceeds the chart.
The ice devil having a +1 is not that big of a factor, but I have noticed that the monster's gear is counted a part of their treasure, which I mentioned in an earlier post, and it also brings them on up to par with the chart on several monsters in the book*. Sometimes it takes them over the mark(most for specialised monsters). As for the ghaele I think you just found a creative use of the monster. Had an evil monster been built like that it would have a higher CR most likely since the devs would have looked for more ways to use it against the PC's. As for the ghaele's other abilities it should have a CR bump in my opinion.
*I doubt that is a coincidence. The triple wealth is only given so the ghaele can afford the sword. The treasure numbers represents the amount of treasure the players should receive from the monster, not how much the monster gets to use.
Table: Treasure Values per Encounter lists the amount of treasure each encounter should award based on the average level of the PCs and the speed of the campaign's XP progression (slow, medium, or fast). Easy encounters should award treasure one level lower than the PCs' average level. Challenging, hard, and epic encounters should award treasure one, two, or three levels higher than the PCs' average level, respectively. If you are running a low-fantasy game, cut these values in half. If you are running a high-fantasy game, double these values.
If the money is used on expendables, and the monsters uses them then the players don't get them. It should also be noted that monsters that can't use equipment have the same stats(by the chart) as equipped monsters. My example of comparing the dire tiger to the stone giant support that. I doubt that is also a coincidence.
At CR 6 we have the wooly rhinoceros. It has slightly higher attack bonus than normal(+2), but it does 1 less damage than normal.
It's AC of 19 is on par. It has a +13 fort save which is really high for a CR 6 monster, but it only has a will save of +3 which is two lower than normal. It also has a few extra Hit points.
The Ettin, also a combat monster comes in at +12. It also does 26 points of damage, which is more than the wooly, but it has a lower chance to hit. It has the same AC. It fort save is +9, which is exactly where it should be while its poor saves sit at +5 and +2.
For all intents and purposes it is almost identical to the Wooly Rhinoceros. If you were to add items beyond what is in the book this one would also have better numbers than the wooly, by enough so that it would qualify as a higher CR going by the chart.
I glanced at other monsters, and all those without treasure or incidential treasure fall behind those with treasure in cases where those with treasure were allowed to buy things. That does not even include the fact that the monsters that have gear are intelligent which allows for a GM to be more creative with tactics.
I still prefer this method, than what recently became a trend in RPG games like Dragon Age 2 or Mass Effect 2, that your enemy is full with expensive equipment but after the battle you can barely take a few coins off their bodies or maybe a single piece of armor or weapon (lets say, the helmet) and the corpse disappears after that (in worse case you find "junk" or nothing at all)
ignoring the corpse disappearing scene, it is basically the opposite of what is talked about in the OP
I honestly rather find a swallowed treasure in the defeated enemy's stomach than to imagine a fully armored and well equipped enemy that lies there but I am denied to loot the corpse of due to some absurd and awful balancing concept
I am a big spender in RPG, often buying stuff just to see what it looks like, or spending on ingame food and music and whatnot, my main source of income for these is usually to sell everything unneeded from enemies even their boots, I have nothing against well equipped enemies that use what they got, but the above mentioned recent PC rpg trend makes me go berzerk
I agree Ryu... But fortunately that issue remains mostly a PC/console game problem. Every GM I have played with baring one lets PCs grab up the gear the NPC/monster was using. That one GM claimed letting us take up the super weapons she had equipped the monsters with would have ruined game balance. Instead she ruined suspension of disbelief when all their stuff simply crumbled to dust as we looted it. But newer GMs sometimes resort to heavy handed tactics to avoid pitfalls, real or imagined. Even she eventually grew out of this and started using some common sense in encounter design rather than such tactics.
Grimmy it looks like you are in good hands as far as advice is concerned. I also think allowing cleric spells for a divine avatar would make perfect sense, so don't feel limited to sorcery if you don't wish. ALSO remember this is something of a unique being. If you think it will make for a more memorable fight feel free to mix and match cleric and sorceress spells. An avatar of a being that strong may very well have access to knowledge a classed character wouldn't.
Honestly, with all the MMO stuff already creeping into 4th Edition, and I already had experience with pnp played like that (in my case the "urge to rush" was the factor why we weren't allowed a proper looting) I wouldn't be surprised if the issue becomes more usual and comes up more often in the next 5 years.
my comment is not as much of any help for the concern of the OP but more a forewarning of what may come, and that it can be far worse
Instead she ruined suspension of disbelief when all their stuff simply crumbled to dust as we looted it.
1e drow equipment did this. It's far older than video games.
Instead she ruined suspension of disbelief when all their stuff simply crumbled to dust as we looted it.1e drow equipment did this. It's far older than video games.
I didn't know this... But to be fair I am sure my GM didn't either.
I have had limited experience with 1e at best.
Drow equipment decay was removed from the game because it's antagonistic to the players. It quite literally embodies peoples' worst fears about creatures with equipment, except that you get no treasure afterwords. Now I'm of the belief that in the case of equal CRs, if a creature grants a little more treasure than one who doesn't, then it's okay to let them use that treasure as would be appropriate (even if it did increase the difficulty slightly, you're also acquiring more treasure as a reward, so I see the risk/reward aspect balancing out nicely).
However, in the case of drow with disintegrating items there is no fairness. If your goblins are wielding shortbows and carrying a healing potion, each goblin you off before they can use their potion means you get a potion. Hooray, you get a potion! Now imagine that the potion could only be used by that goblin. Suddenly, having that potion is way unfair. Likewise, if we decided that we were going to incorrectly use the % discounts for magic items (in 3.x it was made clear that stuff like -30% for alignment restrictions on items is NOT part of the actual rules, but is a behind the screen advice piece), then arming the goblin warband with magic items that have a 30+% discount on each item because they can only be used by goblins of evil alignment who worship the goblin deity, then that would be unfair and really messed up.
Sean K. Reynolds discusses this problem on his blog: RPG Rant - Drow Items.
I posit that I think much of this is a matter of extremes. A potion and/or a few alchemical items that can be consumed during an encounter, but may be recovered if the enemy does not use them, is not the same thing. However, an NPC who has completely been decked out in powerful consumables that he or she will assuredly be able to use is pretty much copying the drow disintegration problem.
Example Comparison
1. We have 5h level goblin fighter. We determine his appropriate gear value of 3,450 gp, and we purchase stuff as would be appropriate for him. We buy a mwk composite bow, maybe a +1 breastplate, some 400 gp in consumables (elixer of hiding x1, oil of magic weapon x1, potion of cure light wounds x2). Our goblin has some consumables, but plenty of other equipment that can be taken and sold at 1/2 price, and if the party gets the drop on our NPC (such as by sneaking up on him) then they might prevent him from using any of his stuff and get an extra bonus in the form of his unused consumables. Conclusion: This is good and makes sense.
2. We have a 5th level goblin fighter 4/sorcerer 1. As before, we determine he has 3,450 gp gear, except we outfit him with some basic weapons. He will only be encountered in his lair with an alarm spell active, and will have ample time to buff before the party arrives. As his gear we give him a wand of stoneskin with 1 charge (470 gp), a CL 20 wand of greater magic weapon with 1 charge (900 gp), a wand of summon monster IV (420 gp) with 1 charge, and the rest of his gear in mundane goods to be buffed. When the party arrives, he immediately begins buffing. When the PCs reach him, he is now wielding a +5 composite longbow, possessing DR 10/adamantine, and has a Hell Hound to assist him in the fight for the first 7 rounds or so. Conclusion: This is very bad and strains suspension of disbelief badly.
Another Look at Monsters with Treasure
We have a Hill Giant who has 2,600 gp in treasure. Following the guidelines in the Gamemastering section of the Core Rulebook, when we are working on a treasure horde, we begin with the most expensive items in the horde first and work our way down, and we might even randomly generate our treasure (in fact, tools like this one can be helpful for completely generating treasure for a creature at random. In this case, we're going to build a treasure horde customized to our campaign.
Our hill giant has been stealing from dwarf settlements for some time now, and has made off with some dwarf goodies. So in his on hand treasure, he has about 200 gp worth of gems, jewelry, and stone figurines, and another 200 gp worth of trade goods (stolen spices, grains, fruit, and perhaps raw metal), and another 100 gp worth of copper coins after he turned over a trade cart and looted a chest of coins (10,000 copper pieces, or 200 lbs. of coins). The expensive items that we chose are a masterwork warhammer, and a masterwork mithral chain shirt (more pretties stolen from the dwarfs). Anything left over we come out with as gems, a greatclub, and some cheap armor for him.
Now our hill giant has treasure that makes sense. In this case, there's not a whole lot that he can use out of his treasure (he could wield the masterwork warhammer has a light weapon, but likely has little reason to do so, and the chain shirt won't fit him). This is good.
However, our hill giant might have instead knocked over an elven patrol instead of raiding dwarf villagers. Suddenly, his treasure is completely different. Now he's carrying about a hundred pounds of broken elven armor, a few bows, an assortment of differently specialized arrows, and a few potions and low-level wands. Now he can't use the wands, but those potions? Well he sure can! And he will if he comes up (it might be amusing to assume he has no idea what the potions actually do since the labels might be written in elven, and then randomly generate them, so that he begins doing weird things like using reduce person or tongues). This is also good.
Meanwhile, we have our third hill giant, who has been pressed into the service of an ogre mage through the mage's impressive powers and cunning. While in the ogre mage's service, the ogre mage has had them arm themselves a bit more appropriately for minions in his service. Not much has changed from them, they are now wielding masterwork greatclubs (about 300 gp), and he has put them in mwk studded leather armor (about 300 gp), and has armed them with some potions of enlarge person for intimidation purposes. The rest of their treasure on hand consists almost entirely of stolen trade goods that they are to bring back to their ogre mage master. Their CR doesn't change, and their treasures make sense for their narrative values. Most importantly, if such things are unusual for the likes of hill giants, then it might offer a clue to the PCs that something is amiss and that there is a brain behind the brawn of the local hill giant raids. This is also good.
When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.
When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.
Heh. I should probably just keep my mouth shut on this one. (^-^)"
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Use the stat blocks as written, and all other treasure will be in bales of cotton/hay.. figure 5 sp a bale... at 50 lbs per bale...
60,000 gp
that should be about 3000 tons
the average cart can carry 1 ton (maybe)
so that should take them.. months and or years to move to market :)
this lesson in absurdity brought to you by the thought
if the monster is not allowed to use its wealth..
then why should the players :)
That reminds me of how much cheese you can get with the rich parents trait at level 1. It is tons literally.
Use the stat blocks as written, and all other treasure will be in bales of cotton/hay.. figure 5 sp a bale... at 50 lbs per bale...
60,000 gp
that should be about 3000 tons
the average cart can carry 1 ton (maybe)
so that should take them.. months and or years to move to market :)
this lesson in absurdity brought to you by the thought
if the monster is not allowed to use its wealth..
then why should the players :)
Hahaha, thanks AD. That has brightened my day considerably. :D
On a side note, I imagine a cart or wagon could carry more, if it was evenly distributed. I was recently watching a thing on the history channel that noted where most of modern agricultural techniques come from, and it noted that ancient Chinese wheelbarrows could carry upwards to about 1 ton. I imagine a sturdy wagon with some oxen could carry far more (heck, oxen in D&D/PF can drag an enormous load).
On yet another side note, this reminds me of an adventure I ran where the party was exploring an ancient foundry (as in, a place where they made lots of metal products) that was abandoned during a war and then overtaken by nature and some badguys. When the party hit the big payoff, they were a bit bewildered for a moment when they realized that the valuable metals in the foundry were lots of copper bars in a giant safe/storage area. Thousands of gold pieces in copper bars. Now for every gold piece, that's two one pound copper bars.
So 5,000 gp would equate to about 10,000 pounds (about 5 tons) of copper bars. The roads and such up to the foundry had long since become overgrown, and so the party looked at each other and goes:
P1: "Okay so...we found the treasure...how do we get it back?"
P2: "Okay, let's head back to town, and see if we can buy some wagons and oxen to carry it back. We can take some of these bars with us to buy them with."
P3: "Hmm, yeah that's a good idea, but what if we instead leave the copper here and use this foundry as a base of operations? It's cleared out now, and we might be able to sell it or turn it into something cool."
P2: "Hm, you might have something there..."
That reminds me of how much cheese you can get with the rich parents trait at level 1. It is tons literally.
Rich Parents = 90,000 pounds of wheat. Or 45 tons.
Hahaha, thanks AD. That has brightened my day considerably. :D
It brightened mine more until I realized it wasn't AD. Not that it isn't still funny and cool.
Use the stat blocks as written, and all other treasure will be in bales of cotton/hay.. figure 5 sp a bale... at 50 lbs per bale...
60,000 gp
that should be about 3000 tons
the average cart can carry 1 ton (maybe)
so that should take them.. months and or years to move to market :)
this lesson in absurdity brought to you by the thought
if the monster is not allowed to use its wealth..
then why should the players :)
Oh, yeah, awesome Heimdallsgothi. Sorry, I glanced at your avatar picture and mistook you for another poster (thank Grimmy). Definitely awesome post, and thanks. Also, nice to meet you. ^-^
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no problem!
I always considered 25-50% of a monsters wealth suitable to be used to buy gear, consumables, hire retainers etc
Otherwise you end up with some really absurd situations like
Wow, a potion of cure serious wounds.. good thing he kept that in a locked safe, where it was useless...
Of course encounters will often have a given item being deployed against the players... +1,+2 swords.. happens all the time in my game. One of the classic rules of D&D has always been, be careful when you ask for magic items, your next enemy may be wielding it against you. This is both normal and expected.
potions.. scrolls.. wands.. staves.. armor.. weapons...
I've had all creatures capable of using items use them, on occasion. I'm not saying deck the creatures equipment to counter a specific party layout, but CR is only a guide line, wealth, another guideline
xp, for a specific encounter.. again.. a guideline
A dragon that ambushes you on prepared ground and loses.. one xp level
Same dragon you lure into a cunning trap.. different xp level
Sleeping dragon ganked by an avalanche.. still another xp level
Your Pathfinder my vary
I had an Orc army, led by a Orc chief, who was possessed by a sword he discovered. The players were hard pressed to out maneuver this orc who was a cunning strategist with multiple layers of contingency plans. Orc chief was level 4.. the sword.. +3 weapon (cursed), far beyond anything the orc should have had. but it made a great plot device.
The final battle, a satisfying conclusion
Everyone had fun and no one made mention of CR, Wealth, or encounter balance because it was fun, and challenging.
My players are smart, resourceful, adaptive, cunning and catch me off guard on multiple occasions. They take notes, have long memories, and rarely take the same tactic twice.
If I ran encounters strictly by CR.. it would be a cakewalk, and more importantly, they wouldn't have nearly as much fun, or have as great a sense of accomplishment
When I posted my Fiendish Drider example I didn't have an ulterior motive but it's interesting that as it turned out she is CR legal and needs all of her treasure equipped to be competitive by anyones standards.Heh. I should probably just keep my mouth shut on this one. (^-^)"
You should be using the NPC gear to equip the drider. If that does not bring her up to standard you may have to invoke GM fiat. The rules are not perfect. Sometimes NPC gear can take you beyond the standard. In that case use what you need, and have the rest be less useful. Now despite my saying the goal is to match the chart you should remember I was debating from a rules/intention PoV. When it comes to playing the game your goal is to make the monster a good challenge, chart be damned. :)