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545 post since my last post. I had no internet service. Have there been any major developments(agreements, developer input, etc) over the last 10 pages?
Devs aren't going to weigh in on a Gamer Talk thread. If someone actually wanted to ask the question they would need to do what Grimmy did and make a post to FAQ.
But if you just want to declare your way is the correct way, doing that would be madness.
545 post since my last post. I had no internet service. Have there been any major developments(agreements, developer input, etc) over the last 10 pages?
Well you just barely missed the part where I wrote an embarrassing stalkerish diatribe about ashiel :(
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545 post since my last post. I had no internet service. Have there been any major developments(agreements, developer input, etc) over the last 10 pages?Well you just barely missed the part where I wrote an embarrassing stalkerish diatribe about ashiel :(
It isn't stalkerish when you imagine it coming from a bunny :)
Well I'm pretty embarrassed. Im the same way in RL, I always go too far trying to make everyone get along when some people just never will.
I do have a question.
Say we have stock monster A with no equipment such as a dire tiger(combat monster)
Lets say we also have a 2nd monster that according to Ashiel can use equipment, but is just as dangerous as the tiger before it is given additional equipment.
How are they supposed to be the same CR?
Dire Tiger
AC 17:1 poor save(will save) that is where a poor save for that CR should be.
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab)
The tiger's attack bonus and damage are higher than normal, but its AC is 3 below what other CR 7 monsters have.
avg damage = 41 damage compare to the standard of 30
Stone Giant
AC 22:
Melee greatclub +16/+11 (2d8+12) or 2 slams +16 (1d8+8)
It's attacks are also higher than normal, and so is the AC.
Its damage averages out to 42 which is more than the tiger.
This monster does have a greatclub included as part of its standard treasure. The rest is supposedly up to the GM.
Treasure standard (greatclub, other treasure)
How are they supposed to have the same CR if one is supposed to get access to additional treasure, and the other does not?
The giant gets 2,600 gp for its treasure value. If you take away the gold for the large great club it is down to 2590.
I can't find guidelines on how much of the treasure should be jewel, for defense or offense so I can assume I can use it however I want to.
The best thing to do is shore up that will save. Cloak of resistance +1 which is 1000 gp which actually boost reflex, will and fort saves. His weak will save of +7 is now a +8 which is on par with the weak save of a CR 9 monster.
Now going back to the giant, he is well served to buy a potion/oil of mage armor
The giant still has 1590 left.
He can get a potion of mage armor, pushing its AC to 26, which is on part with a CR 11 or 12 monster.
I am failing to see how the dire tiger and storm giant are still the same CR if one gets to use treasure and the other does no.
I still have 1540 left. I would probably buy the giant a bow instead of having it use rocks in case ranged attacks came into place. Spending 1000 on the bow still leaves 540 to give to the PC's in various treasure.
A little earlier in the thread several of us agreed that Treasure Type: Standard is more likely to be a pile of gold and such then the equipment carefully broken down into categories that you see with Treasure Type: NPC Gear. Speaking for myself, I would pre-generate the treasure hoard, choosing things that thematically made sense, some things I would like to see fall into the hands of the PC's, plenty of generic coins and gems and jewelry and other valuables. I would have that stone giant use something if it was there and it made sense for him to use it, but I wouldn't build him like I build a character, treating the treasure value as his wealth for purchasing all the custom equipment that would make him as strong as possible. If I wanted to spend that much time on him it would be because he was going to be an important BBEG or recurring NPC, and in that case I would probably advance him with a few class levels or in some cases a template. Then I would give thought to all the design considerations you mentioned, but still keeping my choices thematically appropriate first and mechanically sound in a way that was consistent with that.
I will also add that I am not against Ashiel. I do agree with him, most of the time, just not this time. There are too many ways to pick the "prefect" item, and if you include partially charged wands(fill in other items as needed) then you can definitely bumped a creature's CR.
Well I definitely don't have the system mastery that you and others have, but I am prepping a whole setting worth of material in advance, so I'm forced to come to a decision about how to handle these issues. My best judgement at this point tells me that creatures listed with Treasure Type: NPC Gear do assume that the gear be equipped as outlined in the NPC Gear table, and that this fact is already considered in determining that creatures CR. The stone giant you mentioned is more of a gray area so in my case, I will be more cautious when assigning useful equipment to a creature like that.
A little earlier in the thread several of us agreed that Treasure Type: Standard is more likely to be a pile of gold and such then the equipment carefully broken down into categories that you see with Treasure Type: NPC Gear. Speaking for myself, I would pre-generate the treasure hoard, choosing things that thematically made sense, some things I would like to see fall into the hands of the PC's, plenty of generic coins and gems and jewelry and other valuables. I would have that stone giant use something if it was there and it made sense for him to use it, but I wouldn't build him like I build a character, treating the treasure value as his wealth for purchasing all the custom equipment that would make him as strong as possible. If I wanted to spend that much time on him it would be because he was going to be an important BBEG or recurring NPC, and in that case I would probably advance him with a few class levels or in some cases a template. Then I would give thought to all the design considerations you mentioned, but still keeping my choices thematically appropriate first and mechanically sound in a way that was consistent with that.
I beleive that if the devs intended for us to use standard, double or triple gear for the monster they would have guidelines. There are no guidelines*, so there is no reason to not give the monster the best it can have. The monster is trying to stay alive. If having an expensive bear rug or buying item X the monster should choose the item since the argument is that it makes no sense for the monster to not use the wealth to equip itself. There are not too many games as an example where a PC will buy 1000gp worth of jewelry instead of something it needs.
*If there are guidelines I have not seen them. The NPC wealth chart list a very specific gp break down, which does not line up with the numbers from the standard wealth chart.
I also just realized the Ghaele's sword comes out of its standard treasure which matches my earlier point that any gear is assumed to be included to help it match the chart. <--I don't remember which post I disagreed with about the Ghaele having an additional 30000ish gp in addition to the sword, but whatever is in parenthesis is included in the treasure listed.
Ghaele-->Treasure triple (+2 holy greatsword)
I will also add that I am not against Ashiel. I do agree with him, most of the time, just not this time. There are too many ways to pick the "perfect" item, and if you include partially charged wands(fill in other items as needed) then you can definitely bumped a creature's CR.
edit:changed "prefect" to perfect
There are too many ways to pick the "prefect" item, and if you include partially charged wands(fill in other items as needed) then you can definitely bumped a creature's CR.An that certainly is not inherently bad but the Dm have to handle it with care of course.
1. It is more prep work for the GM.
2. Not all GM's are capable of doing this if that was the intent.
My comparison of the stone giant, and dire tiger is also an example of why it is a bad idea. Before the wealth comes into play they are about even. With gear the stone giant is definitely a harder fight. It is already doing damage on par with a CR 10 or 11 monster, and then with the mage armor potion is has the AC of a CR 11 or 12 monster. It's defense(saves) are also improved, and it still has about 1500 gp left.
Well I definitely don't have the system mastery that you and others have, but I am prepping a whole setting worth of material in advance, so I'm forced to come to a decision about how to handle these issues. My best judgement at this point tells me that creatures listed with Treasure Type: NPC Gear do assume that the gear be equipped as outlined in the NPC Gear table, and that this fact is already considered in determining that creatures CR. The stone giant you mentioned is more of a gray area so in my case, I will be more cautious when assigning useful equipment to a creature like that.
I agree with you about NPC gear. The book also agrees with us, but "NPC gear" and "standard gear" are not the same thing. The book even tells you how to divide up the NPC gear so you know how much to use for weapons, armor, and so on.
Go here and find the "Table: NPC Gear".
Wraithstrike, if you have the time and the inclination, I honestly think this thread is worth reading through as crazy as it has been. A lot of people complained it was going off the rails or full of flame-bait, all the usual stuff, but honestly, we kept circling the issue and every so often a relevant quote from the rules would be unearthed, and we really kind of got a grip on it I think, until the end there where I spazzed out and got weird for a second.
You might already know this, but pretty early on in the thread someone went and asked James Jacobs and he weighed in on the issue, so that was enlightening for example.
I think it would be worth your time to read through some of it, I'd love to hear what you thought of some of the points that were made.
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There are too many ways to pick the "prefect" item, and if you include partially charged wands(fill in other items as needed) then you can definitely bumped a creature's CR.An that certainly is not inherently bad but the Dm have to handle it with care of course.
Which I think was the argument most of us are making. At this point I actually feel like there is wide agreement.
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1) yeah, some Dm like that kind of work
2)True, it should be an option not a "must"
Your example is certainly is not inherently bad. If your improved Stone giant is more like a CR 12 creature then use it as a CR 12 creature, for example it should give experience as a CR 12.
I think this is where pretty much everyone is at?
Am I wrong?
That Table you linked to has played a big part in this discussion. It's also something I haven't gone a day without looking at in the last 2 1/2 months or so. I'm working on a setting, so I've been populating it with all kinds of Druidic Orders, Evil Cults, Thieve's Guilds, Arcane Colleges and everything else you might imagine in a fantasy world. Goblin War Bands, Gnoll Raiders, you name it. One of the reasons I have a big stake in this thread is that I don't want to have to do my work over later if I find out everything is out of balance.
Wraithstrike, if you have the time and the inclination, I honestly think this thread is worth reading through as crazy as it has been. A lot of people complained it was going off the rails or full of flame-bait, all the usual stuff, but honestly, we kept circling the issue and every so often a relevant quote from the rules would be unearthed, and we really kind of got a grip on it I think, until the end there where I spazzed out and got weird for a second.
You might already know this, but pretty early on in the thread someone went and asked James Jacobs and he weighed in on the issue, so that was enlightening for example.
I think it would be worth your time to read through some of it, I'd love to hear what you thought of some of the points that were made.
I found the James Jacobs statement. He is basically saying that if the "new" gear results in a substantial increase when compared to the chart the GM should most likely assign a new CR, which is basically what I am saying.
As an example, adding a +2 to attack, and maybe +1 to saves is not that much of an issue. If you increase offense and defense across the board then the CR should probably be bumped.
I am still reading the other post to see what else comes up.
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That Table you linked to has played a big part in this discussion. It's also something I haven't gone a day without looking at in the last 2 1/2 months or so. I'm working on a setting, so I've been populating it with all kinds of Druidic Orders, Evil Cults, Thieve's Guilds, Arcane Colleges and everything else you might imagine in a fantasy world. Goblin War Bands, Gnoll Raiders, you name it. One of the reasons I have a big stake in this thread is that I don't want to have to do my work over later if I find out everything is out of balance.
I don't think you will Grimmy. It isn't hard to avoid disrupting balance when modifying unless is it your intent to do so.
Can you guys maybe give me a second opinion on the monster I made that Ashiel critiqued for me? I want to know if I made an appropriate CR 13 challenge with this one. It's an important recurring villain.
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Can you guys maybe give me a second opinion on the monster I made that Ashiel critiqued for me? I want to know if I made an appropriate CR 13 challenge with this one. It's an important recurring villain.
He seemed fine. If anything I would kick the power level up a notch. Compare him to an Ice Devil or a Glabrezu and I think he could use a bit more. Particularly if he is a BBEG.
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XOCHI ARACHNE CR 13
Fiendish Advanced Huge Drider Sorcerer 5
CE Huge Aberration
Init +9; Senses: Darkvision; Perception +20
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 23
hp 169 (9d8+5d6+112)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +15
DR 10/good; Immune sleep; Resist cold 15, electricity 5, fire 15; SR 18
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft., Climbing (20 feet)
Melee: Bite +11 (1d6+4/20/x2) and
Rod, Viper +16/+11 (1d8+11/20/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, Bite - injury (DC 22), Smite Good (1/day), Web (14 HP) (8/day) (DC 22)
Spell-Like Abilities: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (1/day), Dancing Lights (At will), Darkness (At will), Deeper Darkness (1/day), Detect Good (Constant), Detect Law (Constant), Detect Magic (Constant), Dispel Magic (1/day), Faerie Fire (At will), Levitate (1/day), Suggestion (1/day)
Spells Known (CL 11, +15 melee touch, +11 ranged touch):
5 (5/day) Dominate Person (DC 22), Telekinesis
4 (7/day) Dimension Door, Enervation, Summon Monster IV
3 (8/day) Slow (DC 20), Lightning Bolt (DC 20), Magic Circle against Good (DC 20), Dispel Magic
2 (8/day) Web (DC 19), Bull's Strength (DC 19), Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Summon Swarm, Levitate
1 (8/day) Silent Image (DC 18), Magic Missile, True Strike (DC 18), Mage Armor (DC 18), Cause Fear (DC 18), Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 18)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 17), Ray of Frost, Bleed (DC 17), Read Magic (DC 17), Mage Hand, Daze (DC 17), Message, Ghost Sound (DC 17), Penumbra
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STATISTICS
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Str 28, Dex 18/20, Con 26, Int 19, Wis 20, Cha 22/24
Base Atk +8; CMB +19; CMD 37
Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus: Bite, Weapon Focus: Mace, Heavy
Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +21, Climb +30, Fly +0, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Arcana) +20, Knowledge (Planes) +20, Perception +20, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +21
Languages Abyssal, Common, Drow Sign Language, Elven, Undercommon
Combat Gear: Rod, Viper; Other Gear: Headband of Alluring Charisma +2, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
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Abyssal
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.
That Table you linked to has played a big part in this discussion. It's also something I haven't gone a day without looking at in the last 2 1/2 months or so. I'm working on a setting, so I've been populating it with all kinds of Druidic Orders, Evil Cults, Thieve's Guilds, Arcane Colleges and everything else you might imagine in a fantasy world. Goblin War Bands, Gnoll Raiders, you name it. One of the reasons I have a big stake in this thread is that I don't want to have to do my work over later if I find out everything is out of balance.
My point with the post linking to the table was that it only applies to "NPC gear", but I think we agree on how that should be spent.
I think the discussion is how much, if any, wealth from "standard" treasure should be spent. I don't think any is intended to be spent, but if you use some of it to help the monster a little it would matter too much as long as the GM does not over do it.
That's cool that you agree about NPC Gear, I didn't realize earlier that you were on board with that. I couldn't figure out what the problem was since it's spelled out right in the rules. Now the other treasure types, as you say, are another matter.
The rules are silent.
I'll say this though. There are those who roll treasure randomly right? Soon we'll have a much better system for this with Ultimate Equipment coming out.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think I would improve him in certain areas. The SR should go up. A CR 13 monster normally has a 24 SR. If it is being used as a boss fight I would use it as a buffer type since I don't see it doing well in direct combat. Maybe give it some lower level monster to harass the party.
PS:Comparing it to the Ice Devil or Glazebru, which Ciretose advised is a good idea. Giving him Cleric levels, instead of sorcerer levels, if you want him to be better in combat(direct combat) might work. It really depends on how you intend to use him though.
Ahh that's funny I thought the rod does 1d10 Con damage. Whoops.
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I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.
She's going to have a hard time making any kind melee with her attack bonus being so low relative to the level, and that fort save is going to be pretty easy for a 13th level PC.
I think you may be better off spending elsewhere. It's kind of hard because it's a tweener character with both melee and combat elements, but neither being that great considering the level.
What do you envision as the end goal?
Hmm I got the SR from the fiendish template. Not sure how to up it.
She doesn't necessarily have to be able to solo the party, I guess. She'll be a behind the scenes villain for awhile anyway. Maybe when they fight she could have some help.
Mostly I was just curious if I made something that could pull its weight for the CR.
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Hmm I got the SR from the fiendish template. Not sure how to up it.
She doesn't necessarily have to be able to solo the party, I guess. She'll be a behind the scenes villain for awhile anyway. Maybe when they fight she could have some help.Mostly I was just curious if I made something that could pull its weight for the CR.
I would say it is a bit underpowered, but that is what these forums are for.
We can make it bigger, faster, stronger!
Thought about Eldritch knight? You start off with the ability to cast 3rd level spells.
So maybe she just forget about melee. If I ditch the Viper Rod I have 19,000 GP to spend on her. Could I bring her up to par with gear?
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.
By the book->"This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds."
1. The attack bonus of +16 is not really a deterrent.
2. The save DC is only a 16.
If you have made a new version then I think 1d10 con is a bit much if there is no save. Taking ability damage/drain above d8 with no save is really brutal, and it is a good way to kill a party. In that case the drider should have UMD so it can use cleric spells(scrolls) or potions(no UMD needed) to increase the chance to hit.
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.it seems weak. Anybody who clese her in to melee will have a good fort save. And probably a good Ac, and it is just 1d3 of damage.
If you really want to make her a threat in melee try adding 2 levels of antipaladin and then eldrith knight.
I see I was ninja'd.
Hmm I got the SR from the fiendish template. Not sure how to up it.
She doesn't necessarily have to be able to solo the party, I guess. She'll be a behind the scenes villain for awhile anyway. Maybe when they fight she could have some help.Mostly I was just curious if I made something that could pull its weight for the CR.
I see now. Nevermind my SR comment. I did not notice that fiendish template. I thought you were just using GM Fiat to add it.
I just don't see her as EK. I would rather give up on melee then go EK. In my mind she's already a fiendish sorceror.
I appreciate the advice though its definitely good to know that would get the job done.
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.What do you envision as the end goal?
This is important. Once the parties meet the BBEG she needs to have a combat roll.
What level to you expect for the party to be at when they meet the drider?
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.By the book->"This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds."
1. The attack bonus of +16 is not really a deterrent.
2. The save DC is only a 16.
If you have made a new version then I think 1d10 con is a bit much if there is no save. Taking ability damage/drain above d8 with no save is really brutal, and it is a good way to kill a party. In that case the drider should have UMD so it can use cleric spells(scrolls) or potions(no UMD needed) to increase the chance to hit.
I think I just read it wrong.
Edit: I didn't read it wrong it seems to be printed wrong in Hero Lab. It says 1d10 Con.
I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.What do you envision as the end goal?This is important. Once the parties meet the BBEG she needs to have a combat roll.
What level to you expect for the party to be at when they meet the drider?
I expect them to be level 10-11 so she's APL+2-3
I expect them to be level 10-11 so she's APL+2-3I figured she seems to keep you from closing to melee with her spells, then when you do... you realize you didn't want to. The Viper Rod looked like a heavy mace but now it's hitting you for 1d10 Con.What do you envision as the end goal?This is important. Once the parties meet the BBEG she needs to have a combat roll.
What level to you expect for the party to be at when they meet the drider?
I will probably post in the herolab forum so they know they have the wrong stats.
As for your boss, I would suggest using 1 monster. You would be better off, if you want to challenge them, by dropping her CR 11, and giving her 2 CR 9's minions that complement team evil.
I thought she could get magic circle against good up, open with quickened true strike with enervation, summon lots of spiders to spam webs, dominates a big dumb fighter type, smite good with her scorching ray, more blasts, and if they close with her she can blind fight under cover of deeper darkness.
She has +21 UMD is their anything I can do with cleric scrolls to help her along?
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I just don't see her as EK. I would rather give up on melee then go EK. In my mind she's already a fiendish sorceror.
I appreciate the advice though its definitely good to know that would get the job done.
No worries, it is your vision.
This may sound hokey, but tell me a little about the BBEG's history and background. Once we understand that we can then figure out how to make the most bad ass version of that possible.