I've been pondering about making an orc barbarian, but now that I looked at the race more closely it seems to me that for almost all purposes Half-orcs are better and infact seem to be more orcish than orcs.
I get that half-orcs are smarter and so due to their human side. But why are the things that they get from their orc-blood better than what a true orc gets?
1) +4/-2/-2/-2 vs +2 on ability scores. Aside from the ability to start with 22 strength, that actually seems like a disadvantage for the Orc, asuming strength is the primary attribute. The points I save due the additional +2 on Strength I most likely have to pay on the three mental attributes (and they get expensive quickly if I want more than 10 in one of them). Unless I really want the 22 of course, then orc is better.
2) Darkvision, half-orcs can trade their ferocity for 90 ft range... where does that come from if not the orc side, then why don't orcs have better darkvision by defualt or at least this option?
3) The Bestial alternate racial trait: "The orc blood of some half-orcs manifests in the form of particularly prominent orc features, exacerbating their bestial appearances but improving their already keen senses. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks." makes it almost sound like Orcs are super perceptive. But Orcs don't get a perception bonus, and their wisdom penalty makes them even worse. So... where's that coming from?
4) Intimidating: Orcs don't get the +2 Intimidate either?
5) Toothy: Half orcs can get a bite attack and Orcs can't? Is their human side providing them with those super-teeth? Ok there's a trait that allows Orcs to get that too, so its not that bad, but still weird.
The one thing Orcs seem clearly ahead of Half-orcs is the Ferocity. In all other regards they seem to lose, even the aspecs you would think the orc would be winning.
The books were mostly built for PC races not so you could improve on non-PC races, so as of now those options are not there for them. They probably could have given some of these to the orc in the ARG, but I guess they did not want to make them too attractive.
The fluff is not matching the mechanics in these cases. I think they should have just used different fluff/flavor.
I've been pondering about making an orc barbarian, but now that I looked at the race more closely it seems to me that for almost all purposes Half-orcs are better and infact seem to be more orcish than orcs.
One of the counter-arguments you are likely to here is that "Orcs" were not originally intended as Player Characters. The ARG changes that dynamic.
In one sense, yes Half-Orcs should be better than Full-Orcs, as they would have “better” brains. I believe that this is the root of the Intimidate Bonus. In Orc society, a Half-Orc benefits from avoiding unnecessary combats (due to lower strength and weaker ferocity) without appearing weak. In human society, they tend to find themselves in the role of thug or bully.
But, you still have a point.
The more “bestial” orcs should have options for both the bite attack and the perception bonus.
Well as I pointed out, I get that half-orcs overall migth be considered "better" due to their higher intelligence and so that they get from their human side, which gives the things full orcs don't have, and that's ok.
I just think it's very odd they're also better at some the orcish things.
And yes, the ARG changed made orcs technically a PC race, so that argument really doesn't work anymore.
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Ferocity, Strength, and access to the only Constitution based casting archetype in the game are all big bonuses for the orc. Although I noticed that JJ said the Racial heritage ability allowed humans to take archetypes intended for other races, so maybe half-orcs should have access to most orc feats, archetypes, and abilities as well?
Anyways, the short answer here is that half-orcs were always intended as a player race, orcs weren't, so half-orcs get more love :P
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I figure this isn't what was intended, but when you take two species of beings and have them birth a hybrid, sometimes side-effects take hold that are exaggerations of one of the parents.
For example, a Liger (a hybrid offspring between a male lion and a tigress) normally grows to become much larger than either a tiger or a lion of either genders.
Perhaps in this case, the features of a half-orc become far more pronounced and advanced than either a human or an orc.
The ARG does not make them into a PC race. It just gives you options to use with them. The only PC races are still the ones in the core book. Anything other race is by GM approval only aka houserule.
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The ARG does not make them into a PC race. It just gives you options to use with them. The only PC races are still the ones in the core book. Anything other race is by GM approval only aka houserule.
Incorrect.
From "Introduction"
"But the Advanced Race Guide is more than that. While
the Pathfinder RPG has always featured a variety of races
for players to roleplay, this book alone offers 36 different
playable races, not counting subraces, and this is merely a
starting point".
From "Navigating this book":
"Each section details a number of alternate racial traits, favored
class rewards, archetypes, feats, equipment, magic
items, and spells designed specifically for those players
interested in creating such characters".
Bolded mine.
The intent is obviously to let players play these races, and the ARG gives you the tools to do it.
I am not incorrect.
While the seven core races are the primary focus of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, they’re not the only ones suitable to be played as characters. Other, even stranger races help populate the world, and—with the GM’s permission— also work well as player character races.....
At no point does it say those characters are rules legal. Your statement only says they are "offered". Your second bolded area also does nothing to make them anything more than possible options.
Note:I never said they were not playable. Playable only means you can use them in the game without causing balance problems. They were playable long before the ARG came into being. What is playable, and what is rules legal by default are not the same thing.
I would just assume that all options available to half-orcs are for orcs as well. Half orcs have the following racial feature:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
If you were to write out a half-orc's statblock, they would be Humanoid (human, orc). Seems to me that they should be able to pick from both human and orc traits, and orcs should be able to pick half-orc traits specifically.
Not RAW, but it would be more elegant, I think.
I would just assume that all options available to half-orcs are for orcs as well. Half orcs have the following racial feature:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
If you were to write out a half-orc's statblock, they would be Humanoid (human, orc). Seems to me that they should be able to pick from both human and orc traits, and orcs should be able to pick half-orc traits specifically.
Not RAW, but it would be more elegant, I think.
Not necessarily.
I would just assume that all options available to half-orcs are for orcs as well. Half orcs have the following racial feature:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
If you were to write out a half-orc's statblock, they would be Humanoid (human, orc). Seems to me that they should be able to pick from both human and orc traits, and orcs should be able to pick half-orc traits specifically.
Not RAW, but it would be more elegant, I think.
Not necessarily.
Some half-orc traits may be the result of their being hybrids of humans and orcs - and it is not always clear which ones those are.
A half-orc trading in "Orc Ferocity" is almost always getting a good deal. Orcs, however, have the "Ferocity" trait which is much more valuable.
Are you suggesting that they are all supposed to trade in their abilities? I'm not saying Ferocity isn't sweet (it's Diehard as a racial ability, how cool is that, right?), but half orcs are just human/orcs. There shouldn't even be half-orc racial traits. They should just get to select from both human and orc traits.
I'd just like to point out flavor wise the Orcs even use Half-Orcs for leader positions due to their increased intelligence.
I'd just like to point out flavor wise the Orcs even use Half-Orcs for leader positions due to their increased intelligence.
Not surprising. Not only do half-orcs not have an Intelligence penalty, but can actually have a +2 bonus. That's a possible net +4 over an orc with the same ability array.
Thus, orcs make the best warriors, and the half orcs make the best tacticians. Sure, you might be smaller, scrawnier, and less mean than the rest of your kin, but you've got a brain for statistics, and might be able to get your rabble to defeat that legion of hardened hobgoblin veterans.
I would just assume that all options available to half-orcs are for orcs as well. Half orcs have the following racial feature:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
If you were to write out a half-orc's statblock, they would be Humanoid (human, orc). Seems to me that they should be able to pick from both human and orc traits, and orcs should be able to pick half-orc traits specifically.
Not RAW, but it would be more elegant, I think.
This is also supported by the Orcs of Golarion softcover, which specifically says that all options present in it are for both Orcs and Half-Orcs.
Orc is best orc.
Half-orc is half good.
*Grod nods sagely*