This is not a "Why Fighters Suck" thread. I don't think fighters suck, at all. I thing they are actually quite powerful (when compared to other martial characters. I do recognize the power divide between martial and magic). My big problem with the fighter is that it's...boring. The barbarian has rage and rage powers, the cavalier has challenge, tactician and some cool order abilities, and even the ranger gets spells, a potential animal companion and some cool variable abilities. And while I have made certain adjustments in my home game to the class, I'm planning on writing a re-tooled fighter for the Homebrew boards here, and I wanted more than just my opinion.
So, I come to you, the people of the Paizo messageboards and ask:
How would you change the fighter to make it a more interesting class? I don't need/want exact mechanical breakdowns, just ideas.
Please be constructive. This is meant to be a positive thread about improving a class, not complaining about its faults.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
You can do any type of combatant from any era. The fighter is versatile and interesting.
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World of Warriorcraft aka Kirthfinder is probably something for you.
But you may also check out my "Improved Fighter" (WIP)
I would certainly appreciate any input on this.
Check out the "World of Warriorcraft: Kirthfinder" thread in the houserules section (it may have slipped into the archives). That's how my group (many of whom were frequent posters in the "why fighters suck" thread) handled it.
In fact, I have all of the kirthfinder rules favorited, and have made a few changes based on it. I'm looking for all sorts of ideas, however.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
But you may also check out my "Improved Fighter" (WIP)
I would certainly appreciate any input on this.
I have downloaded your Improved Fighter, and you can be assured that I am definitely taking it into consideration.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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Fighters should be the masters of feats, in and out of combat. Effectively redoing the fighter would mean effectively doing a feat re-write to accomodate them.
For instance, using a Tome of 9 Swords trick, and allowing upgrading of feats, and having feat trees INCLUDE the feats below them, rather then just 'adding on'.
Thus, weapon spec would grant +1/+2, and override Weapon Focus. Then, you could 'upgrade' a feat by swapping up...giving a fighter more feats without actually granting him extra feats.
This is effectively almost the same as an 'autoscale' argument, i.e. Weapon Focus = the bonus of a Fighter's Weapon Training with a weapon, or +1. Thus, you could lose the whole spec tree and you've got an auto-scaling skill.
I think Fighters should be able to ignore pre-reqs on combat feats if any other class (Im looking at monks) can do the same. Fighters are THE masters of feats. Monks should not be better at them...they get supernatural and magical stuff.
Fighters should have all good saves to reflect their non-magical nature and defensive training. They don't get spells and magical boosts...all they have is training.
Fighters should get extra feats of a non-combat nature to balance out their relative lack of skill points, OR should get 4 skill points. They should also get to choose at least 2 class skills as they wish. By non-combat feats, I mean feats expressly made for skills (Skill focus, Alertness, etc) or for save boosting (Iron Will, etc)...all of which represent further training as feats rather then skill points, and which would leave Rogues the masters of skill points.
There should be a mechanism in place for a fighter swapping armor profs and shield profs for other benefits. The general nature is either a secondary stat bonus to AC, a scaling bonus to AC, or more skill points/skills.
The Armor Mastery bonus should be changed from a Dex limit increase to a straight dodge bonus. You shouldn't require a 20+ dex for a fighter to make use of his class abilities.
The DR bonus at level 19 should be a scaling bonus starting at level 3 and increasing every 4 levels, and it should stack with adamantine armor.
The anti/non-magical nature of a fighter should be built upon and not given to the barbarian. The barbarian has supernatural power sources. The fighter does not.
Bravery needs to be flat out dropped and replaced with something actually useful. A brave fighter is more susceptible to fear then a cleric, and paladins are totally immune AND make others around them immune. Having a fighter immune to fear is the value of a feat, no more, and easy enough to do.Let warriors and barbs worry about fear.
===Aelryinth
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I like the fighter as is, but I did write up a slightly revised version once.
The basic gist is that fighters get more skill points (I really don't see that breaking anything) and the fighter bonus feat is replaced by a "fighter talent" (a combat feat can of course be taken in lieu of a talent). Many fighter-only feats are re-written as fighter talents (since basically, they ARE solely fighter class features, and should therefore be written under the fighter class description and not hidden in the feats chapter). I tried to add more talents as well.
I didn't change it dramatically because the intent was that you could plug as-written archetypes into the class without issue. I imagine that people who just don't like the fighter at all will like this very much as it doesn't change a lot but my hope is the talent idea adds some more options and flavor while still keeping the fighter's modularity/versatility.
What follows is a draft; more talents need to be added and the whole thing needs to be checked and tested. I doubt the table will paste very well.
DQ's revised fighter
FIGHTER
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Table: Fighter
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighter talent
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fighter talent, bravery +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor training 1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Fighter talent
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon training 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Fighter talent, bravery +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Armor training 2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Fighter talent
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon training 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Fighter talent, bravery +3
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Armor training 3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Fighter talent
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon training 3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Fighter talent, bravery +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor training 4
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Fighter talent
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon training 4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Fighter talent, bravery +5
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Armor mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Fighter talent, weapon mastery
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: (same)
Fighter talents: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter learns talents that help him hone his martial expertise. Unless otherwise noted, a fighter talent cannot be taken more than once.
Some fighter talents have prerequisites, which must be met before the talent is taken.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new fighter talent in place of one he has already learned. This includes combat feats learned as fighter talents. In effect, the fighter loses the fighter talent in exchange for the new one. The old talent cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another talent, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one talent at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the talent at the time he gains a new fighter talent for the level.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 1:
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Acrobatic Combatant: The fighter gains Acrobatics as a class skill.
Noble Warrior: This talent can only be taken at first level. The fighter loses Intimidate and Knowledge: Dungeoneering as class skills, but gains Bluff, Diplomacy, and Knowledge: Nobility.
Combat Talent: A fighter can choose to take a combat feat instead of a fighter talent. This talent can be taken more than once, with a different feat chosen each time. Feats can be taken more than once as a combat talent if the feat normally can be taken more than once, following that feat's guidelines for its duplication (for example, Weapon Focus).
Field Medic: The fighter has learned to lend aid to his fellow combatants when they have fallen. The fighter gains Heal as a class skill. Whenever an ally falls in combat (0 hp or less), he may take an immediate action to move 5 feet toward the fallen ally. This does not provoke AOOs. If the fighter chooses to take this movement, he cannot use the Step Up feat for the next round and cannot make a 5 foot step on his next turn.
Iron Fist: The fighter’s unarmed strike damage increases to 1d4. A fighter can take this talent a second time to increase his unarmed strike damage to 1d6. This does not allow the fighter to be considered armed when making unarmed strike attacks; he still needs the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for that.
If the fighter has improved damage dice from monk levels, this talent can be taken once to improve his unarmed damage dice up the monk progression, up to and not exceeding the maximum damage a monk can deal. If the fighter had taken this feat twice to improve his unarmed strike damage and then took a level of monk, the dice would still only improve by 1 step.
Vigilant Guard: The fighter has experience as a guard and has learned to stay on the alert at all times. Perception becomes a class skill for the fighter, and the fighter gets a +1 class bonus to Initiative.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 4:
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Insulting Riposte:
Prerequisite: Noble Warrior fighter talent
Whenever the fighter makes an AOO with a melee weapon, he makes a cutting remark and adds his Charisma modifier to damage if he successfully hits. This only works on creatures which can understand the fighter, and the fighter must be able to speak to use this ability.
Shield Specialization: Choose one type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, or, if you are proficient, tower shield). With the selected shield, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class against critical hit confirmation rolls. In addition, you may add your base shield bonus (including the bonus from the Shield Focus feat if you have it, but not including enhancement bonuses) to your CMD.
At fighter level 12 or higher, you may take this talent a second time to increases this bonus to +4.
Trained Expertise: The fighter can ignore the Intelligence 13 prerequisite for the Combat Expertise feat. This also applies to any combat maneuver-based feats that branch off Combat Expertise, such as Improved Disarm.
Trip Trick: Choose one melee weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat, or in which he has weapon training. If the latter, he must be at least 6th level to take this talent. The weapon you choose must be a single type of weapon, such as "longsword," not a broad category, such as "heavy blade." The weapon cannot be a light weapon. This weapon for the fighter becomes a weapon with the Trip feature. He can apply any bonuses he normally gets to attack bonuses with this weapon to combat maneuvers to trip opponents with this weapon.
Weapon Specialization: Choose one weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat, or enhances with the weapon training ability. If the latter, he must be at least 6th level to take this talent. The weapon you choose must be a single type of weapon, such as "longsword," not a broad category, such as "heavy blade." The choice can include unarmed strikes or grapple. The fighter gains a +2 bonus to damage whenever he successfully attacks with this weapon.
This talent can be taken more than once, each time applying it to a different weapon.
This talent can also be taken a second time at 16th level to increase the damage dealt by a weapon in which a fighter is already specialized by +2, for a total of +4.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 6:
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Disruptive: The fighter learns how to harry spellcasters. The DC to cast spells defensively increases by +4 for all enemies that are within his threatened area. This increase to casting spells defensively only applies if the fighter is aware of the enemy's location and is capable of taking an attack of opportunity. If the fighter can only take one attack of opportunity per round and has already used that attack, this increase does not apply. This feat can be taken again at level 12 or after to increase the DC by a total of +6.
Smart Strike: The fighter can strike his foe with planning and precision. He may make only one attack (ranged, melee, or combat maneuver) this round (this is otherwise a standard action), but he applies his Intelligence bonus to attack and damage in addition to all normal bonuses. This can be combined with an attack made using the Vital Strike feat tree. The extra damage from the Intelligence modifier is considered precision damage and foes immune to precision damage or sneak attacks ignores the additional damage (but the fighter still gets the bonus to attack).
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 8:
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Disrupting Shot:
Prerequisite: Disruptive fighter talent
If the fighter readies an action to shoot an opponent casting a spell within 30 feet and successfully hits that opponent with a ranged attack, the concentration DC to successfully cast the spell is increased by +4.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 10:
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Soldier’s Rally:
As a full round action, the fighter delivers a war cry or rousing speech which boosts the morale of his allies. The fighter’s allies gain the benefits of his bravery class ability for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s Charisma modifier. If the fighter has Intimidating Prowess, he can substitute his Strength modifier for Charisma.
If the fighter has taken an archetype which replaces bravery, he cannot take this fighter talent except at the GM’s discretion (if the GM does allow this ability, the allies would instead gain the bonuses from the ability that replaced bravery).
Spellbreaker:
Prerequisite: Disruptive Fighter Talent
Enemies in the fighter’s threatened area that fail their checks to cast spells defensively provoke attacks of opportunity from the fighter.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 12:
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Penetrating Strike: Choose one weapon in which the fighter either has the Weapon Focus feat or weapon training. This must be a specific weapon type, such as longsword, not “heavy blade,” even if it is qualified for with weapon training. Attacks with this weapon ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction. This feat does not apply to damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—). This talent can be taken a second time at fighter level 16 or after, to increase the amount of DR the chosen weapon ignores by 5, for a total of 10.
[i]Pin Down: Whenever an opponent that the fighter threatens takes a 5-foot step or uses the withdraw action, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from the fighter. If the fighter’s attack hits, he deals no damage, but the targeted creature is prevented from making the move action that granted a 5-foot step or the withdraw action and does not move.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 14:
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Critical Mastery:
Prerequisite: Two critical feats
The fighter’s mightiest blows are doubly devastating. If the fighter has multiple critical feats, he can apply the effects of two of those feats to the attack, rather than 1.
Shield Block:
Prerequisite: Shield Specialization talent
Once per day, as long as you have equipped the type of shield in which you have specialization, you can choose to ignore a critical hit, taking normal damage instead.
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The following fighter talents can be taken starting at level 16:
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Gaping Wound:
Prerequisite: Penetrating Strike
The fighter creates a wound in a normally tough hided creature that his allies can take advantage of. If a fighter successfully deals damage to a creature with DR, he can choose as an immediate action to create a gaping wound. If he does so, all allies gain the benefit of his penetrating strike ability for one round, ending at the start of the fighter’s next turn. However, once that round is finished, the fighter’s penetrating strike ability does not work again on the same creature for the rest of that combat, neither for himself nor anyone else.
Bravery (Ex): Same as standard, with the following addition: This bonus is also added to the DC of any demoralize attempts made against the fighter.
Armor Training (Ex): (Same as in standard)
Weapon Training (Ex): (Same as in standard; I added one new weapon group:)
Staves: bo staff, club, greatclub, mere club, tonfa, quarterstaff, staff sling
Armor Mastery (Ex): (Same as in standard)
Weapon Mastery (Ex): (same as in standard)
Take or leave.
Ahh I HAD forgotten about the lack of skills. Yes. +1 to the gent who suggested +2 p/ level
I totally agree with the suggestion to give them more skill points per level.
Possibly broaden their class skills to include Knowledge (Local, Nobility, Engineering, and History). This reflects fighters who are mercenaries, nobleman or aspiring knights and who know a lot about their area and the nobility, fighters who are familiar with castle fortifications and siege engine building, and who know the history of nations such as which battles occurred, where, and why, etc. A fighter doesn't have to be just a big guy in plate who's great at swinging his weapon. Great warriors of real-world history were often extremely knowledgeable and cunning, at least when it came to battles and rulership.
I've also thought about giving them another bonus feat at 3rd level, and broadening the fighter bonus feat list to also include Alertness, Athletic, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron will.
I would also waive the Int 13 prerequisite for fighters who want to take the Combat Expertise feat, to make it easier for them to qualify for Improved Disarm, etc.
As you can see in my fighter redesign, I not only gave him 4 skill points per level but also expanded his class skill list (Perception anyone?).
I DON'T agree with anyone voting to completely drop the ability requirements for a fighter.
While I can see that INT 13 might be a tiny bit too much, I don't like to promote all this min-maxing I see in the class guides.
Fighters with int + cha 7, Paladins with int/wis 7, the list goes on.
This is simply lame munchkinism.
I will however add to my fighter, that he may lower all requirments by 2 points. I think this is a good and fair adjustment.
I wouldn't change the fighter, I'd change feats. Stuff like Weapon Finesse is a feat tax. Give them for free to all PCs - then fighters will be able to get the real ones, the feats that do cool things.
Also, there should be feats that do truly epic stuff. I want to see feats (at the end of a feat tree) that let you hew dragons in twain, run over lava and drop people dead by glaring menacingly at them. High level warriors should be as "magical" as spellcasters - in their own field.
I wouldn't change the Fighter, so much as I'd change the way many combat feats work, which would obviously serve to benefit the Fighter the most. Things like making certain feats advance by level/BAB rather than requiring multiple feats to accomplish (like Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc.) as well as a variety of others discussed ad nauseum in another thread.
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My only real complaint about the Fighter is there is little to nothing that they can do that someone else can't do too. Whether or not they do it better is irrelevant, they don't have a unique class ability to call their own.
If I was going to change the Fighter, I'd be real tempted to do something with the Combat Maneuvers, and give them unique maneuvers and cut access to certain maneuvers down to just them.
Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip obviously need to stay freely accessible, but Disarm, Sunder, Overrun, Drag, Reposition could all be Fighter only maneuvers. Steal I'd probably make a Rogue maneuver and Dirty Trick would be a Fighter/Rogue one. I'd move Feint into this as well and call it a F/R one as well.
Oh and rename Tumble and make it a CMB roll as well.
Add some skill points.
I'd also like to see them gain some of the combat maneuver feats more easily--or all of the martial classes, really. Combat maneuvers are great, though this is more my case for making combat more dynamic.
I'd honestly merge a few classes together.
I think a fighter and a ranger could be modified into a single class... assuming you ditch Ranger spellcasting, which I've always hated anyway.
I can see the ranger as a single class, but:
Fighter/Cavalier/Samurai? DEFINITELY!!!!
•More skill points
•make combat maneuvers easier to pull off
Hmm.. This combat maneuvers thing seems interesting.. While not giving them the "Improved" combat maneuvers, it'd be a nice change to be able to do them all with out the AOO normally associated.
Fighters then excel at moving enemies, disarming, grappling, etc and don't become the standard move/attack/move/attack automatons you normally see. and that would be a stand out feature...
But fighters do excel at combat maneuvers simply by the number of feats they can invest in them.
Sure, a Barbarian can get one or two whole lines of the Power Attack tree, but a Fighter can grab most of them, and another line too.
I've just never had an issue doing CMs with a fighter.
I see a pattern here. Fighters are great, though perhaps boring at times, and Feats are pretty much a pain due to the taxation (and fighters do not get enough skill points).
My group still uses the original Campaign Settings book for fighters who give up 1 feat at first level to get trained up in skills and sill points. It may have been written out in the update, but the book still says Pathfinder (even though some of the skills don't translate.
We also have the ability to drop Feats and/or Weapon specialty categories for other or extra feats (depending on how you view it)
It has been argued that 18 to 20 bonus feats are too extreme, but when I mentioned that martial weapons are actually a one for one basis the other way ... 18 to 20 sounded better than 30 something to them.
This way I didn't rewrite any rules for feats and the like, yet still took away the bite of feat taxes.
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My only real complaint about the Fighter is there is little to nothing that they can do that someone else can't do too. Whether or not they do it better is irrelevant, they don't have a unique class ability to call their own.
If I was going to change the Fighter, I'd be real tempted to do something with the Combat Maneuvers, and give them unique maneuvers and cut access to certain maneuvers down to just them.
Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip obviously need to stay freely accessible, but Disarm, Sunder, Overrun, Drag, Reposition could all be Fighter only maneuvers. Steal I'd probably make a Rogue maneuver and Dirty Trick would be a Fighter/Rogue one. I'd move Feint into this as well and call it a F/R one as well.
Oh and rename Tumble and make it a CMB roll as well.
Well nobody else get's the sheer amount of feats that a fighter gets and nobody else gets Weapon and Armor training.
Also, the fighter is supposed to fight and he does that just fine. The fighter doesn't need to have unique abilities just to make him different. The thing that makes the fighter class so great is the fact that you can have many types of fighters that all come from the same class.
the fighter is supposed to fight and he does that just fine
I respectfully disagree. The Fighter isn't supposed to fight. He's supposed to be a big fscking hero! A person Larger than Life, who's deeds will be spoken of in awe for centuries to come. Anything less than that isn't worth the bother of roleplaying. All PCs need to have the ability to move mountains, either proverbially or quite literally. And as it stands, the Fighter falls way, way short of either.
Fighters don't have enough skills, they can't full attack half of the time, have bad saves, and there are other classes that beat it at its own job(Taking hits and dealing damage). Yeah, they're a "powerful" class.
I wouldn't change a thing.
Fighters are the easiest class to DM for. All they need is something to hit with a stick.
If I want to challenge them, I put them against something they can't hit with a stick.
It's just so easy.
I guess they do fill that gap as the beginner class. -shrug- They're just a little weak is all.
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- I would like to see something similar as grit for fighter, maximum grit equal to bravery modifier + charisma bonus (if positive), being able to use it for rerolls on saves, attack rolls or certain skill checks.
- more skills and sure add perception.
Change feats :
- I would like weapon focus and specialization to affect weapon groups rather than a single weapon type.
- Vital strike and some other similar action feats could be expanded upon to make them more useful in more situations.
Grant signature moves.
Much like researching spells they could research combat moves that are not covered by current feats or differs enough from existing feats so as to be called a 'Signature Move'.
One idea I've tossed around is repurposing Bravery. I would keep the numeric progression the same, but allow the player to choose what the bonus does at 3rd level. Here are some idea:
1) Bonus one save of choice: fortitude, reflex or will.
2) Bonus to inititive and perception check to determine surprise.
3) Bonus to any one skill of choice.
4) Bonus to attack (and damage?) for attacks of opportunity.
5) Bonus to CMB and CMD.
6) Bonus to touch AC.
7) Bonus to AC for AoOs.
8) Bonus to confirm critical hits.
Obviously one could come up with many more ideas, and obviously not all of the above are equal.
I like the fighter as is, but I did write up a slightly revised version once.
The basic gist is that fighters get more skill points (I really don't see that breaking anything)
Sums my thoughts up. 3 or 4 skill points to encourage noncombat usage.
Get thinking back to 2nd Ed. didn't fighters get proficiencies at a fairly quick rate?
I wouldn't?
Come on, a feat per level. Other cool bonuses, and honestly, a Fighter with a Falcata is NASTY!
I can tell you I would not want to be on the recieving end of a 19-20/3x critical weapon... That can be dual-wielded or two-handed. Worse when it's Improved Critical or Keen...
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Bravery gives a bonus to all emotion descriptors not just fear
A choice of two extra class skills (from set backgrounds) and two extra skill points for them at level 1.
Around lvl 4, These next ones aren't very equal, but they could be toned down some. You would only get one based on the two skills you took at lvl 1.
Maybe a mount at level -3 if they chose Handel animal/nature
Maybe a banner if they took a social skill
Maybe a familiar if they took knowledge or spell craft
Maybe one sneak attack die + 1d6 every 4 levels past 4.
This is how I would change it.
i thought about dumping bravery and getting in more feats from the combat, teamwork, ironwill chain, and lighting reflexes chain. definately deserves testing before implementation but it supports the fighter as master of feats.