Combat Scenario for an archer...

[Story Archer]

Let's say I have a high level archer with the Improved Snap Shot and Staggering Critical feats (and all of the pre-req's, obviously). If a foe charges me and I use Snap Shot to AoO him at 15' and again at 10' and one of those attacks crits, inducing the Staggered condition - can he still attack me once he closes? Would it matter where he was hit, whether or not he was within Reach? Can the Staggered condition stop a full round action?

[cartmanbeck]

Hmm. Well, the staggered condition says they can't take full-round actions. The question is, when does it actually go into effect? It seems like the answer is "immediately", and if that's the case, they would be prevented from using the attack action on you, since they just did a move action, and they no longer have a leftover standard action.

Personally, though, this seems uncomfortable. In my game, I would rule that they still get their attack on you (especially since zombies can charge and make a single attack even though they're staggered, though that's because the zombie version of staggered is slightly different than the standard condition).

[Story Archer]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Personally, though, this seems uncomfortable. In my game, I would rule that they still get their attack on you (especially since zombies can charge and make a single attack even though they're staggered, though that's because the zombie version of staggered is slightly different than the standard condition).

No allowance for being able to stop a foe in its tracks? There seems to be a pretty good precedent for that...

[oneplus999]

There's nothing special about zombies being staggered. Anyone who is staggered can still charge 1x their move distance (compared to 2x move distance of someone who isn't staggered). So even if you assume that the staggered condition applies to their current turn, there'd be no problem with a 1x move charge, since they could have done that anyway.

If they were doing a charge more than 1x move? Up to the GM I guess. Personally I'd say they finish the charge. Primarily because Archers are broken enough as it is :p

PS: You only get 1 AOO, unless there's something special about snap shot feats that I'm not seeing? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity
"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent"

[Story Archer]

oneplus999 wrote:

There's nothing special about zombies being staggered. Anyone who is staggered can still charge 1x their move distance (compared to 2x move distance of someone who isn't staggered). So even if you assume that the staggered condition applies to their current turn, there'd be no problem with a 1x move charge, since they could have done that anyway.

If they were doing a charge more than 1x move? Up to the GM I guess. Personally I'd say they finish the charge. Primarily because Archers are broken enough as it is :p

PS: You only get 1 AOO, unless there's something special about snap shot feats that I'm not seeing? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity
"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent"

That's a good correction, not sure how I missed that.

You can charge as a standard action? I ask because its my understanding that you can only combine a move and an attack as a full action, something the Staggered condition does not allow.

[Vrischika111]

you can charge as a std action ONLY if you(re somehow limited to std action on your turn.

you cannot chose to carge as std action if you have your full-round action available.

[Ughbash]

I would say the foe gets to continue the charge. If you count him as staggered the entire round he could not have charged in the first place since charge is a full round action.

[james maissen]

Vrischika111 wrote:

you can charge as a std action ONLY if you(re somehow limited to std action on your turn.

you cannot chose to carge as std action if you have your full-round action available.

Which is patently silly. I tend to normally 'house rule' that one can restrict themselves to a standard action instead of a full round action for a given round should they wish to charge as a standard action.

It makes no sense to me that having a debilitating effect (staggered or slowed) would empower someone to have abilities that they wouldn't normally have.

To answer your question (after the slight correction that one can take an AOO based on movement only once in a round), I tend to rule that a character's actions during the round have to remain consistent with what they've already accomplished in the round.

Thus someone slowed after they've made a move action would not have a standard remaining. And in your case a charging PC staggered would not be able to complete a 2x move charge (though they could complete a 1x move charge as they could have done that while staggered).

-James

[oneplus999]

james maissen wrote:

Vrischika111 wrote:

you can charge as a std action ONLY if you(re somehow limited to std action on your turn.

you cannot chose to carge as std action if you have your full-round action available.

Which is patently silly. I tend to normally 'house rule' that one can restrict themselves to a standard action instead of a full round action for a given round should they wish to charge as a standard action.

It makes no sense to me that having a debilitating effect (staggered or slowed) would empower someone to have abilities that they wouldn't normally have.

Ehh...? This isn't making any sense. In no way are you empowered. The point is just that charging takes your whole turn, whether you are staggered or not. You are still impacted by the staggered effect, since you can only do a 1x move charge. Letting someone "restrict themselves to a standard action" accomplishes nothing, except making their max charge distance lower.

[Grick]

oneplus999 wrote:

Letting someone "restrict themselves to a standard action" accomplishes nothing, except making their max charge distance lower.

It allows them to ready a partial charge.

[james maissen]

oneplus999 wrote:

Ehh...? This isn't making any sense. In no way are you empowered. The point is just that charging takes your whole turn, whether you are staggered or not. You are still impacted by the staggered effect, since you can only do a 1x move charge. Letting someone "restrict themselves to a standard action" accomplishes nothing, except making their max charge distance lower.

When I'm under the slow spell and debilitated by it I can ready to charge a foe. When I'm at my top form, I cannot do so.

-James

[Dennis Baker]

So have your party wizard cast slow on you, or drink a potion of slow. Problem solved.

[james maissen]

Dennis Baker wrote:

So have your party wizard cast slow on you, or drink a potion of slow. Problem solved.

Yes empower me by casting that debilitating spell on me...

My problem is not with how could a player do it.. but that the game rules (the game world's laws of physics) allow such.

It attacks my sense of verisimilitude in the game when the staggered, surprised, slowed PCs are more capable than the PC in top form. It doesn't make any sense. If one can ready a charge the other should be allowed to do so.

-James

[oneplus999]

So do any of you actually let staggered players ready a charge or are you just trolling?

[Dennis Baker]

Who cares?

Characters are staggered what... one tenth of a percent of the time? The chances they will want to ready an action during that time are staggeringly slim. The impact on the game as a whole? Zero.

I've never had a player ask and I doubt I ever will. If it ever happened, they can consider it a rare gift.

[Vrischika111]

james maissen wrote:

Dennis Baker wrote:

So have your party wizard cast slow on you, or drink a potion of slow. Problem solved.

Yes empower me by casting that debilitating spell on me...

My problem is not with how could a player do it.. but that the game rules (the game world's laws of physics) allow such.

It attacks my sense of verisimilitude in the game when the staggered, surprised, slowed PCs are more capable than the PC in top form. It doesn't make any sense. If one can ready a charge the other should be allowed to do so.

-James

how are you empowered ? O_O

charge = full round, move x2.
exception if you're limited to std action = you can still charge, but move x1

you cannot ready a charge, unless you take the feat : Rhino charge (requires bab+5, power attack, improved bull rush): you can ready a charge

[james maissen]

Vrischika111 wrote:

how are you empowered ? O_O

charge = full round, move x2.
exception if you're limited to std action = you can still charge, but move x1

you cannot ready a charge, unless you take the feat : Rhino charge (requires bab+5, power attack, improved bull rush): you can ready a charge

When surprised/slowed/staggered a PC can charge as a standard action. Thus they can ready to charge.

Dennis:
They make a special rule for charging when in these situations. If it doesn't merit anything special then simply remove it. But if it's worth a special rule, then why should we not want the rule to be internally consistent?

-James

[Dennis Baker]

Being able to charge as a standard action is useful to the game because otherwise it makes staggered a much much nastier condition. Similarly, charging in the surprise round is useful because it means when you get the jump on someone you can actually... benefit from it.

That it has a side effect which kicks in once ever million combats or so is irrelevant.

[james maissen]

Dennis Baker wrote:

That it has a side effect which kicks in once ever million combats or so is irrelevant.

We differ in opinion there.

I find it quite relevant and its existence as disrupting to verisimilitude. The concept that you gain options by being subjected to penalties just is wrong.

-James

[oneplus999]

Solution? Read the rules the way they were obviously intended, and don't let staggered players ready a charge.