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So I am running a pathfinder Eberron campaign and my party is 15th level and can easily dispatch a CR 20. Ive used different tactics and I have thrown lower level creatures with added HD and masses of non advanced creatures and nothing seems to work. I am trying to find a balance. I either almost TPK or the party wins the encounter in one round or two. Ive tried lots of good DM tricks but it still comes down to who wins initiative which is always the party or trying to avoid a TPK. I need some tips on how to get the encounters to last say about 5 rounds. That's not too much to ask even at high level is it? If I cant find a balance I am afraid I will have to run them to 20th really wuick and just end the campaign because everyone acknowledges that there are major problems.
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Unfortunately they have 30 point buy, we have a human paladin, a human psion, a human witch, a human wizard, a human cleric, a half orc cleric. They are all good aligned too. They each have a legacy weapon or item because we had the book and wanted to not waste the 30 bucks we spent and use it. The legacy weapons are kinda op but not killer. I guess all of it together is crazy. Its an old campaign I ran back in the day and everyone finally got back together to finish it. It was a time when I had the problem of giving out too much but I restarted them back out with 14th level gear instead of 15th.
keep CR as they are
give baddies max hp
Can you post their builds? At the least, approximations of things like saves bonuses, AC, to-hit, initiative, and class.
I will also add that some stuff from Eberron, like the Were-touched Master was not balanced well, even though I really like the setting.
Can you also post a description of one or two encounters?
PS:I do agree that the game changes at higher levels.
I also never try to make a fight last more than 3 rounds. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.
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The wizard is a summoner with all the summoning feats and a 27 intel.
The Cleric is 27 wis and heals.
The other cleric somehow has a 27 wis and a 30 str with rage and all these other rediculous abilities to give the rest of the party +8 initiative
The witch has a 27 intel and his hexes are insanely powerful
the paladin is a good paladin no problems with him besides the 38 ac and 41 while smiting
the psion is all intel and i dont mind him in the least as he just does his 15d6 damage a round and quicken for another 9d6 damage a round
nobody's will save is under 15
all reflex saves are at least 15
all fort saves are at least 15
Some will saves are as high as 26
no eberron stuff has been allowed except the dragonmark feat
I threw a balor with elemental traits and the party blasted it and beat it down in 3 rounds while it killing two party members with a full round attack
I thew a group of cr 12 qlippoths cant remember their name and one of them was advanced templated and one person failed the gaze and the creatures never hit anyone once.
I threw a slaughterking kython and 3 slaymaster kythons right from the book of vile darkness after converting them to pathfinder and it was a slaughter. the creatures failed save after save and all of them but one were turned into bunnies or racoons by the witch and the slaughterking was killed very fast after that. I also gave these creatures the corrupted creature template which makes all of their attacks do vile damage of 7 to 9.
Well you did give them 30 point buy. The game default is between 15 and 20...
They might be well beyond their Wealth By Level. We won't know unless we see some equipment of course.
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This is one of those things that's nigh impossible to fix once you've broken it.
We can help you create encounters to marginaize their strengths and challenge their weaknesses but that's rarely fun more than once for players.
We can encourage you to run less combat and spend more time with RP and puzzle encounters but that's not really a good long-term solution either.
I guess you need to ask yourself a few questions.
A) Are the players having fun chewing through everything?
B) Are you still having fun even though all your encounters are a joke?
C) If the answer to both A and B is Yes. Why is this a problem?
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I do not have their builds available to show all of you but I am hearing that the 30 points is way too high and magic items are probably a bit out of control.
I am certain that my group will change to save the campaign as we are just in the test phase of getting back into it again. We just do not know if high level play is just that way or if these other things really hurt it that much.
Well, you can always take away their magic. It's got to be difficult, but if you have some high-level absurdly powerful archvillain who kidnaps them, strips them of their wealth, and then boots them off to another plane of existence ... or maybe that just works on a party without a lot of casters. It certainly worked on us, back in the day ... hm.
Let me ask this: Why do you need to wait until 20th? If everyone agrees that things are broken, why not have one last retirement session in which they get to do all those things they've been meaning to do, and then start new characters?
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If we agree to keep it going and continue it was meant for 30th as I built this module with nothing else to do in the military years ago. Last time we played they also were gestalt on top of everything else. I find it a bit rediculous as I am telling you all this but thats the way I visioned it out before.
If they agree that things are out of hand and but want to keep playing the same, or basically the same, characters, you could see if everyone can agree to a few alterations.
For one thing, it sounds like you all tried Legacy Weapons/Items thing mainly because you invested in the book. While that's probably a good reason to try something, it's not a good reason to remain wedded to it if it's not working out in your campaign. So, ditch legacy weapons/items thing and substitute something similar but not quite as powerful (so of someone built their character around having, say a legacy longsword, replace it with a "regular" magical longsword; if feat & ability adjustments need to be made as a result of this, allow them to be made as long as they don't result in an equally disruptive build).
Agreed. Nerfing the point buy to 20, nerfing the legacy weapons to regular magic items and nerfing their gear closer to wealth by level would be a good start.
Altering some challenges so they're non-combat encounters might help some. Then the party's damage potential doesn't apply at least some of the time. The group has to enjoy that though.
The wizard is a summoner with all the summoning feats and a 27 intel.
The Cleric is 27 wis and heals.
The other cleric somehow has a 27 wis and a 30 str with rage and all these other rediculous abilities to give the rest of the party +8 initiative
The witch has a 27 intel and his hexes are insanely powerful
the paladin is a good paladin no problems with him besides the 38 ac and 41 while smiting
the psion is all intel and i dont mind him in the least as he just does his 15d6 damage a round and quicken for another 9d6 damage a round
nobody's will save is under 15
all reflex saves are at least 15
all fort saves are at least 15Some will saves are as high as 26
no eberron stuff has been allowed except the dragonmark feat
Are you using any other 3.5 books?
What ridiculous abilities does the cleric have? You as the GM should not have to have it memeorized, but you should have a general idea of how it works.
I threw a balor with elemental traits and the party blasted it and beat it down in 3 rounds while it killing two party members with a full round attack
Is there a large difference of power between players. I am assuming the paladin was a part of why the balor went down in 3 rounds. Could you give a more detailed example of what happened?
Well you did give them 30 point buy. The game default is between 15 and 20...
They might be well beyond their Wealth By Level. We won't know unless we see some equipment of course.
I missed that part. 30 point buy is not standard for PF. The highest rules legal version is 25, but most of us use 15 or 20.
I do not have their builds available to show all of you but I am hearing that the 30 points is way too high and magic items are probably a bit out of control.
I am certain that my group will change to save the campaign as we are just in the test phase of getting back into it again. We just do not know if high level play is just that way or if these other things really hurt it that much.
What is the highest level you have GM'd or the party has played before this one? If you are not using to high level play it is better if you play up to it than just start at high level.
Unfortunately they have 30 point buy, we have a human paladin, a human psion, a human witch, a human wizard, a human cleric, a half orc cleric. They are all good aligned too. They each have a legacy weapon or item because we had the book and wanted to not waste the 30 bucks we spent and use it. The legacy weapons are kinda op but not killer. I guess all of it together is crazy. Its an old campaign I ran back in the day and everyone finally got back together to finish it. It was a time when I had the problem of giving out too much but I restarted them back out with 14th level gear instead of 15th.
You have 6 players, a 30 point buy, and ridiculous items. Of course they will destroy everything.
1. Reduce everyone to a 15 point buy.
2. Up the CR for having additional players
3. Remove the legacy weapons
4. Review their items and make sure they aren't over WBL. If they are remove items
The wizard is a summoner with all the summoning feats and a 27 intel.
The Cleric is 27 wis and heals.
The other cleric somehow has a 27 wis and a 30 str with rage and all these other rediculous abilities to give the rest of the party +8 initiative
The witch has a 27 intel and his hexes are insanely powerful
the paladin is a good paladin no problems with him besides the 38 ac and 41 while smiting
nobody's will save is under 15
all reflex saves are at least 15
all fort saves are at least 15
The Wizard will have a lower Int. Its a full round to summon.
The Cleric will have a lower wis and he is healing. Not an issue.The Other Cleric sounds like he has a level of Marshal. If he does get rid of it. Its a very broken one level dip.
The Witch will have lower Int and his Hexes should have lower DCs
The Paladin will have less wealth and his AC shouldnt be an issue if you throw things that ignore AC (Grapple, Trip, Touch Attacks, spells, ect.)
The saves will drop with you PB.
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Ive ran the entire second darkness and crimson throne.
Power is a big difference between players. The witch and the battle cleric are way more op than the other cleric or the wizard.
Magic item compendiun is the only other book I am using and I am thinking about getting rid of it too.
The cleric can rage and he casts rage. Divine power with righteous might and he has an ability to give the entire party +8 initiative and everyone took the lookout feat because the wizard acts in the surprise round no matter what.
Ive ran the entire second darkness and crimson throne.
Power is a big difference between players. The witch and the battle cleric are way more op than the other cleric or the wizard.
Magic item compendiun is the only other book I am using and I am thinking about getting rid of it too.
The cleric can rage and he casts rage. Divine power with righteous might and he has an ability to give the entire party +8 initiative and everyone took the lookout feat because the wizard acts in the surprise round no matter what.
The steps I described should even out the Power gap between players.
Get rid of the Magic item Compendium
If your cleric wants to spend two rounds buffing let him. Get rid of whatever is giving the party the +8 initiative.
Give your monster full hp, give some armor to the ones who can wear it, same for some resistance items or spells. Change their feats to suit your style and give them minions or hostages. Use traps in the combat room and spells that don't use save or touch attack (e.g. wave of exhaustion).
If your monster are buffed before the combat maybe they can hold their gound for some time.
Nerfing your point buy to 15 would just seems spiteful at this point, though it certainly would weaken them. The Paladin would get to know what it's like to need more than 2 stats in a 15 point buy (so much fun >_>) and the casters would just be a lot more glasscannony than usual but probably keep most their offensive capabilities. Still... meh. If you really wanted to I'd say go to either 20 or 25, as it still hurts a bit but isn't so much a slap in the face.
As someone mentioned before, if everyone is having fun being larger than life heroes who stomp their enemies for the great justice, then them dominating encounters is not really an issue to begin with.
It sounds like you and your group are in agreement that things need to be changed. The first step would be to bring everyone down to the "Standard" 15 point buy. You already have 6 players, 4 of whom are full casters (considered the most powerful classes in the game). 15 point buy and 14th level WBL will still produce a VERY powerful party! You didn't mention hp, but I wouldn't give the party any boosts there either.
Whatever is giving the party +8 to initiative should be axed as well.
I would also suggest putting some limits on stat boosting items, and perhaps limiting some other magic items as well.
In terms of encounters, I would never throw less then 3 opponents at a time against the party. In most combats, there should be at least one opponent that has magic (and anti-magic) abilities. Remember that some types of encounters (non-flyers, some undead, etc.) are not even speed bumps for a group like this. I would also add some weak opponents who are just fodder for their more powerful attacks. It doesn't matter if you can do 150 damage with a single hit if the monster as 20 hp.
The last bit of advice I would give is to add a few levels of monk to their opponents. First off you alter the creatures abilities by +4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2, and it gets upgrade to NPC wealth for it's new CR. Put the +4's into con and wis. Advancing a monster with 2 levels of monk will increase it's saves by +5/+4/+5, give it two bonus feats, wis to AC, evasion, lots of hp, 2 stunning fist attacks, flurry, etc. All for +1 CR!
PS Don't give the enemies max hp! This will just screw over the party members who are trying to melee and blast, and push them more toward save or suck type tactics. The "hit ac/deal damage/repeat" system is a lot more geared toward longer, less swingy combats then the "failed save/loot" system.
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I'd honestly say drop to 20, not 15. I've always felt 15 was too restrictive and admittedly, halving their point buy total is quite a pill to swallow.
Personally, I'd just start a new game. Level one, 20 point buy, boom!
The last bit of advice I would give is to add a few levels of monk to their opponents. First off you alter the creatures abilities by +4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2, and it gets upgrade to NPC wealth for it's new CR. Put the +4's into con and wis. Advancing a monster with 2 levels of monk will increase it's saves by +5/+4/+5, give it two bonus feats, wis to AC, evasion, lots of hp, 2 stunning fist attacks, flurry, etc. All for +1 CR!
That only goes so far as it makes sense for the enemies to have that background. If they don't and you give it to them anyway, it's like why bother when as the DM you could just give them arbitrary abilities beyond the rules anyway, so why bother trying to shakily justify it by saying "well they're monks too".
That only goes so far as it makes sense for the enemies to have that background. If they don't and you give it to them anyway, it's like why bother when as the DM you could just give them arbitrary abilities beyond the rules anyway, so why bother trying to shakily justify it by saying "well they're monks too".
Agreed. It only really makes sense if they are Lawful anyway. Also, it takes some time to stat up, so isn't something you are going to want to do all the time. But a few bone devils with monk levels is going to be an interesting encounter...
I don't have any problems with high stats, as long as they heven't dumped any.
I have done a fair bit of high level play and enjoy it (I am usually the GM).
What kind of tactics are you using? From the sounds of things, your PCs seem to be able to get off full round attacks.
I posted this in another thread, but I think it is relevant here too, though you will have to adjust the spells a bit.
Some better options would be:
1) to put in terrain - most people forget about difficult terrain and terrain features that restrict movement (half-walls, pits, rivers, squeezing tunnels, unstable floors, weak/collapsing floors, etc). Terrain will help a lot in reducing full round attacks.
2) The use of creatures that can trip - wolves, tripmasters, etc.
3) Ray spells - Ray of Enfeeblement, Exhaustion, Sickening
4) Sight line control tactics - Smokesticks, obscuring mist spell, etc.. to reduce vision to 5', makes it hard to moves fast, or to avoid traps, etc..
5) Incapacitating spells - command, daze, deep slumber, hideous laughter, hold person, etc. (kept at 4th level or below spells to be as powerful as the confusion spell in your example)
6) Inconveniencing tactics - disarm, reposition, steal, sunder, traps, etc.
7) Defensive spells - blur, displacement, fireshield, mirror image, stoneskin, etc.
8) Misdirection - have things not be what they appear to be. Examples: Describe an enlarge full plate NPC with oversized gauntlets coming to attack them, don’t say that it’s an Iron Golem; The tower shield full plate opponent that seems to be resistant to damage, and keeps drinking potions of healing, but what with the potions and the shield, can’t seem to hit anyone - is a hidden mage using major image; the Finger of Death spell attacks in the market - it may be hard to identify them coming from a shrieking monkey, especially if the PCs have seen organgrinder and his shrieking monkey several times already.The above are a few ways of making something challenging to the PG, and if one technique is not abused, they can ensure that everyone has fun (the GM should make sure that the character that you consider OP has their time to shine as well as everyone else).
If you have some prep time, you may want to consider using lower level creatures with class levels to bring them up to be a challenge to the PCs.
I have played a very similar sounding game to the OP and also encountered very similar issues. The biggest issue that I encountered hands down was stats getting way out of control. Once the stats get into mid 20s the effect on the game system is significant. Its not game breaking, but your PCs are far beyond the games baseline assumptions. Spell casters have a large amount of bonus spells allowing for extensive buffing and combat control. Way beyond the baseline expectation for the CR calculations in any event. Melee characters with huge strengths start stacking large bonuses from power attack, two handed fighting and the like. My PCs were able to fight up 5 CR easily. Simply having stats closer to 18 makes a huge difference. Do the math.
The second issue I encountered was the action economy. It is mainly for martial characters. Being able to reliably get off full attacks against a single target is devastating at that level. Imagine if you could halve or third the melee damage output? You can quite easily by preventing the use of full round attacks. This is really hard against single targets that are not hugely mobile. The easiest way I found was to give the monsters high mobility. As mentioned above terrain and other things you have to do in combat are also great options. As much heresy as it is on these boards, 4e encounter building rules gives some great inspiration here.
Lastly, and this is the thing I struggled with the most, Pathfinder is a "Superhero" system at those levels, unless you massively alter the rules. And even then? You just have to accept this and understand it. What does this mean? Well as a GM you need to really really know the high level elements of the system. This is not something I was very familiar with. I knew about goblins and giants, but far less about demons, proteans and the other high level enemies. Get as many high level monster manuals you can get and study them. Understand the 15-20 level powers of all classes. Super high level magic items and effects. Make up your own nasty stuff. And throw them at your players. Hard. You must not be scared of TPKs. At that level kill them all. Rez them as prisoners of the enemies trapped on the astral plane stripped of their equipment. Go nuts. That is what Pathfinder at high level is for better or worse. Trying to tell a linear story with the usual DnD tropes is gone. Everyone surviving is no longer an assumption. You have to become super flexible as a GM.
Lastly I want to mention something which is a pet peeve of mine. Paizo support of high level play is pretty sparse. A GMG 2 aimed at levels 15+ with solid advice on how to GM a high level game would be a welcome thing indeed for me. But unfortunately the commercial viability is unknown. This leads to a catch 22 situation where high level Pathfinder is considered broken. Paizo could definately improve this situation but seems to be unwilling to at the moment which for me is very sad as the high levels of the game is really where you can let loose. Laying siege to the city of brass? Fighting demon lords in the abyss? Journeying to the deepest part of the Darklands? Sounds cool to me.
Anti-magic field, or Mage's disjunction could be useful.
One more question tho, how are they acting? are they bored/excited/looking for more, or are they being jerks to the npcs and thew like?
I knew about goblins and giants, but far less about demons, proteans and the other high level enemies.
In 3.5E & especially 4E TS. . .er, WotC went away from high-level monsters having multiple abilities, on the grounds that a variety of abilities were difficult to keep track of.
PF seems to not have gone down that direction, though - thankfully. So that also means I want to give +1 to what Alan is saying here; know all the abilities high-level threats have. If they don't have some of the ones you need. . .add them as an "advanced/special ability" (before the encounter starts, that is. Don't add anything to an encounter already underway).
You might be surprised how strong some monsters can be when played creatively. Players certainly will, at least the first couple times.
But unfortunately the commercial viability is unknown.
alas, it is known, or at least the developers/guys who sign the paychecks know/think they know - and the viability is relatively bad. Most campaigns play at lower levels, and campaigns (though not groups) peter out by or before 15th-16th level. This seems to be the reason why APs chopped off the top levels (remember: APs, originally, used to go to 11...er, 20-21st level).
High-level modules, epic things, and the like are thus only considered publishable as "rarities" (something people might get excited about playing because they otherwise never do). But Paizo in particular seems to have consciously decided that there would not be enough fan interest in high-level stuff, so they focus on where most people play most of the time.
I'm not criticizing the decision. It makes sense. But like you I'd like to see higher level stuff; especially in the form of a DM guidebook helping DMs keep campaigns challenging, and thus fun, at higher levels. That might then spark interest; as it stands now, it's apparent that a majority of the gaming community believes "the game breaks down at high levels" - and with apparently good reason; the reason of experience. A guidebook that helped fix this would or at least could fix the perception as well, and then the commercial viability would be there too.
but as it stands now they don't support it extensively because most potential buyers think the game stops being viable at that level, and one reason it does stop being viable is relatively little developer attention is given to that level of play and addressing the problems with it, for the good reason that relatively few people play at those levels so it makes sense to devote scarce resources (creative time) to the levels of play at which people campaign, and so on in a circular spiral.
If you don't want to force rebuilds maybe start giving every gearless monster 3.5 Vow of Poverty
*wishes I had thought of this*
I built a couple monsters with that Feat back in the day. If you do this, the monsters will be so badarse the PCs might not know what hit 'em.
They'll totally murder you when they find out the badarse monsters they just met have no treasure whatsoever, either, because they took this vow, you see. . .
Oh, the lulz! Plus, this will be a good way to "naturally" (that is, without meta-seizure of items and cash) returning the party to an appropriate WBL if they are currently over it. A bunch of encounters where the monsters have taken vows that leave no treasure behind. . .